over 3 years ago - /u/CreatureTech-PHX - Direct link

Let's Talk about Design!

Hello, Slayers!

1.6.3 is here and we’re all excited that you’re out there punching the Chronovore on the Paradox Breaks, but let’s take a look back at Elder and Primal Behemoth encounters. We had a lot of conceptual designs with these encounters, and we learned a lot during the course of their development. We think this is a valuable opportunity to explore our design with you.

Join us as we take a look back at our initial intents and the lessons we learned along the way.

Primal Behemoths

Our Design Intent

We wanted to explore diversifying our combat gameplay with both Primal and Elder encounters. The initial idea was to have three unique timelines: past, present, and future. The goal behind these was to create Behemoth modifiers that would meaningfully change the combat experience. We wanted players to focus on the core fundamentals of each Behemoth, adding a layer of strategy to each encounter. The modifiers were our way of ushering players into new strategies.

For Primals specifically, we asked ourselves how we could make a modifier that provided the player with choice, while stopping the usual stun-lock cycle. An attempt was made to build an encounter that gave players more choice about how to tackle the encounter. Players were meant to assess the individual Behemoth and take down the pillars that applied to that fight. Our intent was to allow the player to choose how many pillars they wanted to knock down, based on their confidence and assessment of the situation. We believed that this would add more agency to each encounter.

We also planned to launch this content inside Portals. This would have added a layer of intent to each encounter What this means is that players would know exactly what they were about to get into before opting into the encounter. Players would get to enter into these encounters willingly in an enclosed arena. Unfortunately, performance work took precedent, and we were forced to delay Portals to a future date. Turns out adding numerous instances to an island is tricky business!

The Final Product and What We Learned

Over the course of development, a few things changed.

As mentioned before, Portals were delayed, so we opted to place Primal encounters directly on the islands in the Hunting Grounds. We found that our super high-skill players understood and enjoyed the encounters, but the public nature of the Hunting Grounds worked against them. If these encounters had been inside their own bespoke areas — ones that players could opt into — they probably would have been more enjoyable. The level of complexity here was just too much for a public area. The pillars blocked healing, made your arsenal obsolete in some cases, and if you lacked dodging skills, they were far too difficult. This showed us the max difficulty that public areas can handle.

Another aspect that added friction was the spawn rate of Primal encounters. They were very frequent, and if players didn’t enjoy them, they were unavoidable. Once again, having Primal Behemoths isolated to specific areas would have helped.

So with all this in mind, we made some changes. We decreased the number of pillars from four to one to reduce confusion and margin of error. We also tuned Primal spawn rates a little bit.

Going forward, we plan to put more work into making these encounters more variable (e.g. variable pillars, rewards). This way, we can tune Primals and put them behind portals in the future, letting our more experienced players play this content in a more controlled environment.

Elder Behemoths

Our Design Intent

The thinking behind Elder Behemoths was a lot simpler compared to Primals. We wanted players to consider windows of opportunity for attacking. We wanted them to ask, “Where do I aim my next hit and when?” It was another way to challenge the traditional stun-lock tactics used by advanced players. Basically: If parts are intermittently blocked, it's harder to chain stuns and part breaks..

Behemoth speed was also reduced to make their movement more deliberate. This was to give players moments of opportunity and allow them to study Elder Behemoth patterns. We also wanted players to think about their full offensive toolset. Wide, sweeping attacks were less valuable here; players would need to aim their attacks with precision.

We also wanted to inject some lore into the battle. These Behemoths are from the far-flung future where civilization has torn itself apart. Their shields are scraps from battlefields: shields and airship parts held together by psionic energies.

The Final Product and What We Learned

All in all, these encounters feel good, but we wish we'd taken more time to hone and polish the experience. For example, there was a desire to make the shield more adaptive, so it would fit each Behemoth’s unique shape and size. There was also a desire to make encounters like this more variable. Changing up variables like shield shape, size, and speed would have been really neat to see. We also believe we could have done a better job selling the narrative of these shields and Elder Behemoths. We would have loved to see more unique models that really showed the turmoil that the Shattered Isles was facing in the future — think unique shields and Behemoth skins.

The Final, Final Takeaways

It feels good to have more variety, and players were genuinely excited about these encounters at launch. The design intent behind these encounters is still something we want to explore in the future, but the lessons here will impact what we deliver next. Bottom line, we still want to shake up combat encounters by offering variety while disrupting tried and true strategies like stun locking. We want to challenge our players who’ve seen it all.

