Ahskance

Negate isn't a bad word. It describes erasing the threat, which is not realistic in many situations.

Ultaimtely AA is treated like the other ship statistics. Some ships have good armor, others good speed, others good guns, and other good AA. Some ships have AA on them, but as it's not the focal point of the design it's more "functional" than "exceptional". This can be frustrating because when you have a game where there is no CV, the lack of AA strength has no bearing on ship performance... but it absolutely matters when a CV is present.

The Musashi is an extreme example of a Very powerful Tier 9 when no CV is present, and a babysitter-required liability when a CV is present.

I'll link you a video I did regarding countering Russian CV.

Two things: I talk slow, so x2 speed is your friend, and it's aimed for general audience so I realize it won't be high end gripping entertainment.

In the latter half/third of the video, there's a description of attack lines, ship spacing, and fighters. Please check it out and then get back to me.

Raw Link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGZpEBEl6gI

@NefariousRaven

A few points you should understand when talking with El2aZeR.

1) He does not see plane loss as mattering, because he does not believe plane loss can be expected to reach critical levels. This is not something you will convince him of, because he will simply say that the CV player should play correctly. Or that even "bad" CV players can't lose enough planes to reach this condition.

2) He does not believe flak is a threat. He has played enough that while he does occasionally encounter flak damage, it's rare enough that it's shown as a non-factor to him. See again about playing correctly and how even "bad" CV players don't lose enough planes to reach a critical condition.

3) He does not believe there is a way to stop a CV strike. While he knows there are mathmatical situations that prevent strikes, the ability for the CV to strike something else negates the issue and keeps the CV relevant regardless.
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This is quite possible. Worth noting that strong players tend to think if terms of "If X, then Y threatens" when evaluating choices/tactics and before making moves. As a CV has the potential to threaten nearly anything, that calculation easily comes up OP as it's always in the Threat column.

The part that fails to bear out is that the CV is a single Threat, meaning that while it is a Threat in one place, it is not anywhere else. Active Threat vs Potential Threat is important in weighing the calculations on pushes, moves, takes, etc.

Unfortunately, the common rhetoric ascribes CVs the ability to fly at incredible, near teleportational speeds and be an Active Threat in all places at once, which causes decision paralysis in higher-order players. This is hard to put into context to a strategist that isn't familiar with planning on exploiting timings and attack lines that limit a CV.

Looking to control/deny the aerial space i...

You can listen to the podcast yourself. This was hosted by TNG after the conclusion of Season 9.

https://anchor.fm/the-new-guys/episodes/Episode-027-The-CV-Mains-You-Love-to-Hate-Hurricane-CV-Roundtable-ef9v6u

As I came from KSC before moving to WG, I wouldn't need to look far to find excellent players that are ok with CVs. This isn't to say it's an opinion shared by most, though.

This is not surprising given the hundreds or thousands of posts the Great CV Debate has inspired.

There was one team that excelled with it. I remember speaking with Stratmania in a post Season 9 podcast that TNG held with reps from severeal Hurricane clans.

Season 11 was quite different with all the ships that had been added.

Prior to the Commander Rework, yeah? Odd that your enemy CVs had so much trouble so consistently. You can just angle to force only one strike angle and then block that.

Weird to hear folks were doing that in Hurricane...? Never got to hear about/experience that one.

You're describing Season 11, as Goliath wasn't in the game during Season 9. Season 11 was a different experience with the introduction of the MvR, though it stablized fairly quickly until the FDR came along and shook things up a small amount.

When did you have to deathball to save your CV? I've never experienced a situation like that, though MvR didn't try to AP Rocket snipe another MvR. That was one of the perks of not bringing the Hakuryu when the MvR was still fresh and pre-nerf.

I haven't sat down to watch pre-Rework KotS. I caught like 2 games of the KotS that had Reworked CVs, but I was a very new player then. I agreed with the removal of Reworked CVs from KotS because they were in heavy iteration at the time and that's not a sound place for competitive to deal with.

As for CVs in Clan Battles, I've played every Reworked CV season since they've been in at a Hurricane level (though I played less recently as twitch and work got in the way). I can tell you with absolute certainty that there was no death-balling in Hurricane. People still moved out, took positions that threatened crossfires, fought over Cap Points, and claimed space.

Fun fact, one of the best teams in that season ran Battleship instead of CV. That was an Asian clan that Stratmania (well respected CV player) was affiliated with if I recall correctly.

I know people like to say this all the time, but it doesn't bear out.

