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about 4 years ago - /u/DanielZKlein - Direct link

Originally posted by ohjehhngyjkkvkjhjsjj

I just hope Horizon is good. Recent Legends have been kinda mediocre on release, and Rampart was/is bad. I get not wanting to make OP Legends (I mean look at Overwatch for release Brigitte, and Sigma double shields meta f**king up the game for months), but maybe don’t give their abilities multiple weaknesses that f**k them over (Loba bracelet is slow, long animations, loud, bright and flashy, and she can’t sprint during it, and Rampart’s everything takes forever to set up and her passive only works with 3 guns).

This is one of the harder things to explain, but let me try: Overwatch and Apex Legends aren't the same genre. This may seem like it, what with them both being FPS games with characters that have unique abilities, but they're not; and I'm not even talking about BR vs objective based team deathmatch (although that of course figures in too). I'm talking about the fact that Overwatch is primarily an ability based game, and Apex is primarily a gun based game. Sure Overwatch has guns, and you've got to learn how to be good at shooting them; Soldier 76 and Widowmaker have very different guns that require different skills to master, for instance. But importantly, these guns exist exclusively in the context of the rest of the kit. You couldn't just put Soldier's gun on Zarya and call it a day; you couldn't even put it on Tracer, another character who's in the same class as Soldier.

In Apex, you can learn to be good at controlling the Flatline, and now you're good at controlling the Flatline with any character. There are subtle differences, such as Rampart having a shorter reload time on LMGs, or large characters having slightly different sightlines due to elevated eye position compared to small characters (Caustic can shoot over obstacles that Wraith can't shoot over, but Wraith can hide behind cover where Caustic's head would poke out over it), but mostly you have the same skillchecks on guns no matter what character you play; this also means you can learn to play around the lethality of other characters based on what guns they have; you get a feeling for how long it takes someone to burn you down with an R-99 compared to a Spitfire.

Neither one of these models is inherently better or worse; I would argue that the gun based model is slightly better for a one life mode (like I said, the BR thing does figure in) because you can't be surprise-killed by a character's abilities; it's the guns that do the killing, and you should already be used to them. Even when we introduce a new gun, there's a high chance you'll run into it regardless of the enemy characters you run into, so you get ample opportunity to practice dying to the Volt (I know I have). I know ability based BRs *can* work (I happen to think Realm Royale is a really good game; I just never get enough time to really get into it), but they probably mean you can't keep releasing new characters (which they don't) and you have to kind of overcommunicate everything that happens (which is why fantasy/magic is such a good fit for Realm Royale; they get sparkly magic VFX that they can use to REALLY overcommunicate what just happened).

So looping around to your original point, why characters in Apex are generally weak on release (and if you couldn't tell, as someone working on the Legend meta, I've been thinking about this rather a lot recently ;P): my theory is that being a gun game precludes us from using certain power levels for abilities. For instance, do I think Horizon will be strong on release? I sure hope so! We made some last minute adjustments to give her a little extra power and some of us (myself included) are quite worried we overshot it, but we had the same concern with Rampart and Loba and release Revenant, so who knows. But what I know for a fact is that abilities have an upper boundary in Apex in regards to the power they can express. For instance, we couldn't have a Junkrat type detonation pack that does meaningful damage on demand and has the potential to boop you off the map (boop is a term of art in game design, don't worry about it). So we kind of have to try and find that narrow space where an ability is useful enough that you want to bring the character while also making it so guns are still the primary deciders of combat outcomes. When we honestly can't tell from our playtesting how much of an impact it'll make, we do err on the side of caution.

It's an interesting philosophical debate: do we do more damage to the game by releasing underwhelming characters that then have to be buffed up over the next 2-3 patches, or do we do more damage to it by releasing broken strong characters that have to be nerfed into the ground, possibly with a hotfix? Conventional wisdom says the later does more damage to the game: it opens us up to accusations of "you're just making the character strong so we have to buy it on release and then you nerf it" (League of Legends flashbacks intensify) and the excitement of having a new character can turn sour real quick if every time you meet them they kill you in a way that feels bullsh*t (I'm sure that's not going to come back to haunt me). That said, pretty much every character we released post launch was either weak on release or underappreciated by the community at large (I'm thinking Wattson here; she was always strong, but mostly played in competitive only.)