If we did this again, we would select a few Behemoths and tinker with them instead of trying to make a one-size-fits-all modifier event. This would allow more for more polish alongside a stronger, more focused design.

A few other key takeaways:

  • Changing up strategies is good if the modifiers are fair.
  • Making a new modifier isn’t always the solution.
  • We’ve pushed Behemoth modifier difficulty as far as we’re comfortable with.
  • We want to do more with dynamic arenas rather than Behemoth modifiers.
  • If we name something ELDER or PRIMAL, we should have correspondingly AWESOME Behemoth variants that work with these bold narrative titles.
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over 3 years ago - /u/CreatureTech-PHX - Direct link

Originally posted by Cavemanjazza

I know it's not related to elder and primal behemoths, however... I'm really quite sad about the Chronovore stuff. The behemoth itself is really cool and I like it a lot, but I just miss amps so much. Is there any chance for a real radiant escalation in the future?

It's not off the table!

over 3 years ago - /u/CreatureTech-PHX - Direct link

Originally posted by StormerGaming

i honestly enjoyed primals as they were and i wish to see their original 4 pillar fights be introduced into the paradox breaks as they eventually will no longer be on other islands, and they would’ve made for interesting fights and they would certainly be unique if they had a custom texture but i see where y’all were going with this, elders tho... their shields shouldn’t activate on attacks that are A. out of range B. minor inconveniences like the radiant drone or kharabak boomerangs tho you all know we’d still love some radiant variants ^ but i get that this is not escalation, not anymore. but i do wish that one day, we do eventually get a radiant escalation tho... :/

We definitely want to bring them back in their own bespoke area. We want players who want to tackle this content to be able to.

over 3 years ago - /u/CreatureTech-PHX - Direct link

Originally posted by Pwague

is the new weapon anywhere on the agenda of updates?

Not at this time, but we will have more information on juicy updates soon.

over 3 years ago - /u/Ahrelia-PHX - Direct link

Originally posted by StormerGaming

i honestly enjoyed primals as they were and i wish to see their original 4 pillar fights be introduced into the paradox breaks as they eventually will no longer be on other islands, and they would’ve made for interesting fights and they would certainly be unique if they had a custom texture but i see where y’all were going with this, elders tho... their shields shouldn’t activate on attacks that are A. out of range B. minor inconveniences like the radiant drone or kharabak boomerangs tho you all know we’d still love some radiant variants ^ but i get that this is not escalation, not anymore. but i do wish that one day, we do eventually get a radiant escalation tho... :/

I'm fixing this as we speak, and in 1.6.5, Elder shields will only activate when hit by a player's weapon, and not by other AoEs (pangar lantern, drone attacks, etc)

over 3 years ago - /u/CreatureTech-PHX - Direct link

Originally posted by Draven1187

elders were a pain in public, cause people didn't understand how to fight them, which ended up getting me shocked almost to death multiple times. would prefer to see them behind portals or get their own island.

Exactly! We learned a lot about what kind of difficult content can live in public areas.

The mechanics were a little much for random groups.

over 3 years ago - /u/CreatureTech-PHX - Direct link

Originally posted by Antoxik

they already said it should be patched in 1.6.5

Yes, this is more of a bug than a design failure... It def wasn't intended, and we are fixing it!

over 3 years ago - /u/Ahrelia-PHX - Direct link

Originally posted by [deleted]

[deleted]

I replied to another person in this, but I've changed Elder shields for a future patch to trigger only off weapon impacts, so no drone, Pangar Lantern, etc.

