about 4 years ago - /u/Proteus505 - Direct link

Hey everyone, we'd love to get some feedback around some upcoming balance changes we're talking about that would release alongside the Hunting Grounds and the progression rework. While we have ideas around some deeper systemic improvements for later releases, we'd like to make some changes to increase build diversity in the short term.

  1. Elemental Bonuses - We'd like weapon and armor elemental bonuses to have a significantly bigger impact on your overall damage output and resistance. Right now, most end game builds don't prioritize picking gear based on element and we want to make this a more viable choice. Our damage system will work a bit differently after the progression rework so it's hard to talk about numbers without context, but we're looking at possibly doubling the effectiveness of elemental bonuses.
  2. Cell Balance - We're taking a look at a lot of our underused cells and thinking about how we could buff or rework them to open up new build options. There are a ton of possibilities here but we would love to hear your suggestions.
  3. Low Health Builds - Is it time to tune down the low health builds? The combination of Discipline/Rage/Wild Frenzy/Iceborne is fun but we feel like the risk reward balance isn't in a great spot. Getting significant damage bonuses is fine for having a low survivability risky build, but Iceborne's damage reduction and strong lifesteal negate a lot of this risk. Some ideas we are discussing are making Discipline +1/+2/+3 only reduce health to 75% (not changing +4/+5/+6), forcing you to go deeper into the perk to gain full benefits, so a small hit to perk economy. Also being discussed is reducing Iceborne's lifesteal so it takes longer to regain lost health.

In addition to these proposed changes, we're going to reduce or remove the base lantern capacitor from Escalation, which will reduce overall power creep in the game. We're making a ton of other progression changes so we're hoping that overall the health of the game will be much improved.

We'd love to hear what you think and any other suggestions you have for increasing build diversity!

Thanks!

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about 4 years ago - /u/Proteus505 - Direct link

Originally posted by CrystalSparkz

I agree with the general intention/direction of this post, but what I don't understand is why +6 is always the mandatory max cell perk for all cells, you guys are limiting your own creativity and maybe even potential of new cells and overall balance of the cell system with the mandatory rule that all cells must go from +1 to +6. Instead, maybe weaker cell perks such as vampiric and assassin's vigour can max out at +3 for full benefits, but give more overall benefits compared to +3 perks of +6 cell types. Also, maybe even raise the cap of full cell benefits from +6 to +9 for certain cells, such as iceborn. This rule that +6 has to be the max cell cap for full benefits makes it harder for the cell system to be balanced due to cell perk economic problems. I also have some ideas to how to nerf and buff certain cell perks, but I feel like that should be a separate thread.

Yes we've been exploring this space too. We've considered "squishing" a lot of our weaker cells and having them cap at +3.

about 4 years ago - /u/Proteus505 - Direct link

Originally posted by GeorgeEmber

i honestly don't want to change my kit everytime i fight a different elemental behemoth, i already have to change my weapon and cells when doing patrols. i don't want to use armor just because it keeps me alive, i want to use them because they complement my build with good cells. besides, if you want elemental (dis)advantages to play a much impactful role, then what are we supposed to do during escalations? die whenever a behemoth of the opposite element shows up?

Opposite element behemoths only show up in Shock Escalation, which we are removing. All other seasons don't have opposite elements show up, so you'll never get the negative power apply.

about 4 years ago - /u/Proteus505 - Direct link

Originally posted by Meirnon

  1. Lowlife builds are "fine". I think some top-end nerfs need to happen, but they don't need to be drastic. It's the lack of diversity in other archetypes and the continued building of synergy into the archetype that make the problem. It's important to recognize that Lowlife builds are actually generally two very different build archetypes. Lowlife Flawless and Lowlife Iceborne.

Lowlife Flawless, which uses discipline and predator in conjunction with lowlife, is mostly fine. It has a VERY demanding ask of the player's mastery of the game to use correctly. Its main problem is not itself a consequence of its own power, but of many, many factors extrinsic to it that allow it to stack power on power. And even if you nerf the component perks, the remaining archetypes are very close behind in terms of power and hungry to take its spot, without any of other power components that drove it specifically over the edge also being taken out. And since the goal is to take out the power problem holistically (I hope), nerfing Lowlife Flawless components outright along with those other driving factors may be an overcorrection. I'd be very careful when addressing these components directly because they are not specifically the major cause of the power problem, and they become much healthier when those other causes are controlled better due to things like staggerlocking and multiplicative damage sources having a disproportionate effect on outcomes when paired with this raw power. There is also just the simple problem of relativity. Lowlife Flawless is only so outstandingly powerful relative to the power floor. If we had methods of having a higher power floor, then the content floor could be lower. If the content floor were lower, then Lowlife Flawless wouldn't seem so stupendously outperforming.

