[2019] Let's Talk about Combos

Originally posted by Calistron

<Edit: I just want to say thank you to everyone who jumped in to talk about this topic, as well as a special thanks to BioCamden and the generous soul who gave gold for this thread. I can't wait to investigate more in the full game!>

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This post intends to investigate the following:

- Internal Cooldown on Combos

- Some basic builds from the demo weekends

- In an optimal group what class should be the highest priority for detonators?

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Combo Internal Cooldown

I spent a fair chunk of the weekend playing a Flamethrower/Lightning Coil Colossus and (while cackling maniacally) I began to notice a pattern. High health targets appear to have some kind of internal cooldown on how often then can take combo damage.

Before we delve too deeply into this, let’s cover a few basics about Combos. Combo’s occur when a detonator ability is applied to a mob to which a primer ability has been used AND the primer ability was able to take effect. Each element has a different effect when the primer is applied and sticks, namely:

- Fire: Damage over Time (DoT), strong vs Armor and Physical Shields

- Ice: Slow and/or Freeze effect, strong vs Energy Shields

- Electric: AoE Damage, strong vs Energy Shields

- Acid: Single Target Damage w/ resistance debuff, strong vs Armor and Physical Shields

Note: Impact and Blast Damage types exist but do not have lasting effects and cannot Prime a target. Blast type abilities MAY detonate, depending on the ability.

(Credit to FireDragon04 and Dusel who have an amazing ability chart that can be found here: https://www.zockify.de/anthem/ability-chart/)

Before we talk about detonators, it is important to note that Primer abilities may be used against targets with energy shields. If the Primer ability has a damage component that damage will affect the target (barring other resistances, etc), however, the elemental effect will not be applied WHILE THE ENERGY SHIELD IS UP. Targets with physical shields may be primed, even if their shield blocks the attack. It is also important to note that all primer abilities appear to cause a resistance check on the target, even if they do not have an energy shield or their shield is down. Primed targets will have an elemental effect on their model and, if you are a significant distance from the target, have a grey hexagon over their head with an elemental icon denoting what they’re primed with.

Detonators are the abilities that javelins may take that will cause a combo to occur. The EFFECT of the combo is based on the Javelin which uses the detonator ability.

- Ranger: High Single Target Damage

- Colossus: Moderate AOE Damage

- Interceptor: Elemental Aura that applies elemental effects to nearby targets over time

- Storm: Moderate Damage and spreads elemental effect to nearby targets

It is unclear if the combo deals a specific kind of damage, but I suspect (no confirmation) that the damage done is either a) Raw Damage or b) Damage of the same type as the detonator. If anyone has confirmation of this, please let me know. (The case for b) stems from seeing higher blue damage numbers from Glacial Spear when hitting a primed target rather than unprimed). It is important to note that detonator abilities do not CLEAR the elemental status. For example, a target on fire will remain on fire if they still have health left after the Combo is applied.

So what does this have to do with Combo internal cooldowns?

It is already apparent to anyone who played the Stronghold included in the demo on Hard mode, or watched some of the End Game videos released by the Game Changers over the weekend, that higher difficulties will require significant team play, of which Combos will be a significant portion. That said, knowing when you CAN combo and when it’s on cooldown will be an important distinction.

How do I know there’s a cooldown?

I mentioned earlier that I played a Flame Thrower/Lightning Coil Colossus build. This build takes advantage of the fact that the Lightning Coil auto-targets and deals damage once it’s activated. The Colossus activates Lightning Coil (which is a detonator ability) and uses its arm-mounted flamethrower to prime targets. If the Lightning Coil decides to hit one of the targets en fuego, a combo is applied and damage is done to all targets within range.

When fighting high health mobs, in particular the Scar Enforcers with Physical shields, I would apply the fire effect with the flame thrower and once the lightning coil hit the target a Combo would result. The target would REMAIN on fire, and even if the fire effect was reapplied with the flamethrower, repeated lightning coil hits would NOT result in another combo, until a set period elapsed. This combo internal cooldown appears to be between 5 and 10 seconds.

Why is the cooldown important?

I was unable to test in a sufficiently controlled environment to determine if a subsequent elemental effect, from another player, would allow another Combo. However, observational evidence from Strongholds appears to suggest that the internal cooldown applies to all detonators applied to the target. THIS IS UNCONFIRMED.

That said, if a target requires a cooldown before another combo can be granted, there will necessarily be a determination of optimal class for combo detonation and a “Rhythm” to high end combat that will be necessary to maintain. This will be explored in the third section of this post.

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Builds

I played around with some different builds for various javelins this weekend, as I had all four from the VIP Demo weekend. Some were successful, many were not. Note that the builds listed have an emphasis on solo gameplay and/or selfish group play (not relying on teammates for primers or detonators).