over 3 years ago - /u/CreatureTech-PHX - Direct link

Originally posted by Hushini

The key issue I felt hit you with elders and primals, as a more longtime player, is lack of planning. You didnt plan for the possibility that a player might not enjoy these encounters, and made them far too frequent. Somehow, through logic beyond my capabilities, you didnt plan for pubs being idiots, and made 2 encounters that are exactly why so much of your playerbase feels the need to play solo, and only solo. More in detail, the fights feel really specifically catered to certain weapons and styles, contrary to your goal of “freedom of playstyle”. Original primals, you broke more than one pillar, fight is terrible for slower weapons. Elders shields get triggered by nearly everything, and move around randomly for some f**king reason. Who does this disadvantage most, the strikers and chainblades players who can dash in and out whenever they wish, or someone with a hammer, where instead of being rewarded for completing a combo, something hard to do with these fights, triggers shields with the combo finisher and kills teammates. Is this a testing issue? No way in hell you spend however long adding these encounters and didnt see what they actually were. even beyond lack of balance, the designs of both the fights are plagued with issues. 99 times out of 100, you cant beat a primal with more than 2 broken. So you made a pick your poison situation, but then made no limit to breaking them. Ive broken more pillars than I can count because they are fitted terribly to the environment and the behemoths loves squating on their terribly thought out wound damage dildo. Why arent the pillars a hold instead? or even a tap? then in their update you decreased it to one pillar. That stops being pick your poison, and becomes poison or no poison. boy oh boy, wound pillar primals sure offer up choices to every other weapon than pike. You made a badly thought out design, then in an attempt to fix it cut out the interesting part of it. Elders are genuinely my worst experience in my time playing this game, since I started in december 2019. To not make this an entirely negative comment, the paradox breaks were a great way to incorporate keystones into a public island, except for the primal and elder behemoth designs dissuading pubs.

I think time constraints definitely played into this. We're having a lot of internal conversations about our pipeline and how much content we should be putting out each patch. Ideally, future content will get the time and polish they need before going out. We'll have another State of Dauntless around this in the future!

over 3 years ago - /u/CreatureTech-PHX - Direct link

Originally posted by djp1968

Some of your learnings don't resonate with me at all. Not sure if I'm the weird one, or if you're still out of touch in some big ways.

Players were meant to assess the individual Behemoth and take down the pillars that applied to that fight. Our intent was to allow the player to choose how many pillars they wanted to knock down, based on their confidence and assessment of the situation. We believed that this would add more agency to each encounter.

I have killed many, many Primals at this point, and never once thought about the fight like this. My decision about what, if any, pillars to break had absolutely nothing to do with the individual behemoth. It has never been anything more complicated than, "Do I think it might be at all dangerous? Then maybe break the healing pillar." Otherwise why bother? I have no incentive to destroy pillars other than making sure I win the fight, and breaking any of the other types of pillars doesn't feel like it really factors into deciding whether I'll win the fight. If I have a pike in hand, and there is a wounding pillar up, especially in public groups I don't think, "Oh no! I'd better break the wounding pillar!" I think, "Another stupid fight where my weapon has been impacted, and I can either punish my whole group on my behalf or just take a bit longer to kill." And really, if people do break pillars for their own benefit, in a random island of 6 people, pretty good bet somebody wants to break every single one of the pillars.

TL;DR The pillars didn't lead to me making any sort of interesting decision making or add "agency"

We also wanted players to think about their full offensive toolset. Wide, sweeping attacks were less valuable here; players would need to aim their attacks with precision.

Yeah, I didn't do that either. If I'm using chainblades, which I often am, I never once said, "I'm such a clever strategist that I just won't use my stronger attacks. I'll just keep dancing around poking the behemoth with a stick. That's how I'll become a better player." I just said, "These shields weren't thought out very well. I can either tiptoe around doing nothing and being ineffective, or I can just yolo it, set off the shields constantly, and win anyway." Guess which one I do every single time? Chainblades are the worst of this for me, but it applies in some way to most weapons. I can either tiptoe around and be safe but ineffective, or I can just ignore the shields and smash away. I'll take some damage, but still won't really be at risk. To head this off at the pass, making the shields more dangerous wouldn't suddenly accomplish the goal either. I'd still find it impractical and un-fun to avoid the shields. I'd probably just decide it wasn't a fun game, or at least to avoid Elders.

For my purposes, I like checking boxes, so I liked having more skill trees to earn and buy. But I didn't think the primal or elder encounters added anything positive to the game in their own right. They aren't interesting or challenging. It is more like if someone said, "I want to make the game more challenging, so while you're fighting, I'm just gonna stand behind you and periodically smack you in the back of the head." That's not challenging or fun. Just annoying.

I think a lot of this hits the nail on the head.

We wanted to have players consider their enemy and adjust to match it, but obviously that didn't click. We realize we shouldn't be pushing players to use tactics they don't find fun. Like you said, most players won't change their chainblade tactic, they'll just think the mechanic is bad. We shouldn't be forcing players hands in this way.

As for pillars, I totally agree as well. The decisions weren't as meaningful as we wanted. We'd love to tackle this again in the future with richer and more dynamic decisions!