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First of all, part of the title credit belongs to EvilLucario. Secondly, this post contains SPOILERS.

So it’s been a week since Twilight of the Gods came out. I left the quest a little optimistic since it was better than Extinction (then again Slime Quest was probably better than Extinction) and because I think I was really, absolutely clinging to the hope that maybe we’d get a quest that was a step in the right direction.

Kind? Of?

I’ll be honest. I am a crusty, crusty hag when it comes to this game. I made an account in 2007, stopped playing around 2011, logged back in during the Battle of Lumbridge, immediately logged back out after wondering what the f*ck Saradomin and Zamorak were doing on my lawn, and hopped back on in late 2019 to ride out the latest arc of quests. I consider 2008-2011 to be the golden age of Runescape, with great quests, minimal god involvement, and a solid balance of RP and skilling.

I am not happy with the story developments in the latest quest. At all.

It took me a bit to realize this, but honestly… why? Extinction was a sucky quest on nearly all fronts because it rushed through the story, had plot points that were present for little to no reason, was full of pointless exposition from characters I didn’t particularly care for, and ended in the most contrivedly anticlimactic way possibly conceived. (See my full rant about that quest here.)

TotG didn’t have as many granular issues as that. I loved the dialogue. I thought the character was back in the center stage. The locations and puzzles felt meaningful and interesting. And the World Guardian had more to say than just “hee hoo I got tricked again.”

It also rendered the Sixth Age an entire filler arc to an almost malicious degree.

First of all is the systematic de-Sliske-izing that’s taken place pretty much from Extinction onward. Don’t get me wrong — I don’t think Sliske is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but we can’t ignore the history our character has had with him and the setups the writers seemed to be indicating to his presence in Azzanadra’s Quest and City of Senntisten.

But, nope! Stupid, stupid player! Those light and shadow voices that were in the shape of Sliske’s masks with his snarkiness and reason for existing (see: Endgame)? NOOOOOO those aren’t Sliske. How silly of you to think that! Oh, and Gregorovic, that guy who thinks you’re Sliske? He’s just craaazzzy haha. Now he’s a demon. And also gone forever.

Like… why? If you’re going to go through all the trouble of the setup in the first set of quests why do it? I’m well aware of Mod Jack’s contempt for the character, but going so far to root Sliske from the game completely feels more petty than story-driven.

The second, and biggest point, is what is basically the wide scale nerf of the Sixth Age as a whole.

So Guthix died and undid the Edicts… so we could just put them back in place? All the gods — including Azzanadra, who ascended for the sole and single purpose of him getting kicked out of Gielinor without any chance to explore his character, relationship to Zaros, or powers — are getting yeeted in a single questline. One. Unus. Een.

After a game of divine Wordle you find out that these characters are being banished into the netherrealm with a minimal amount of fuss (save for Zamorak) without the chance to explore the implications or anything. Characters that people have been following, chatting to, writing about, and debating over for TEN YEARS — zapped without ceremony.

(Never mind that it renders the entire argument that you can’t fight Seren in Extinction because the devs wanted to keep the gods a threat utterly nil. Why keep them a threat if they’re not around? Why not give us that epic boss battle if you’re going to kick them out anyway? Nope. Egg Plinko.)

So many storylines have been left hanging. What the hell is Zaros doing? How would he respond to Azzanadra’s godhood? What about the Temple Knights’ betrayal? What the hell is the deal with Aeternam? What about Armadyl’s search for a home for the aviansie? So many things that were left hanging are being rapidly swept under the rug in an effort to tidy up as fast as possible.

Then comes the World Guardian.

Well, former World Guardian.

MMORPGs are supposed to be theoretically perpetual, and it makes it harder when you have a central character doing all the Big Stuff. Even so, people get invested in that character over time. I’ve heard the argument of power scaling being thrown around, but that’s already happened in-game — Corp Beast was one of the most powerful bosses in the game when I left. Now people AFK him with a wheel of cheese.

A lot of players I know don’t see their character as an avatar, but their own hero with their own quirks, backstory, and decision-making process. It honestly makes the game more lively for me and has lent an extra element to the quests I’m doing.

I recently ran a poll on Twitter asking players with a similarly character-driven approach to questing what they see their adventurer doing after de-World Guardianing themselves.

About 60% said they’d go on adventuring like normal. Cool. But a solid chunk — 40% — didn’t see it that way.