Colossus: The clear winner here is the Lightning Coil/Flamethrower build previously mentioned. It’s particularly effective against large groups of “Red” enemies, cleaving through with multiple combos chaining when lightning coil hits another primed target. It is reasonably effective against high health targets as well, as the Colossus has the health to stand and “FLAME ON” for quite some time. Note that this is an EXTREMELY close range build and requires liberal use of the Colossus’s physical shield for survival on higher difficulties.

Storm: Storm has the widest range of options when it comes to Primers and Detonators, and has a huge array of flexible builds. I tried:

- Frost Shards/Lightning Strike: Easy to use, but long-ish cooldown on lightning strike

- Ice Storm / Burning Orb: Ice storm can be used continually if the ability isn’t “completed” this allows near-infinite target priming if used correctly. Burning Orb (when used fully charged) does good damage with some AOE splash, has 5 charges, and, due to the charge time allowing ability regen, has a high “up-time” of use.

- Ice Storm / Glacial Spear: See Ice Storm above. Glacial spear appeared to have a higher single target damage than Burning Orb, but had a longer cooldown. I tried this build because I had an ice inscription and wanted to run a double ice ability build. I used my weapons for damage much more than the previous two builds.

Ranger: Ranger has some advantages and a host of disadvantages. It honestly feels a little under-tuned currently and is the javelin most reliant on its weapons loadout. Ranger is the only javelin that has a primer melee ability, but the long-ish animation time, difficulty of use, and vulnerability at close range make it a difficult advantage to leverage in higher difficulties. That said, I was reasonably successful with a few builds.

- Inferno Grenade/Seeking Missile: This is a pretty easy build to use, due to the large fire aoe from inferno grenade and the homing ability of seeking missile. The damage of the inferno grenade was a nice bonus most of the time compared to the CC of Frost Grenade.

- Frost Grenade/Pulse Blast: This build required more skill to use and hinged on the ability of Pulse blast to “crit” when hitting vulnerable areas. Frost grenade was preferable here as it froze enemies and made precision Pulse Blast shots easier to make.

- Venom Darts/Frag Grenade: This build had several advantages, combined with muster point, Venom darts increases your gun damage (as well as any other kind of damage) when the acid effect was applied. Venom darts was a Low to moderate damage ability and has two charges. If you hit two different targets with Venom Darts and they were close together, Frag Grenade WOULD detonate both, doing high Single Target damage to each one with a “double” combo. This build feels like it will be an essential part of boss killing, when Elemental effects can be applied to bosses (which didn’t appear to work in the demo). Of the Ranger builds I played, this one felt the best, but took a higher level of skill to use.

Interceptor: God’s honest truth time: the interceptor and I did not get along. I’m also of the opinion that its Combo ability is the most dubious of the four javelins. In theory, Interceptors can be a team’s best friend, applying elemental effects to large masses of targets. In practice, I found that good interceptor players killed anything that they were close enough to prime with their aura. Build-wise, I didn’t play enough to get the gear to try out many, but Arekkz Gaming has a video on an interesting build: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zY7Ce4GPt8E&feature=youtu.be This also looks like a higher skill required kind of build.

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Optimal Combos

This is where things get interesting. Who should be detonating your combos in your group, especially if the aforementioned Internal Combo Timer is a thing? For the most part, red trash mobs seem like they’ll be a “catch as catch can” kind of proposition, with anyone detonating anything. Colossusi will obviously be desirable for their ability to clear huge swathes of targets without an ultimate.

When we get to Yellow bar trash (like scar enforcers) this is where the question gets tricky. I would recommend that Inteceptors and Storms do NOT detonate these kinds of mobs, as their potential damage is lower. Colossusi and Rangers will be desirable for their ability to take larger chunks out of their hp bar. Note that Colossusi who are using the Flamethrower/Lightning Coil build will want to emphasize priming all targets, especially after the first combo on the yellow hp bar target, so that the aoe explosion from other targets being detonated will hit the yellow hp target that is on combo internal cooldown.

For targets with energy shields, emphasis should be on taking shields down with Ice/Electric damage abilities and keeping them down with weapon fire. Primers and detonators can then be applied, with the red and yellow hp bar targets being treated similarly to non-shielded targets for detonator priority.

For boss targets, I expect that while priming will be possible at release, that it won’t be assured. Multiple primers will probably be necessary to get an elemental effect to stick on boss targets. Once elemental effects are applied, Rangers should get priority for detonation, with their high single target damage combos.

I expect that this will spill over into build choices perhaps going so far as seeing a well-tuned team choosing double primer abilities on storms/interceptors and double detonator abilities on Rangers/colossi. Moreover, as Masterwork and Legendary gear starts appearing, additional effects on that gear will skew builds and priorities. I can honestly say that this aspect is one of the ones that gives me the highest hopes for Anthem as a game.

Your thoughts and comments are welcome, so please discuss below.