TLDR: we're not trying to ship weak Legends, but it's really hard to make Legends strong in a way we can be confident won't ruin the game for everyone for a week or two. We'll continue buffing Legends that release weak.

about 4 years ago - /u/AmusedApricot - Direct link

Originally posted by DanielZKlein

This is one of the harder things to explain, but let me try: Overwatch and Apex Legends aren't the same genre. This may seem like it, what with them both being FPS games with characters that have unique abilities, but they're not; and I'm not even talking about BR vs objective based team deathmatch (although that of course figures in too). I'm talking about the fact that Overwatch is primarily an ability based game, and Apex is primarily a gun based game. Sure Overwatch has guns, and you've got to learn how to be good at shooting them; Soldier 76 and Widowmaker have very different guns that require different skills to master, for instance. But importantly, these guns exist exclusively in the context of the rest of the kit. You couldn't just put Soldier's gun on Zarya and call it a day; you couldn't even put it on Tracer, another character who's in the same class as Soldier.

In Apex, you can learn to be good at controlling the Flatline, and now you're good at controlling the Flatline with any character. There are subtle differences, such as Rampart having a shorter reload time on LMGs, or large characters having slightly different sightlines due to elevated eye position compared to small characters (Caustic can shoot over obstacles that Wraith can't shoot over, but Wraith can hide behind cover where Caustic's head would poke out over it), but mostly you have the same skillchecks on guns no matter what character you play; this also means you can learn to play around the lethality of other characters based on what guns they have; you get a feeling for how long it takes someone to burn you down with an R-99 compared to a Spitfire.

Neither one of these models is inherently better or worse; I would argue that the gun based model is slightly better for a one life mode (like I said, the BR thing does figure in) because you can't be surprise-killed by a character's abilities; it's the guns that do the killing, and you should already be used to them. Even when we introduce a new gun, there's a high chance you'll run into it regardless of the enemy characters you run into, so you get ample opportunity to practice dying to the Volt (I know I have). I know ability based BRs *can* work (I happen to think Realm Royale is a really good game; I just never get enough time to really get into it), but they probably mean you can't keep releasing new characters (which they don't) and you have to kind of overcommunicate everything that happens (which is why fantasy/magic is such a good fit for Realm Royale; they get sparkly magic VFX that they can use to REALLY overcommunicate what just happened).

So looping around to your original point, why characters in Apex are generally weak on release (and if you couldn't tell, as someone working on the Legend meta, I've been thinking about this rather a lot recently ;P): my theory is that being a gun game precludes us from using certain power levels for abilities. For instance, do I think Horizon will be strong on release? I sure hope so! We made some last minute adjustments to give her a little extra power and some of us (myself included) are quite worried we overshot it, but we had the same concern with Rampart and Loba and release Revenant, so who knows. But what I know for a fact is that abilities have an upper boundary in Apex in regards to the power they can express. For instance, we couldn't have a Junkrat type detonation pack that does meaningful damage on demand and has the potential to boop you off the map (boop is a term of art in game design, don't worry about it). So we kind of have to try and find that narrow space where an ability is useful enough that you want to bring the character while also making it so guns are still the primary deciders of combat outcomes. When we honestly can't tell from our playtesting how much of an impact it'll make, we do err on the side of caution.

It's an interesting philosophical debate: do we do more damage to the game by releasing underwhelming characters that then have to be buffed up over the next 2-3 patches, or do we do more damage to it by releasing broken strong characters that have to be nerfed into the ground, possibly with a hotfix? Conventional wisdom says the later does more damage to the game: it opens us up to accusations of "you're just making the character strong so we have to buy it on release and then you nerf it" (League of Legends flashbacks intensify) and the excitement of having a new character can turn sour real quick if every time you meet them they kill you in a way that feels bullshit (I'm sure that's not going to come back to haunt me). That said, pretty much every character we released post launch was either weak on release or underappreciated by the community at large (I'm thinking Wattson here; she was always strong, but mostly played in competitive only.)

TLDR: we're not trying to ship weak Legends, but it's really hard to make Legends strong in a way we can be confident won't ruin the game for everyone for a week or two. We'll continue buffing Legends that release weak.

*sadly puts away new character pitch* https://imgur.com/a/YvPsE7G)

about 4 years ago - /u/DanielZKlein - Direct link

Originally posted by SmallScientist321

Speaking of Wattson, is there any data on your end that might suggest she needs a small buff; especially for pubs since she's only really viable in the very HIGHEST levels of pro play?