They saw their character dying or sacrificing themselves. They saw their character retiring or not going on adventures anymore. A few (including anonymous comments I received separate from the poll) said they would simply ignore the latest developments and continue to be the World Guardian as if nothing happened.

40% of the people I polled see their character — one that they’ve probably invested in since they’ve started playing — stepping off the ride. What does that say for the story? How invested do you think those 40% are going to be in the quests moving forward? While I know there are those in that group who will remain invested in the NPCs and other story arcs, there are many others who have lost that connection between themselves, their character, and the game.

The Sixth Age happened whether the mods like it or not. While I still have mixed feelings about the decision to kill off Guthix and introduce the gods as active players into the story, that dynamic was (and is!) a huge part of RS3, its lore, and its questing community.

I’ve been a part of that community and I’ve seen how people have woven their own personal character’s stories into the development of it — how they’ve gone from being an adventurer running around shearing sheep and fetching eggs to becoming guardian of Gielinor. I’ve seen such cool takes on World Guardian powers, character designs, the interpersonal stories people weave between their characters and the NPCs, and so much more. It’s what got me back into writing creatively and creating my own characters, and it has brought me so much joy and energy both in the game and out.

Now I see those stories ending. Not out of spite or lack of creativity on the players’ part, but because the natural arc of the story has taken such an unnatural and illogical turn. (And also, after two bungled quest arc finales, sheer and utter heartbreak.)

I understand the writers wanted to (sensibly) de-escalate after a cosmic-level threat. Throwing a ten-year-long story into the garbage — with contempt — is an utter insult to those who have invested themselves in and become attached to Runescape’s lore. There’s already a Sixth Age-free version of Runescape: It’s called OSRS. You can even play it in HD now.

I don’t know if it’s because the writers couldn’t think of anything better, or because whoever is calling the big shots on the story movements has a personal vendetta against the Sixth Age that they have finally enacted on, but whatever the reason is — it’s not a good one. You’ve pulled the plug on this in the worst way possible, and while I’ll keep an eye out for the quests ahead, I’m not sure if I’ll be as interested in them as I was before.

Do better, Jack.

Tl;dr: Wanted better quest than Extinction, got Sixth Age rendered null and void.

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over 2 years ago - /u/JagexJack - Direct link

There's a lot of emotional attribution going on here about vendettas and what I do and don't personally like. Let's be absolutely clear about something here: my responsibility is not to write about what personally interests me. It's to write (or more accurately, to strategically plan) what best supports the game.

Look at the various instances of what I'm personally responsible for. The stuff I choose to write when I occasionally get free reign. Mahjarrat Memories. (Most of) Azzanadra's Quest. The Third Age military stuff. It's super deep lore for people who are super invested in the game's ancient world and characters. Leave me with a word document and nothing else important to do and I will write endlessly about dead Mahjarrat, all the gods of the First Age, exactly how magic works, what the relationship is between the ancient elements and anima, how gods work, etc. That's my jam. It's also super niche. The part of the player base that I regularly engage with are as invested in this stuff as I am, but it's far from the majority. I slip it occasionally into lore books and the like because I enjoy it, and because there's a small audience for it, but I never prioritise it.

The analogy I've been using is that the Sixth Age is like the switchscape of lore - it keeps raising the stakes on your level of investment - the "skill ceiling" for understanding the story, if you will. Your only choices are to understand everything or to just lose interest. That isn't sustainable in the long run. "Sliske in my head" is the ultimate expression of that. To even start to understand that story, you have to understand the events of Endgame, and to understand Endgame you have to understand the entire questline from The World Wakes, which in turn already asks a massive investment from you. There is no onboarding point to this story other than at the beginning, which for a 10 year long story is just crazy.

On the subject of Sliske, I have nothing against the character. He was the unambiguous main character of the game for quite a while, and it's fine to focus on a villain for a decent chunk of time. What I don't think is that it was a good idea - or especially desired by most people - that he go on being the main character (or at the least a very important character) for the foreseeable future. I don't have to dislike a character to think that they've had their time in the sun and it's time for others to have some room.

