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Apologies for the wall of text.

TL;DR

PCF needs to follow EA's example by communicating better with the playerbase, preferably with a Community Manager much like /u/F8RGE. Be candid about the issues, address our concerns with more than "We're working on it" and provide concrete roadmaps of what's being updated, when, and why. Elsewise their future releases will not be big as too many people will just pass or at least wait awhile to see if it's worth it.


Outriders is currently a bug-filled trainwreck, and the "attempts" at patching the issues have gone horribly, horribly awry. The game should never have been shipped in this condition, it was not ready at all, with testing results being just ignored in the boardroom. Any way you look at it, we got screwed into paying AAA price for a B+ game. The outrage is real, and deserved.

Problem is: Outriders has potential. Pre-patch, if you could get logged in and if your inventory hadn't been wiped, you could play the game and enjoy yourself. It was fun. The Acari Spider fight is a blast (wish Outriders had more bosses/mini-bosses like that one, actually), and I actually enjoy doing the Wanted & Hunts repeatedly, it lets me try out new builds and weapons in a fun environment. Even the Expeditions were fun. Sure, you may have to run 20 or so to get that perfect loot piece you were looking for, but at least you'd accomplish it. Not a lot of content, but it was there.

In a perfect scenario, the lack of content would be rectified by new modes and activities added by DLCs. If things had gone well, Outriders: the Definitive Edition could've been a worthy addition to any library.

But it's not a perfect scenario, is it? The current status is best summed up as "dumpster fire", IMHO. However, if PCF is willing to put in some elbow grease and eat a bit of humble pie, they can still turn it around. And I'll use Star Wars Battlefront II (2017) as an example.

Even though I'm sure we're all aware of the debacle that was the BFII launch, I'll sum it up for those who aren't. When EA/Dice released BFII, there were bug issues, balance issues, and most infamously, progress was tied to random lootboxes, which you could earn in-game, but it was far far easier and quicker to just buy a bunch and gamble on what you got. It was seen as pay-to-win, and really sparked controversy of whether it was legitimately gambling being marketed to kids. The backlash was immediate, intense, and got media coverage. I'm sure Disney stepped in at some point and said "Listen, this is our IP you're f*cking up, so...fix it or we get our lawyers involved." And their lawyers are probably more numerous and better-paid than EA's.

Now, keep in mind that BFII was supposed to be a GaaS setup. They intended to get residuals from the lootbox sales, and probably expansions (Buy The Force Awakens DLC and play on 2 new maps, with new characters!) Instead, they canned all plans of that, made progression much better by having you earn new abilities through milestones and kills, and cleared up most of the worst bugs ASAP. Essentially turning it into what Outriders was supposed to be, a non-GaaS game, albeit focused on multi-player vs solo play.

The thing is, that wasn't what saved BFII. By the time they'd managed to do that, they had lost a HUGE amount of their players already. And yet, four years later, BFII still thrives. And that was due in no small part to the one thing that PCF needs right now: A good Community Manager.

When EA made Ben Walke (/u/F8RGE) the community manager, he and his team managed to bring a toxic, EA-hating community back into the fold. He did that by communicating with the fanbase. Of course lots of times he could not go into detail, but even then, he made us feel like he (and by extension, the company) at least understood why we were upset, that our concerns mattered, and that they would be addressed. Which for the most part, they did. Over time, the game improved, Dice fixed the most glaring bugs, and added new content (all for free!). Possibly the only "cash grab" after that was the release of a version w/almost all the skins already unlocked. And that happened because...the playerbase was growing again.

As of the beginning of 2021, the BFII playerbase had grown so much that EA increased the number of servers to keep up. A four-year old game, one whose release had possibly the worst public backlash, and from the company that has, to date, the most downvoted comment on Reddit. How did that happen?

Because once they began communicating properly with the players, they made a fun game that did what it was originally advertised to do. The remaining loyal players were having so much fun, their non-playing friends decided to check it out again, and stayed.