Ships move up and flank and take positions in CV games. The "hide and spin in circles in a big ball at the back of the map" is just a clickbait meme.

Imagine O7 or some other high-end clan just hiding in terror of some planes instead of doing what they actually do... which is taking map positions, caps, and kills even though a CV exists.

CVs have been in the game for years, and in the Reworked state for nearly 3 years. People still play the map regardless of mode.

Surface Ship Fighters are definitely weak to useless against Russian CVs. That is certainly true.

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As for baking in the Priority Sector, that could be done, but there is a constant drumbeat from players wanting More Things To Do. This is often the higher-end of the playerbase that feels like they don't have enough things active to challenge them. Average players are not in need of a wealth of things to keep them occupied, however, so Priority Sector is a compromise between the two. It's a reward for recognizing and responding to a situation, but it's not crippling if it's missed. It's often the difference of a plane kill or not. A single plane shot down isn't likely the end of a CV's match, but if everyone used it the losses would certainly add up. They do in competitive play with high-end teams.

As to the Fighter being able to stop a strike, can you imagine a "Batten the Hatches" consumable that would make a Surface Ship tem...

I don't think you're catching his point.

CVs force players to evaluate positions differently:

"Can I roll solo on this flank like last game? Nah, there's a CV on this side of the map"
"Is this island good for holding the choke alone? Hrm, Hak's can bomb here, I'll move over 1 island where the Halland blocks the attack line"
"Oh god, we only have one DD and they're on the other flank... Oh wait, CV can you spot this DD over there?"

The conditions change so the battle plays out different in various ways.

Whether you like or dislike those differences is a matter of personal opinion, but the point is that playing the same maps with the same ships typically leads to the same spots taken and similar experiences. Shaking those experiences up with "varied rulesets" causes more replayability. Random Battle being random helps a lot, but having matches with CVs, without CVs... with DDs, without DDs... with BBs,...

Just worth knowing, Priority Sector isn't something a CV player hides from. It's just part of the damage interaction. The damage from the Instantaneous and the ramping damage is factored into normal play, so a CV driver that runs away from it would actually be playing incorrectly.

Priority Sector is a nod to "Manual AA" in the sense that you look at and "shoot" the planes. It's only a single look and button click, but it's still often more than a stressed player is able to do. The amount of folks actually using Priority Sector is quite low, so hopefully there's a way to get the word out.

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As for Fighters, Fighters on a Surface Ship deny follow-up strikes or help to deny attack lines. Typically CVs don't pick strike lines that run directly over another ship on the way to a target, because that's wasteful in terms of taking lots of mid/close range AA. Fighters bolster that "don't attack through here" zone more and can drive a CV...

My response to the "CV Apologist" tripe is to state: "I've never apologized"

There was a section in the 2019 CV Summit which measured player behavior after 0 CV, 2 CV, and 4 CV games. That showed information toward general acceptance for 0 and 2 CV being the same, and that was pre-8.5 of all things.

Probably referring to the 15 Rocket Throw of the Kearsarge instead of the 9 Rocket Throw of the Midway. More saturation effect.

This is true, lower Tiers have little AA because lower tiers are training grounds. Both for CV drivers to learn how to CV, and for surface ships to learn what CVs can do.

Tier 4 CVs are gated by bad damage and plane speed to make them more into training experiences. Tier 6 CVs have more damage and speed, but are still undertuned as the AA the exists isn't powerful yet. It's stronger, but not anything like what Tier 8 and up AA is.

So yes, this is different at lower tiers, though CVs are less of a threat there.

I wasn't referring to "resources" like HP or Ammo. Resources in this case is better thought of as "Players" or "Player Positions".

By having players position closer, you gain Defense, but lose Offense. There is no perfect choice, because you are given a situation that is complex and requires dynamic choices since you don't have enough resources (Players) to cover all the problems at one time.

Were you within 2km of the actual planes?

Whenever your AA is used, your Aerial Detection blooms to full value, but I would assume the "Spotting" mechanic is determined by "seeing" your Conning Tower. If it wasn't within 2km of you, then you may have been detected by other planes?

On it. We'll get that information added soon.

It's been elevated. We were made aware yesterday, but any fix/implementation will take time.

We'll keep you updated!

Not instantly, but Fighters have specifically low health pools to aid in them being taken out by Surface Ship AA.

Bearn has tougher Fighters with larger health pools, but specifically reduced spotting capabilities (2km) in a form of compensation.