Obviously for people who liked Sliske and would have preferred that he go on having a very high degree of significance to the story, that's not ideal. I sympathise, just like I sympathise with the people who feel (rightly) that Armadyl never really got his turn. I would prefer to have infinite time in which to do everything. I don't. So given that I'm forced to choose, I'm going to choose what I believe is best for the game rather than what I'm personally most interested to write about.

over 2 years ago - /u/JagexJack - Direct link

Originally posted by autumneliteRS

I guess this means the Queen of Ashes will be joining Rite of Passage on the things-we-are-never-going-to-actually-get-to shelf?

I think there's a bit of a misunderstanding here about how the shelf works. QoA was never announced. There has never been an update that reached even the cursory planning stages that included QoA in any capacity. She was a mention in a lore book (of approximately the significance of Skorpios) which never went anywhere, until she also got "harbinged" in a live ops event with lore of dubious quality, again with no specific update planned or promised.

If you're expanding the concept of the shelf to mean literally anything ever mentioned in lore, then the shelf loses all meaning.

over 2 years ago - /u/JagexJack - Direct link

Originally posted by BillehBear

Not sure you can even answer this question but the only thing I'm kinda bummed about is the plotpoints of Zaros in Erebus and Azzanadra ascending

With the Edicts being put up again are we safe to say that those two points are a closed chapter now or is it possible to see them revisited in future with a "technically not on Gielinor" part/quest?

Erebus was never intended to be the next big thing. We don't want to get trapped into a situation where we're constantly escalating to the next threat, even bigger than the last threat. The gods threaten the world. The elder gods threaten the universe. Erebus threatens reality itself, etc. It got a bigger role in Extinction than originally intended simply because Mod Orion wanted to include it, and had a cool idea for it.

WRT both Erebus and Zaros there's no particular reason to trust that the edicts affect either of them. When Zaros is ready to return, he will.

over 2 years ago - /u/JagexJack - Direct link

Originally posted by autumneliteRS

Your answer is incredibly disingenuous and ignores all context.

Skorpios and the Queen of the Ashes are not comparable. The Queen of Ashes was mentioned in Hero’s Welcome as an active threat likely to head to Gielinor in the future alongside Tuska and Xau-Tak, gods which have received content since then. It is clear that this was not just a background detail but set up for the future direction of the story like with say the Broken Needle. This was then followed up with the Fallen Nihil event.

This isn’t me adding anything and anything to the shelf, this is highlighting a plot thread that seems to be abandoned and your comments showing exactly what is wrong with Jagex and why this post was made in the first place. Jagex changes major details and decisions on a whim resulting in an unsatisfying unengaging narrative that players cannot enjoy.

You can't abandon something which was never in progress to start with.

over 2 years ago - /u/JagexJack - Direct link

Originally posted by K0TA_TV

The part about being no “onboarding” part to the story, I thought the whole point of The World Wakes being doable at any level was the fact it was the start of the new age and the story, that serves as a fine starting point in my opinion?

Also it’s still no reason to abandon (arguably) RuneScapes main story, just cause people can’t jump in at the latest quest and understand everything? That’s like saying people can’t jump into the last Harry Potter books and understand what’s going on so we should scrap it. If you want to make a new arc people can jump Into then just do it, you don’t have to write off the main story just to start another, we’re losing the most interesting shit RS ever had, I was super excited for Xau Tak

Well the strict quest requirements, and the level of lore familiarity necessary to get onboard are two different things. The World Wakes was the intro quest to a brand new, extremely high fantasy, super high powered RPG game. An analogy I think works is that you sit down to play D&D, and the GM says "okay guys, we're starting with level 40 epic character - you're the foretold saviours of the world and you're going to be battling the gods themselves during the time of troubles".

For people like chaos elemental and the others who felt really engaged with the story promised by the sixth age, that's a super exciting premise. Some people like that overwhelming sense of being dropped in the deep end and just rolling with it.

To be clear we're not abandoning the story. Abandoning it would have meant, in 2019, having a miniquest where Sliske is explicitly confirmed to be dead, Jas makes it clear that she'll give humanity 1000 years to prove themselves to her, and the gods all get sucked into a black hole. What we did is try to pay off those plot points as quickly as we could with the resources available. You might not like the strategy, or the execution, and certainly there are parts which haven't worked out as well as I'd like, but we specifically chose not to abandon it.

over 2 years ago - /u/JagexJack - Direct link

Originally posted by autumneliteRS

It is in game as an established thread in multiple pieces of content. Are you really going to pretend that the original plan wasn’t for this to be built upon and you have now changed things because you just don’t want to put the effort in?