If PCF truly wants to succeed here, they should follow suit. Have a "face" for us to talk to, a go-between that understands what the players want, but also knows the corporate landscape. One who could "translate" between us so that we're in the loop on what is going to be fixed/added/changed, and to get our opinions on what should be addressed first. Monthly "Community Transmissions" on the status of things and a roadmap of upcoming changes, Q&A sessions to get more information flowing back and forth, etc. And explicitly acknowledging that the current state of things is wrong, and following through with promises made.

If they do that, I feel that Outriders could become the game that was advertised. And if PCF learns from this experience, other PCF releases could actually have a real future with people willing to believe that PCF can deliver their promises. We all stumble now and then, the real integrity here would be to acknowledge the mistakes, provide clear information on the timeline to get it fixed, and be open about the problems they're having. Right now all we have is the fallout of unknown changes to the game, and no information on why it seems they can't get it together and instead are making things worse. Until that changes, I don't care if it's PCF Poland or PCF Chicago, or PCF , I won't buy another of their games until well after release to make sure it's not another sub-par job.

Thank you for your time

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almost 3 years ago - /u/thearcan - Direct link

Originally posted by arzanp

yeah agree. His hands are definitely tied.

Truth be told, nobody in any team is purposefully trying to limit what we (or I) am allowed to say or talk about. There is no one at PCF or SE telling me that I can't say or talk about certain things.

My style has been developed from on my personal experiences with communities more than anything. As /u/DocDevice pointed out, this isn't my first rodeo. I'm 8 years into CM'ing at this point (If I'm not mistaken).

If you want to understand why I tend to be careful in what I say, look no further than the below example.

/u/DocDevice When you talk about my fears of being "quoted out of context", I must ask: Were you checking this sub actively a few weeks ago when I talked about how we were looking at the multiplayer situation?

I gave as transparent a view as I could of the situation from our side. I was open and honest.

My reply was entirely misinterpreted by certain elements in the community and an entire week was spent where this sub and thereafter content creators and their audiences quite literally misquoted me. And by misquoted I mean literal "The devs don't give a sh*t about us, look at what they said" kind of thread titles. We as an entire team were demonized based on hot takes that were entirely untrue. Me being open and honest, did more harm than good at that point in time.

Even when I set the record straight with a follow up reply at the time, many players in the community didn't seem to care. Bad faith hot takes continued and got far more visibility and upvotes than the truth.

If there is anyone preventing me from being open and honest at this point and providing more information, it's not anyone internal on PCF or SE side. It's the bad faith actors.

And no - that isn't me saying that people don't have a right to be upset about issues or that they don't have a right to be angry that things may not be as expected.

Me being cautious of course comes on top of the fact that I having spent every waking day since before the Demo released being an active and public facing Outriders CM. (As an aside, my role as CM is far more than just sitting on reddit or Twitter firing off witty replies).

Since launch, because of the issues we've faced, I've worked through weekends and long nights supporting Outriders as best I can. And when I take a couple days off for myself (during a weekend for example), I usually come back to a deluge of complaints that we've stopped communicating and that we've abandoned the game. All of which are very highly upvoted, indicating a general agreement amongst the community. So I find it difficult to take time away from work to recharge, because in doing so, any supposed communication problems are exacerbated.

At this point in time I am pretty exhausted. That's not anyone's fault and no one at Square Enix or PCF is forcing me (or has ever asked me) to work this much.

It's entirely my choice. It always has been.

But in this state, I return to my role every day. And every day I feel like more and more like we cannot win no matter what we (or I) do or say. This week's restoration is a good example of this.

On top of that, I will occasionally read threads (such as this one) & posts pointing out what a terrible job I'm doing. How awful our communication is. How, despite having posted an average of 1-2 megathreads (which all require a lot of work and prep) and numerous individual replies per week since launch - I'm not communicating properly.

When I then review this thread in particular, I must ask myself whether the author has spent a decent amount of time in this sub, since if they had they would have seen the numerous stickied threads by myself? All with the big Square Enix Official News flair. All addressing the big issues the community is facing at one time or another.