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About the Author: Comisar/Kelorn/Calistron has played numerous games over the years starting in the mid-90’s and progressing into MMO’s like Everquest, EVE, and WoW as well as shooters like CS and TF. He was an avid Destiny and reluctant Destiny 2 player, as well as an official Community Contributor for Wargaming’s World of Warships series, where he hosts a weekly podcast called “The Warships Podcast”.

Originally posted by Mind-Game

There is a lot of conflicting information and questions in this thread about how much damage combos do as well that would be great to get some clarification on.

The two big questions I have are:

• Does detonating a combo with a skill do more damage based on how much damage the detonator did? And is the combo damage the same damage type as the detonator?

• Do storm and interceptor combos do any damage at all to the target besides the detonator damage? Or do just colossus and ranger get a damage bonus? Do you have any numbers of the relative strength of the rangers single target damage combo compared to the colossus' AOE (and the storm and interceptor if they do any damage at all).

Originally posted by AbaddonX

Hmm, but when playing Storm I'm 100% positive that I could detonate multiple times, because I would often detonate with an ability and then detonate again immediately with my melee. I can't remember if this also worked with Colossus, so maybe the Storm's detonation ends the current effect and re-applies it, making it technically a "new" effect?

Originally posted by MisjahDK

Interesting, thanks for clarifying!

I actually thought the primer status number stacked on enemies and a combo would take away from that number and require an fixed amount.
I also thought that maybe harder enemies had a resistance against primers making it harder to stack enough to combo.

Originally posted by sharp461

So does this mean if I flamethrower and combo off it with my colossus, only I am locked out of doing a combo again and my storm friend can lightning strike him? Or does my friend have to apply his frost primer first to be able to combo?

Originally posted by Shinsoku

Just to chime in on your chime ;)

Have you thought about something like Diminishing return on higher difficulty levels, or status effect lasting shorter? Of course not until it won't have any effect at all, since comboing is the major source for high dmg output.

Originally posted by AetherMcLoud

So if I understand this

Have a different un-combo’ed status effect applied.

right it means its by design the Interceptor can't detonate the status effects it spreads by doing combos (and I guess neither can the Storm)? Cause I never got a combo once off the Intercepter aura in the demo, even when applying it to fresh enemies.

Originally posted by Tarplicious

Are there any concerns about how this might discourage use of gear that extends the duration on these effects since letting it fall off to reapply (in the case of a very high health target like those that would be found in higher difficulties) would be preferable with how devasting and necessary combos are?

Like if you increase the duration of the flamethrower’s burn, wouldn’t that lower damage to the target since they’ll be primed for combo less frequently?

Originally posted by Aezoc

I encountered some confusing behavior with interceptor auras in the demo and I'm hoping you can clarify.

• With an aura up, it didn't seem that I could trigger combos, even on status effects that had not been comboed (e.g. fresh effects using different elements and applied by teammates). Is this intentional? If it's not, would the aura from the new combo overwrite my existing aura or stack with it?
• Interceptor ice and acid auras behaved differently from one another. I could apply ice, combo and trigger the aura, apply ice to a second target via the aura, and then combo that second target once my aura wore off but the target was still frozen. Substituting acid for ice, I could not combo off the second target in the same situation. Which is intended?

Originally posted by Viperions

I am kind of saddened to hear this - the ability to constantly chain combos and shut down adds at the cost of being in the thick of it because you're reliant on your melee was my favorite part of storm - it encouraged very aggressive play, versus its sounding like this change will encourage floating up in the rafters.

Originally posted by red7silence

Why wouldn't you make it so if you reapplied the same effect, but after being comboed, that would allow it to be comboed again? Having to wait for an effect to fall off wastes time, especially when you get into grand master difficulties.

Originally posted by shadowkijik

So to double check, even team mates can’t combo off of Inty aura? So as Inty, I go and drop a venom bomb on a scar scout, get the acid aura by combo’ing that myself, then zip over to that legendary enforcer with the aura, and apply the acid to him, that elemental effect can not then be detonated by anyone to include my team mates?

I understand not being able to combo it myself because then I would have a permanent acid aura, however it would be very good, tactically, if my team mates could combo off of it, particularly since inty aura should theoretically have the best chance of applying status/primer to boss level mobs. One could open a fight/damage phase on a boss with int comboing to get the aura to keep acid on the boss for as long as possible and then the ranger could detonate for the damage, otherwise it effectively plays out that on boss fights Inty is lacking.

Though if it’s by design that elemental spread doesn’t allow another combo I understand particularly if it’s a coding issue, as if storm could do this they could infinitely freeze an entire room if enemies by properly spreading and detonating off of the mobs.

Originally posted by shadowkijik

Hmm that’s entirely fair. Is there a way to code it where if status applied by Inty aura then enemy=primed? We definitely don’t want the exploitation, just would be nice, all the same though, with these other changes and Inty ult being the an hero ult, I’m not bothered without it.

Thank you for the response boss, you (and everyone else at BW) absolutely are rocking it and it’s such a huge difference for us all.