This is exactly my problem with Jagex. It is not that you aren’t perfect and that you make mistakes. That is understandable. It is the pathological refusal to acknowledge those mistakes and therefore take actions to stop those mistakes being repeated. So the player base suffers time and again from you repeating the exact same mistakes.

You used an analogy of switchscape earlier, let me explain with an analogy. You are a politician. You do not accept responsibility for mistakes or accountability, you refuse to engage in self-reflection and then you gaslight people when they bring up your past comments because that doesn’t suit the narrative you are tying to sell at the current time.

The lack of consistent and competent follow-through is what is preventing people from being engaged in the story.

  • The Sixth Age was meant to establish multiple factions and have numerous World Events but you simply gave up on doing that. Armadyl and the Godless have had basically nothing after 10 years.
  • The whole defence for doing Lord of Vampyrium and River of Blood close together was to “build story momentum” but you completely abandoned that for the Desert.
  • Half the quest series in the game (Gnomes, Elemental Workshop etc) have been left with massive gaps longer than the rest of the series combined.
  • Erebus is now going on the shelf as well so I guess we will have to wait another 10 years before we see any update with that.
  • Extinction was a failure quickly touched through underdeveloped plot beats to brush anything under the table to we can return to a status quo as quickly as possible.

It is simply lazy. You do not put the effort in to complete things and then try to spin the situation when you are rightfully called out of it.

I realise that now Mod Osborne has left I've become the default punching bag for whatever is going on in your life, but if you actually want to improve RS in any way rather than just lashing out at people on the internet, this isn't the way to go about it.

You not understanding how game development works doesn't say anything about the truth of what I'm telling you. You not liking the explanations I give you for how and why things happen doesn't make them any less true. You insulting me doesn't change either of those things either.

It is the pathological refusal to acknowledge those mistakes and therefore take actions to stop those mistakes being repeated. So the player base suffers time and again from you repeating the exact same mistakes.

Learning from our mistakes is exactly what I'm doing. Let me be clear: many of the choices made in the Sixth Age, were, in retrospect, a mistake. Not because I don't like the lore (that's the mistake chaos elemental is making in her psychological analysis) but because they don't work for the game at a technical or production level.

over 2 years ago - /u/JagexJack - Direct link

Originally posted by mrYGOboy

Since we'll (probably) be losing our official World Guardian title, does this mean that we'll be getting more quests again in the lines of Chef's Assistant and Gertrude's Cat?

I mean, it's cool to do normal stuff, but I feel like there isn't any real recognition to us being the World Guardian in-game at this moment, since most NPCs (aside from the Gods) treat us like commoners anyway. It would be cool if we had some world-progression displayed through dialogs (or statues (since the player removes a statue during a quest, can't remember which one)) as they complete more quests. It doesn't have to be much, but stuff like Juna and the other champions in the Champions Guild talking about WG's achievements just make the game more immersive imo

I feel like I've created a misleading impression here in talking about the game's scope. The idea isn't to return to doing menial tasks for people, but that a good level of threat would be a villain that threatens say a city or a kingdom rather than the entire world or the entire universe.

over 2 years ago - /u/JagexJack - Direct link

Originally posted by dark1859

on topic question but one you might know the answer to, will we see anything with Arposandra in the near (say 5 years) future?

My aspiration (not a promise) is to move through the world paying attention to each area in turn. If that works out, I'd definitely expect to revisit the gnomes when we get to Kandarin. I can't speak to when that would be in terms of timescale.

over 2 years ago - /u/JagexJack - Direct link

Originally posted by WheresMyForkAndKnife

Completely agree on all points Sliske.

I disagree with with your points on "understanding the story". This is Jagex's fault: you've made quests doable without doing the quests that narratively come before it. I get why you've done it - I don't agree with it, but I don't run a business so w/e - but it's worth noting this problem is entirely self designed. Nuking the story to get out of this hole could be interpreted in a bad way (as is the case here).

I kind of agree with OPs points about the direction the story is taking, but the difference is I'm willing to give it a chance.

Personally I wouldn't wait long to get on with the next bit of the story so players aren't left with a bitter taste (which I think you might be doing? Unsure).

Yeah I mean I agree. It's a muddle - the problem of course is that adding requirements doesn't make the quest any more accessible.

