Original Post — Direct link

TL;DR:

The reason Rush sucked in BF1, BF4 is present in BFV again. The reason are map boundaries.

BF3 Boundaries:

https://i.imgur.com/ln6yymt.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/ohDlAlR.png

In general, MCOMs at the FAR side of the map for attackers, several possibles lines of defense for defenders until they reach the MCOMs. Phases are more open, i.e. more squares or rectangles then just lines, allowing for more maneuvering and flanking. Attackers can flank defenders in the first few lines of defense, or Defenders can flank and push back attackers when they're on the last line. Of course there are some exceptions, especially on Metro. But this is in general.

BF4/BFV boundaries:

https://i.imgur.com/SoPF9uk.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/E25DX7g.jpg

(Attackers come from NORTH)

MCOMs immediately at the edge of the CLOSE side of the map to the attackers; essentially just 1 line of defense for defenders. You don't defend 1 push, you lose the phase. Almost no room at all for maneuvering or flanking for either team. Again, a generalization, of course there's some exceptions.


Before anyone says it, I know - in BC2 and BF3, the maps were designed around Rush. That's why it was so insanely good in those games. The maps in BF4 & BF1 are designed for Conquest. But that's only part of the reason Rush was so awful it was barely playable in them.

In addition to just having maps in general that don't support structured game modes like Rush, they had the issue of absolutely atrocious map boundaries for each phase. This was far more of an issue than the maps not being designed for Rush specifically.

And BFV has it again.

Look at the first two phases of Twisted Steel Rush.

The very first phase, the map boundaries for the defender are a literal line. It's like 10m of actual playable area from the MCOM you defend to the out of bounds to attacker spawn. There is absolutely no way to flank or outmaneuvre the enemy at all. And the same of course applies for the attacker. If you try to flank through under the bridge, you're literally in open view to the defender spawn, which of course is also completely out of bound for you.

There's nothing either team can really do in this phase, except blob and hope your team outspams the enemy team. And the attackers have a Tank who is outside map boundaries for defenders. Couple that with the fact that, again the MCOMs are IMMEDIATELY at the edge of the map boundary to the attacker spawn, and I think we can see who is gonna win this phase 99% of the time.

The second phase is again very similar. The MCOMs are immediately at the map boundary towards the attacker spawn for the defenders. But this time, that's not the entire playable area for the defenders: 3/4 of the map boundaries for defenders are behind the MCOMs. This area is utterly and completely useless, you can't do anything from there. Oh, right. Except foil any attackers attempt at flanking. Because if you go here, you can see past the right of the building complex in a direct line to enemy spawn.

What this means is that again, the attackers only real option is a direct frontal assault on the MCOMs.

So it's just a blobfest of defender vs attacker again, until attackers get enough kills to make literally ONE push and then it's their phase again because the MCOMs are directly located at the defender's first line of defense.

Basically, in BF4/BF1/BFV Rush, the defenders can't fall back 5m without immediately conceding the MCOMs to the attacker. The MCOMs are facing TOWARDS the attacker spawn, not towards your own spawn.

Now, let's compare it to BF3 Rush, example map damavand peak:

https://i.imgur.com/ln6yymt.jpg

What is the first thing we immediately notice?

The MCOMs are located at the BACK of each phase, not at the front. The defenders have several lines of defense where they can fall back if need be, until they end up at the MCOMs. And the play areas in general are big enough or have enough routes and cover that flanking is a possiblity. While this wouldn't be possible on all BF1/4/V maps due to them not being designed for Rush, it'd certainly be possible on some maps if the boundaries and location of each phase was better.

External link →
about 5 years ago - /u/legmek - Direct link

Hello! I designed the Rush setups on both Narvik and Twisted Steel! Thank you for the informative feedback post!

I hear you about the first two sectors on Twisted Steel, its all very valid feedback! :) Do you think the 3rd and 4th sector are better?

How do you feel about Narvik vs Twisted Steel? I wanted to give the defenders more room to maneuver on Narvik, especially in sector 1 and 2.

If you have any more specific feedback (I'd LOVE to see some scribbles on the deploy screen or using the spectator tool) don't be afraid to tag me or write it here. Thank you!

about 5 years ago - /u/legmek - Direct link

Originally posted by Reclusifer

Really dont see why they didnt just tweak the breakthrough maps ever so slightly. That would of sufficed.

Anything that you personally would like to see?

about 5 years ago - /u/legmek - Direct link

Originally posted by Kestrel1207

First of all I wanna apologize in case I came off as overly harsh when saying something like "absolutely atrocious", of course it's just massive exaggeration, you know how people do on the internet. Didn't mean to insult anyone's work or anything like that, obviously.

I didn't get a chance to play Narvik's second phase yet, unfortunately, but the 1st and 3rd sector on Narvik kind of has similar issues to the ones I mentioned for Twisted Steel.

1st phase Narvik currently is:

https://i.imgur.com/Iqz6R3O.jpg

It's pretty much the same thing. The MCOMs are very close to the out of bounds in direction of Attacker spawn again, meaning that essentially, if the Attacker can push out of his "spawn", they're directly at the MCOM.