There sure is.

about 4 years ago - /u/DanielZKlein - Direct link

Originally posted by Nosiege

I happen to think Realm Royale is a really good game; I just never get enough time to really get into it

Holy wild shoutout. It is a fun game but the bullets are bowling balls and the servers are usually 75% AI. Shame it's a dead game stuck in perma-beta.

I think part of being a good game dev is playing widely and critically and seeing what problems other people have encountered and how they fixed them.

about 4 years ago - /u/DanielZKlein - Direct link

Originally posted by SmallScientist321

I can't express how hyped I am to have a dev reply to me. I'm freaking out a little. Does this mean we're going to see changes to her soon? (you don't have to say yes, but i'll be a little sad if you say no). ;)

I can't say anything because I don't wanna spoil the patch notes, but let's say I concur with your analysis that she's particularly useful only in high skill and could do with a little more power low skill. One would have to find a way to give her targeted power...

about 4 years ago - /u/DanielZKlein - Direct link

Originally posted by LaMeraPistola

I totally understand what you're going for, but rather than talking about making Legends stronger/weaker, I just wished they made them more fun and versatile.

Unfortunately you often can't have one without the other. Whenever there's a way to make a Legend more fun and versatile WITHOUT making them more/less powerful, that's a homerun and of course we'll do it, but you so very rarely see this. If you like pitch me a "fun only" change and I'll show you how it'll affect power!

about 4 years ago - /u/DanielZKlein - Direct link

Originally posted by AmusedApricot

*sadly puts away new character pitch* https://imgur.com/a/YvPsE7G)

Can't compete with my one word pitch: GUNCHUCKS

about 4 years ago - /u/DanielZKlein - Direct link

Originally posted by Solvas

Pretty dope of you as a dev to give such a detailed answer. Thanks for the clarification. But before you go.... WHEN'S MY NEXT MIRAGE BUFF HUH?! Respectfully asking of course.

Here, I'll give you three Mirage buffs, but up to three of them may be bamboozles (for thematic reasons, you see):

1) When Mirage shoots, his decoys will now shoot blanks

2) Mirage decoys now have 45 hp and will flicker as bullets pass through

3) When you destroy a Mirage decoy, it explodes into a 4s duration small area smoke bomb

Which one's real? Are any of them real? Who knows!

about 4 years ago - /u/DanielZKlein - Direct link

Originally posted by 8bitaddict

Just want to reply here to share that I feel like the gripe with Loba's ability is mostly because people are using it wrong. Positioning pre-engagement versus trying to reposition mid fight. Yeah if you get caught out, chances are you won't get a clean port out. But it is only her and pathfinder, and octane that can instantly take high ground at the start of an engagement. While she cant use hers to escape, Octane/Pathfinder don't share the utility that her ult has. Not to mention being able to use her ultimate every 90 seconds in the later circles to steal all the armors out of all the boxes from other people's kills. I feel like the expectation and use for her is misunderstood and leads to a lot of complaints. While yeah I won't complain personally from her getting a buff, I have had no problem playing her in ranked/pubs at a high level.

Rampart though I've had a lot of trouble trying to make work. Aside from locking doors and making life difficult for the enemy at times, her kit feels very difficult to get the most out of.

Anyways still happy with the approach to look to buff post release. Though a different game, I remember the one time Overwatched buffed Dva to oppressive levels right before Holiday break and wasn't able to revert her for a couple weeks which pretty much played the game unplayable.

Keep up the great work and thank you for providing insight to you and your teams decisions.

Ah, the dreaded Christmas patch; a bold and risky maneuver that has never backfired (flashbacks to us at Riot releasing Yasuo just before a 4 week break) (good times)

about 4 years ago - /u/DanielZKlein - Direct link

Originally posted by YourBestBudie

ok i have a fun only change. octane should be able to ride flyers like in the season 2 trailer, but its like a minecraft pig without a carrot your just along for the ride and have him get droped like the package if its shot at.

Players now learn flier spawn locations and paths, use jumppad to reliably get up on fliers and drop down opportunistically to pull of a third party from the skies. Octane's encounter win rate rises further while his trio win rate falls even further.

about 4 years ago - /u/DanielZKlein - Direct link

Originally posted by 4THOT

There needs to be a dev blog of this stuff, please don't let this just rot in reddit threads.

Look. Here I can just sh*tpost and rely on the fact that in a few weeks, no one will remember what I said. Blogs? That sounds like EFFORT.