You'll be finding out more about the story before the boss launches, I believe. I'd also like to start talking about 2023 a bit sooner too - recent stuff has all been very plot twisty, which has made it difficult to talk about the future (imagine announcing the zamorak boss before eye of het even). Hopefully things won't be so twisty in future, which will free us up at least to talk in broad terms about where things are going.

over 2 years ago - /u/JagexJack - Direct link

Originally posted by junior4l1

I dont know your name that much or many things of Jagex, I just enjoy the game you have all provided and I want to thank you for having shaped me in my early years growing and even to this day with how much I enjoy the game.

I just want to give my 2 cents that what I believe many of us want to say is we would prefer an ambiguous end, one that gives a pause to this quest series and let's us know it will continue years later, but one that gives us a VERY high quality quest. The world wakes was the first grandmaster quest, and the finale to this quest series should be one that opens the door to other plot points, rather one that squeezes plot points together. Nothing that has to be set in stone, but definitely something that can be approached years later to be explored more immersively.

I may speak for myself but what I believe we don't want is for this to be rushed. We had expectations on the roles of gods in our game, now we're banishing them, so what was the point of everything? A plot twist at the end of this new quest might alleviate our woes. Just so long as it's not rushed however, and as long as you guys really put your best efforts into it, I'm sure it'll come out fine. We're just afraid of being disappointed in a game we love so much, there's high expectations and you guys have definitely delivered on them before.

Honestly I think that's a failure of communication on our (by which I basically mean my) part. We don't see it as a change which limits the story, but rather one which opens it up. The problem with plot points like the elder gods, gods, elder artefacts, etc is that they demand resolution - everything in the setting either conspicuously revolves around them, or makes you wonder why Armadyl hasn't just teleported in and dealt with the problem in ten seconds.

To us this really frees us to tell a broader variety of stories - a warlord can threaten a kingdom now, without that just being a blip on Saradomin's morning diary. I don't think we've done enough yet to really sell that - on the other hand though, to be fair, it's been less than a week since the quest came out. A lot of people haven't even played it yet.

over 2 years ago - /u/JagexJack - Direct link

Originally posted by caddph

So going back to something like how the HAM or dwarf storylines works (e.g., several quests dealing with a seemingly small problem located near a single kingdom but grows to a larger organization, but still a manageable threat and conclusion has new content/areas to explore)?

I'm in the same boat of the newest quests require wayyyy to much background in order to know what's happening, despite not requiring it. I like escalating questlines, but aside from inside jokes/minor references to other quests, think they should be more separated. And it's hard to have a quest with a focus on "this guy is a big threat" meanwhile you have elder gods threatening existence.

Maybe after several of these smaller threat questlines, we get a GM quest that ties in those threats or people we meet in those quests to conclude that chapter and start semi-fresh again. We probably don't need a RotM/Endgame again with quest reqs, but maybe closer to Birthright of the Dwarves or even Extinction in terms or quest prereqs.

Yes exactly. Right now the stakes are so high and the plot points are so dense that every quest we make is like Infinity War. We've been making back to back Infinity Wars for ten years.

over 2 years ago - /u/JagexJack - Direct link

Originally posted by junior4l1

Yes, this sounds close to what I was saying. We have a high expectation and that places restrictions on what you can do due to the time frame. Ambiguous endings are fine with us as long as they're touched on later (such as seeing Zamorak stop the edicts placement and then the gods remain and that explains why Zammy is a repetitive boss) and then we get another quest furthering the story later. This I think would be better than rushing it just to be done with this particular line.

I am hopeful of what you and your team are capable of, I truly am, just also fearful because I desperately love this game and don't want it to ever be ruined. I wish communication could be improved on but as I know in my own career field this may be difficult to do as promising things always leads to misinformation or misguided judgment if it is not met (such as people blaming you for an off-hand comment and thinking it was an official release statement of the content).

I'm not sure if we can ever suggest anything, back when you guys did the month ahead news letters, detailing what every week would bring on the main website, we regarded that as the best communication possible and really do miss that insight into the daily/weekly/monthly activity of Jagex. It allowed us to understand you all far better than now, where we see you as an enigma that may or may not have been more focused on money than improving the game (not saying this is true, just that this is the general way we feel as a community).

I don't mean to sound offensive, as I said before I appreciate all the hard work you and your team give, I personally know and feel like you guys work hard and are just always piled on because we are almost always insatiable.

Thanks, no worries. You should be seeing more communication about this soon.