To be clear - I'm not having a go at you /u/DocDevice. You're certainly not the first person to point out communication deficiencies nor will you be the last. I know you probably wrote this thread with the best intentions, even if some parts of it are entirely misinformed (such as the "testing results being just ignored in the boardroom" quote*).*

This is all making it very tough, especially in an my current state, for me to keep up my motivation, my cadence of replies and in turn to communicate as you want us to (and as you deserve to).

This isn't me trying to be a victim or ask for sympathy. This isn't me telling people to not voice their concerns about genuine issues or to keep us honest. I'm not saying that people don't have a right to vent their grievances.

This is me simply explaining my own human limits.

There you go - some real talk :)

As a final word - posts like yours above /u/arzanp, where I can see that there are people who do still appreciate the work we / I do and who do see that we / I haven't vanished into the ether and can point that out to other posters... those are the posts that have helped and continue to help me push on through. They do more than you can imagine. And I do know that there are many more people like you in this community. You are all appreciated :)

almost 3 years ago - /u/thearcan - Direct link

Originally posted by DocDevice

First of all, thanks for the brutal candor here, I really do appreciate it! If nothing else, the fact you took the time to write such a comprehensive reply shows how much you are invested in us. Thank you for that.

And thank you also for the "inside glimpse" into your job. Being the one out in front dealing directly with customers is always exhausting, and most don't have to deal with 10 thousand at a time! Seeing the Catch 22 you have with getting downtime to recharge actually making things worse, I can see how frustrating it is for you.

So, to answer the question: Yes, I was around. And I did see the out-of-contexters. To be honest, I'm used to those, and I guess I'm unusual in that I go to the source material before I get all worked up and indignant. I was the kid that knew the Dewey Decimal system by heart, I always check references! :D I usually downvote those sumbitches. (Not that it seems to do much good, but I do my part.)

As for the sticky posts, I'll be straight up sorry, I have no idea why it didn't click that the same person who posts those is our CM. Accept my sincerest apologies, and my thanks again to /u/arzanp for getting me straightened out. They are beautifully formatted, and I know how much work it takes to get Reddit formatting looking good! My only criticism there is mostly they seem dry, but that's understandable in the context of how flooded you are right now.

On that note, I caught your comment on the It's Friday! post and to be frank, it hits exactly the right tone, IMHO. You explained the process of the patching, gave the reasons why PCF went forward with publishing it, and even advised that in the future, PCF will be more cautious due to the lesson learned. On top of that, it actually came across as leveling with us person-to-person, and not something "corporate-approved". It's perfect! If some troll wants to pick that apart to create some drama, I say f**k 'em. That was quality responding right there.

The one thing I'd like to point out is, I'm not "misinformed" on the boardroom details, I'm "uninformed". We still don't know why it was decided to go ahead with the release when such huge issues were known back during the demo. Without more details, all I have is conjecture. I'll admit, I don't know how it is in PCF, and I may be casting an undeserved "EA" light on the upper management. After all, you did reply to a tweet on Apr 3 that once things settled down we'd get a "post-mortem". (I'm a Twitter fuddy-duddy, if that's already been posted, please feel free to throw me the link.) If that post-mortem goes into the same level of detail as the comment above, I think we'll get the answers we were looking for.

I'll wrap this up saying I am thankful for this bounty of humble pie I am eating right now. You've proven to me you're on top of things, and helped me understand the scale of what you're facing. All I can say is keep being open with us. As to the toxic memers and posters, while you can't ignore them, don't put too much stock into them. Angry votes are easier to get then cool-headed ones.

Thanks for the reply, it's good to chat about these things. Happy to share the pie with you and have a slice myself.

Normally I would be much better at taking all your thoughts about communication improvements on board and seeing what I can be doing to address the conclusions you're drawing about us. (For example, what can I do to help players like yourself better understand from the get go what my role is etc.) If I had more time (and I will in future), I would be all over that.

I shared the post mortem in the week following the launch. You can read it here.

almost 3 years ago - /u/thearcan - Direct link

Originally posted by DocDevice

Perfect! Thank you very much! And just to make sure I don't miss anything again, I've got you followed now. Keep on being awesome!

FYI - I've just updated my user flair here to better indicate my position.

That thanks to your feedback - this should help other people avoiding confusion regarding who the CM is in future.