(thank you <3)

about 4 years ago - /u/DanielZKlein - Direct link

Originally posted by Nosiege

The possibilities are endless.

Passive: 1% chance to headshot yourself on Heirloom inspect animation.

Fortunately your head is also a gun, so headshotting yourself just reloads a bullet into your magazine. (That's how bullets work right?)

about 4 years ago - /u/DanielZKlein - Direct link

Originally posted by BatmanBeast

I know the first one is fake, because you specifically said that’s the nuclear buff and you don’t want to do it. I don’t think the last one. Maybe the second. But it might all be a Bamboozle. GIVE ME THE PATCH NOTES TO END MY ETERNAL SUFFERING

Stop paying attention to things I say, that's illegal.

about 4 years ago - /u/DanielZKlein - Direct link

Originally posted by threedaysmore

Oh man - release Yasuo - what a time to be alive.

We really did that and went, alright, time to disconnect for ONE MONTH.

about 4 years ago - /u/DanielZKlein - Direct link

Originally posted by Cryptic_Crane72D1

If you don't mind me asking real quick: How does this "versatility v.s. fun" concept apply to a legend like Crypto? His versatility is incredible, but because its all tied to his camera drone, it's taken away when it gets destroyed. Like, would he be overpowered if you guys chose to give him any non-drone abilities to compensate?

It's a good question! The answer is I don't know. We'd have to try. FWIW, I want to bring more easy and fun fallback options to him in the long run (to be clear, he's not getting changed in season 7; he's gotten a lot of love recently). One thing I notice when I play Crypto is that often I do the thing mid combat, when I have a second to breathe, where I throw out my drone and immediately switch back out, just to leave it hovering there, scanning enemies that are chasing me. Maybe there's an easier way to do this and controlling the drone is the secondary/long press use? I'll have to think about this and talk to other designers some more first.

about 4 years ago - /u/DanielZKlein - Direct link

Originally posted by Mirage_Main

On the topic of Mirage, is removing the blue trail of decoys on the table at all? I understand it’s probably due to needing a visual indicator of which one is a decoy, but it severely impairs the Mirage player when using, say, the ultimate indoors. Because footsteps have been removed from decoys and Mirage is easy to spot going into his ultimate now, his ultimate is mostly a disadvantage against experienced players as it makes it difficult to see the opponent while the opponent can track the real Mirage almost instantly. It just seems like a simple change that could be a minor buff, but I don’t have any data to support that other than anecdotes.

We wanna bring back footstep sounds for mirage decoys eventually! It's a technical challenge, and right now we want to be very careful not to do anything that could potentially drown out legit footstep sounds, seeing as they're in, uh, not so good a place. I've got an engineer looking at what's possible for me.

about 4 years ago - /u/DanielZKlein - Direct link

Originally posted by _H_Y_D_R_A_

Imagine NOT taking the Riot stance of "If they're OP on release we make more money because people spend more to get them and their cosmetics"

Honestly from someone who worked at Riot for 9 years that was never a conversation I've heard anyone having. We actively worked to release balanced champions, but League and Apex are very different games. In League, champion kits make up ~90% of the gameplay; in Apex it's more like 10%-20%.

about 4 years ago - /u/DanielZKlein - Direct link

Originally posted by psypher98

This is a really cool look into the thought process behind the release balance of Legends, thank you!

As a side note, your occasional detailed explanations behind certain design aspects of Apex have actually inspired me to begin perusing a career in game design lol

Good luck! Start designing things as soon as you can: make a mod or a small game (with friends for extra points), make a card game or a board game, or design some additional content for D&D (or, alternatively, a good tabletop roleplaying game, if you like). The best thing you can do to get better at design is to make sure you keep the time between trying something out and getting feedback as short as possible. I see a lot of people who are excited about game design write up these fancy documents for amazing games they might one day design with no way of making it happen. Instead if you design a 2 player card game by scribbling on index cards and getting a friend to playtest with, you will learn a hundred times as much. (Also bonus points if you can make it happen digitally/virtually so you don't have to unnecessarily meet people in real life during covid) (there's very easy to use tools I'm sure you can find).

Game design is really fulfilling and it feels like you'll never stop learning and getting better. The important thing to always remember is you know nothing about a game design decision until you've playtested it. Beware of excessive castle-building in the sky! (Although that of course can be fun, but it's not game design)