Lowlife Iceborne on the other hand, namely the iceborne portion of it, has its problem rooted in "you can make infinite mistakes and always recover". Iceborne has no limiting factor that punishes you for making repeated mistakes or limits the amount you can recover from your mistakes. The 50% hp (which is actually meaningfully higher ehp due to the DR%) "restriction" is not a meaningful restriction. My personal preference for iceborne is turning it into a red/chip health mechanic of sorts; if you take damage, half of it or so is turned to red/chip health. You can lifesteal back the red/chip health, but if you get hit again, you lose any remaining red/chip health you didn't heal back. I understand that it would be a lot of work, particularly on the UX/UI side of things, for a mechanic that only happens with Iceborne, but since Iceborne is so widely used, I think it makes sense to invest in that direction slightly.

This is the important bit: I think most folks problem with Lowlife builds isn't with Lowlife builds itself. Their problem is that there's no alternatives which compete, and that even if you don't build lowlife out of principle, your build will play exactly like lowlife. That's the problem at the kernel of the critique, I believe - not that lowlife's too strong, just that there's no meaningful alternative. People want to play builds with a greater amount of identity in them, to feel like even if they built an optimized build, it wouldn't play exactly the same and so they're getting an intrinsic reward out of that playstyle, and that they have a greater amount of options. As I said in my critique a few days ago, even small changes in playstyle identity have a massive impact on the psyche of players. Boreus Momentum Blades CB becoming a thing with a simple mechanics change has had a much larger impact on the identity and play of CB users than many of the deliberate and work-intensive development choices. It speaks volumes that players have such a disproportionate visceral impact to something as small as "which buttons do I spam" in the scheme of things compared to large design decisions. And I don't mean to say "stop making large design decisions" by this - rather, I'd like to think you can learn more about how to affect your community with your design decisions with this information so you can make smarter use of the bandwidth you have. Players are strange and find rewards in things developers might overlook the importance of.

I'd like to add a small tangent here and just provide what might be a controversial take... I don't think Attack Speed should be a mutable stat. Or at least not one so easily mutable. I think some mechanics, be it from the behemoth, or a weapon's toolkit, etc. etc. can make sense to enhance attack speed. But at its core, I think attack speed is so inherently core to combat design (giving you, the developer, the tools to say "what kind of attacks should fit in what kinds of openings for what kinds of situations, etc. etc.,") that giving players easy ways to subvert that combat design is unhealthy outside of very carefully weighed and measured scenarios and toolkits. Its impact on damage output is also significant, having a multiplicative damage output in addition to its possible effects on "break points" - the idea that you can fit X number of combos in an opening, but with attackspeed you might be able to fit X+1 number of combos into an opening, an important thing in a game where much of your damage is often backloaded into combo finishers on every weapon - making it hard to ignore its role in the power creep issue over the beta where we had very few attack speed options but many such options in the current iteration of the game. Base attack speed is also core to many weapons' identities. Being able to speed up an axe to chainblade-levels of chop-chopping is funny and novel, but it also undermines the core fantasy of the axe. This, on top of many input-related bugs with attack speed leads me to the feeling that attack speed should NOT be a stat players can so freely alter. If weapons don't feel good at the base attack speed, change the base attack speed, don't lock making the weapon feel good behind RNG cell acquisition, and absolutely do everything you can to keep a tighter lock on combat. The reason MH's combat is so beloved is because of its sincerely deliberate attention to how weapons engage in fights, and attack speed is possibly the most visible way that it manages to build weapon identities at a core level, as it defines how a weapon class even begins to engage with a fight.

In conclusion, I honestly am at a loss as to what exactly you could do in specifically the short term, lol. There's so many systemic changes and neglected overgrowths to be trimmed that simple and immediate fixes are unlikely to do a whole lot to fix the crucial things that need to change. I think your biggest challenge is going to be identifying the things which are fine to keep, which need to go, and not overcorrecting or undercorrecting based on those perceptions. And I think smart decisions will have a more significant impact on the community more than large decisions. It's a very difficult task you've got for yourself, but one which I think is entirely feasible to solve in a way that addresses the concerns of the community, newbie and veteran alike.

Thanks for the in depth feedback. I agree with a lot of this and you raise some good points.

On the topic of the hidden 10% elemental damage bonus when fighting the opposite element, we're looking at removing that and putting that damage bonus in the actual elemental power so it's more player facing.

We're also taking a look at the damage curves in general (the stuff that converts power differentials into final damage multipliers) and exploring making the curve steeper in most cases so you feel your progression more for power deltas. There's a bunch of context around this that I won't get into (don't want to spoil all the surprises), but we want you to feel power more as you progress through the game. We're taking great care to make sure the top end still feels balanced.

I would love to look at making more behemoth attacks elemental or make a bigger portion of it elemental to make elemental resistances mean more. I think it might make the game more intuitive since many players probably feel like using Frost armor against a Frost behemoth should give them a bunch of extra protection, but as you said, a lot of behemoth attacks do purely physical damage.

about 4 years ago - /u/TravisDay - Direct link

Originally posted by Xardas_88

Where is Travis Day?

I'm right here!