Here's my very awful and not really thought out at all microsoft paint attempt to show what I'd change:

https://i.imgur.com/L9nIrgU.jpg

The white bounds with the dotted lines through them should just be ignored, I didn't know how else to get rid of them lol.

Basically, it just opens up play more. Defenders can go further away from the MCOMs, essentially establishing a 1st line of defense, and they can then fall back to the MCOMs themselves in case they get overwhelmed or flanked.

And on the topic of flanks, both the north and south roads have been opened up to play for both sides. This allows the attackers to flank around the defender's 1st line, or conversely, allows the defenders to flank the attackers to recapture it if the attackers push up that far.

Granted, in the example I made, I realize it wouldn't work all that well because the distance itself is still too short, even with the "extended" area I gave it. I'd think probably, the MCOMs would have to be moved back to where the defender spawn is, moving that spawn then back further accordingly, but roughly keeping the attacker spawn as I painted it.

But this is kind of where the other big issue comes in, namely that the maps are not designed primarily for Rush, so there only is so much you can do obviously.

Narvik Phase 3 has the same problem; the Attacker spawn is far too close to the MCOM and could easily be pushed back a bit.

A great example of how the phases should be is actually Narvik phase 4!

https://imgur.com/a/6OwRYIQ

Generally speaking, this is more of how the phases should be. The MCOMs are closer to the defender spawn than the attacker spawn, and the attackers have to cross through a decent bit of neutral ground to get to them. The area to the north also allows Defenders to flank around and re-take a bit of land via flanks.

I think, given the "unoptimized" map layout (I meanthat the maps weren't really designed with Rush in mind) this phase is basically in general as good as Rush can be, in terms of map layout. There just needs to be more "Neutral" ground, in all the sectors I critized about in the comment and in the post the underlying problem is just that the only real neutral ground is in one line with the MCOMs.

Also, if at all possible, I think it'd be really helpful to be given direct overview layouts that feature all the phases of one map, similar to the Battlefield 3 and Battlefield 4 examples I linked in the post. I think it'd make it a lot easier for the community to provide good feedback if we had these sort of maps.

Edit:

Also, I agree with many other players here that Rush is a lot better with 24 player than 32, and I do think it should be balanced and designed around 24 players mainly. 24 players is what is was built around in Bad Company 1 & 2, and I presume Battlefield 3. 32 player Rush servers were still mostly fine in BF3, but it did start to become noticibly more crowded and unbalanced than 24 player.

And then there's 64 player metro rush, which... Let's not go there. Ugh.

It might be just from my experience working on Breakthrough, but I've always been a little bit wary of giving defenders too much combat area movement away from the objectives because it can result in them taking positions the attackers doesn't expect (which is normally fine) and spend most of their time shooting said attackers in the side, which is a pretty common cause of frustration - "I get shot from everywhere" etc. Flanking and moving up as a defender is a valid strategy though - so those two things kind become two ends of a scale that have to be balanced.

That said, I agree with what you're saying and will take it to heart, and will likely at least change sector 1 Narvik. Thank you again for giving such detailed feedback. :)

about 5 years ago - /u/legmek - Direct link

Originally posted by vitalityy

You need to look no further than the map design of BC2 and BF3 for inspiration on how to do rush correctly. I'm sure I dont need to tell you that the rush gamemode requires far more attention to detail than conquest due to the linear playstyle of the gamemode. I'm going to be honest, releasing rush 4 months post launch on only 3 maps seems like a way to set it up for failure, and die hard rush fans like myself don't hold much faith. I fear that fumbling this role-out in combination with the gamemode getting stale as its only 3 maps will lead to you guys saying "Hey guys we tried Rush, it just wasn't popular" and if thats the case, I and all the people I played rush with in past titles will be gone for good.

From my perspective at least, this is a chance to let you guys be in and help us define if Rush has a place in Battlefield V, and what that means. I'm very grateful that you and others spend so much time voicing your opinion in a constructive and detailed way - that way we can make the game greater, together. :)

about 5 years ago - /u/legmek - Direct link

Originally posted by natemach97

Hey! I have a question for ya that you may or may not be allowed to answer. When you say that "I designed the Rush setups on both" do you mean that you and only you designed it, or you worked with a team to design it and you were the lead on those? I understand if you're not allowed to tell me that, but I would love to know.

Also, I really enjoy seeing you and other DICE employees being more and more active on Reddit. Keep up the good work, wishing you and yours the best

I and only I set up where the objectives are placed, where the combat area is going to be and where the spawns are, as well as some other things, at least on Narvik and Twisted Steel.

I haven't designed the specifics of how Rush functions as a game mode, that is up to our great game-mode team. :)

about 5 years ago - /u/legmek - Direct link

Originally posted by Forgd

Please fix Twisted Steel for the love of god. The attacker do not need a tank to take objectives in that mode. Its ridiculous to give them one. Playing Attack isn't fun cause its too easy. Playing defense isn't fun cause its impossible. Needs to be fixed ASAP.

So you'd rather not have a tank at all? Or one tank per team?