We have a tremendous amount of work in flight and I've been deep in it for months now so just popping in to say "Hi, I'm alive, and we're intensely excited for all the changes coming to Dauntless. I hope you are too!"

about 4 years ago - /u/Proteus505 - Direct link

Originally posted by Skitzotech

My thoughts? (dont listen to the big dauntless youtubers that cry about iceborne somehow ruining the game)

I'll be 100% honest I started playing this game early last year and I started it with my good friend friend. We both got a solid month into the game and hit a wall or repetition and big monsters that seemed to oneshot, defy physics, 1 frame insta attack with no tells... etc etc etc.

When we got to the dire patrol karabac, embermane and stormclaws levels my friend just quit out of frustration. No matter the kit we made... how we played... how many tutorials we watched... we would constantly get 1 shotted. And anyone who plays games knows that nothing pisses you off more than insta dying and feeling as if there was no possible counterplay.

Me having slightly more tolerance to rage games than him gave the game a few more days. And I got my hands on iceborne. That cell single handedly kept me playing this game for this long.

Have you guys ever thought that maybe early game survivability should be more on the plate than "nerf iceborne"? Because I'm sure I am not the only one who can definitively say that iceborne single handedly kept them playing this game.

Currently i use parasitic +3 on all of my builds that dont require +6 wild frenzy because its literally only 1 cell to get life steal as apposed to 2 icebornes. I think maybe there arent enough good survivability cells

I think our new system will be a lot more forgiving for players who find the game harder. We aren't making the game easier, but we are allowing players of all skill levels to progress through the game. If you are better at the game, you'll push further faster and gain XP faster. If you aren't as skilled, you can grind out lower level behemoths and level up slower, but the idea is that you'll never hit a point where you feel stuck.

about 4 years ago - /u/Proteus505 - Direct link

Originally posted by cherrybomb0388

I like this idea a lot. Another though i had was make it so the elemental resistances on armor piece would count towards their respective defense cell, such that 2 pieces of armor with fire resistance and a single +3 fireproof cell equals +6 fireproof.

Yeah we've talked about this a lot. We want to remove all the immunity effect cells from the game and bake them into elemental set bonuses. Not sure on timeline though but that's the thought right now.

about 4 years ago - /u/Proteus505 - Direct link

Originally posted by Xanekus

Do not cripple discipline builds. I personally am not an elitest "dark soul" player who want's life as tough as possible and this also isn't an e-sport game so why take the discipline build away from people who enjoy using it? I was just saying yesterday how i like the game so much more being able to heal through some bull shit i got hit by in a dark phase where i have no fair chance to dodge umbral puddles being thrown on me. There are plenty of people out there not using low hp tanky builds as is because they want the fastest times possible. The penalty of using a low hp build with ice-borne and no predator is already in place because the people using them will get slower kill times compared to these people with builds synergizing bonuses from predator + discipline +rage+wild frenzy killing behemoth's in 20s. Furthermore, you still have to i-frame dodge attacks or you'll never get your combo's off...behemoth's staggering players still exists and beyond that on harder difficulties iceborne + tough still won't save you from the most deadly attacks.

As far as lantern power creep...it's literally what got me to come back to the game after 2 years and got 3 other friends to want to play. Remove Discipline builds AND power creep...you'll lose players and a lot of them i'm sure, thanks!

edit: When i say "There are plenty of people out there not using low hp builds as is because they want the fastest times possible." I'm talking about low hp ice-borne builds not predator ones abusing tragic echo or using berserker cell with shrowd unique effect...it was late when i made the post so i used the wrong wording, my apologies.

After reading a lot of the feedback, I think we've decided to forgo any nerfs on cells at this point and just focus on the base lantern capacitor for the time being. As a lot of people have pointed out, we shouldn't change too much at once. We are going to buff a bunch of underutilized cells though.

about 4 years ago - /u/Proteus505 - Direct link

Originally posted by RandomGuy1h1

I feel like reducing both the lantern and the life steal from iceborn might be too much for people who aren't that great at dodging (me).

Yeah we tend to agree. We're going to forgo cell nerfs for this release and re-evaluate after the lantern capacitor change.

about 4 years ago - /u/Proteus505 - Direct link

Originally posted by AodanGaming

I hope this doesn't mean giving people free top 100 placement in trials, once that finally gets love in 2021. Some content is meant to be hard and should stay hard as a carrot to entice players to improve.

In terms of what your saying about this new "leveling" system, what about the people who spent the time hitting 50/50 in the current system?

People who grinded Mastery will have much less grind to do in the Slayer’s Path and will get way more bonus Merits as part of the migration.

about 4 years ago - /u/Proteus505 - Direct link

Originally posted by zhinroze

I only have one request. Make the lantern a prismatic cell please. That'd expand build possibilities to endless degrees. For us non-meta builders.(Can I get a woop for the +6 Grace for my Axe please).

Yeah that’s a cool idea. We would love to add more customization and progression to lanterns, along with more lanterns.