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Hello guys!
It’s my second attempt here. (First one here : https://www.reddit.com/r/dauntless/comments/k9sqvq/quick_analysis_getting_experience_above/)
I already made a Reddit post on this topic but it failed a little bit because it was messy and the data I gathered were wrong. Let’s do it again but better!
What I’m trying to share here (and tried with the first post) is that, in my opinion, the Reforge system is a bit clunky. I enjoy it a lot and it’s a lot of fun but… the last levels are really too long and tiresome (from 15 to 20 i would say). Making the reforges really frustrating to do.
Here is why:
- So many people are farming Escalations instead of HGs
- So many people value Bounty Tokens so much, as you can skip a lot of progress in those specific levels.
I made a software in Python that will calculate and create graphs that I am about to share down below using a specific situation.
(Can share the soft later if someone is interested, just need to make a better UI :D)
Let’s go.
Important :
In all the graphs and presentations below, i’m talking about “XP Efficiency” and “XP by Behemoth”.
In fact, for each calculation I will try to “normalize” the xp Behemoths can give you. Meaning that, if I earn 225xp, I will also take into account the PowerMult. 2 examples :
- I earn 225xp with a 100% power mult -> XP Efficiency : 225XP
- I earn 225xp with a 50% power mult -> XP Efficiency : 122,5XP
I’m making sure we are talking about the same thing from HG1 to HG18.
Talking about the same base unit : A Behemoth with 100% HP and 100% PowerMult.
Presentation of the soft and the current situation of the xp grinding.
The data I fed my software with are the required XP per level, the XP earned when killing Behemoths and Behemoths’ levels in Hunting Ground. You can split those data in several scenarios and see how any change can impact the XP grind. The first graphs use ingame data to compare the impact of some XP buffs, like Slayer Club etc…
The standard data:
The different Scenarios are the following one:
“No Reforge Nodes”:
- Neutral Advantage
- XP boost from Slayer Path: 0
- Weapon Power from Slayer Path: 0
- % Power from Axe Reforge: 0
- Slayer Club: 0
“Full Power Reforge Nodes”:
- Neutral Advantage
- XP boost from Slayer Path: 0
- Weapon Power from Slayer Path: 15
- % Power from Axe Reforge: 5%
- Slayer Club: 0
“XP Reforge Nodes”:
- Neutral Advantage
- XP boost from Slayer Path: 15%
- Weapon Power from Slayer Path: 0
- % Power from Axe Reforge: 0
- Slayer Club: 0
“Elemental Advantage” :
- Elemental Advantage
- XP boost from Slayer Path: 0
- Weapon Power from Slayer Path: 0
- % Power from Axe Reforge: 0
- Slayer Club: 0
“Slayer Club”:
- Neutral Advantage
- XP boost from Slayer Path: 0
- Weapon Power from Slayer Path: 0
- % Power from Axe Reforge: 0
- Slayer Club: 20%
“Full Bonuses”:
- Elemental Advantage
- XP boost from Slayer Path: 15%
- Weapon Power from Slayer Path: 15
- % Power from Axe Reforge: 5%
- Slayer Club: 0
“No Reforge Nodes”:
- Elemental Advantage
- XP boost from Slayer Path: 15%
- Weapon Power from Slayer Path: 15
- % Power from Axe Reforge: 5%
- Slayer Club: 20%
If I’m a level 20 Slayer, the XP efficiency shows me that it’s better for me to fight a lvl 25 Behemoth. (We already knew that).
Also note the impact of Elemental Advantage increasing the XP Efficiency. Getting all the bonuses is also a huge difference compared to a new Slayer (Scenario: No Reforge Nodes).
Now. Let’s take the max efficiency (so above lvl 25 Behemoth for a level 20 slayer) for every Slayer level. Here is the graph we get:
Reminder: The reason why we can go beyond 300+ XP here is because we will earn 225 xp (+15 and +20%) multiplied by the PowerMult which will be positive at lower levels.
What we are getting here is, because of the Behemoth Power growing faster than the Slayer level, the more we grind, the lower the XP efficiency is.
Ok, but that’s only Behemoth Power. What if we make the same graph taking HGs into account?
Same results. The more we grind, the less the XP efficiency is. But above level 15, the curve significantly drops.
Why ? Because in the last HG, you cannot really face Behemoths at the right level for you to maximize the XP Efficiency. When you are level 6, you can easily fight level 11 Behemoth. But when you are 18, you will have to face lvl 18 Behemoth.
The final result is this one : You have to kill a huge amount of Behemoths to level up at the last levels. From almost 1 Behemoth at lvl 1 to 20+ Behemoths at level 19 (Scenario “No Reforge Nodes)
One missing Data : Behemoth HealthBuff.
Ok, hope you understood everything until now.
Let’s consider another data that we didn’t take for now: Behemoth Health.
I don’t have any official data here but i’m wondering if a lvl 20 Koshai doesn’t have more Health than a lvl 2 Koshai.
BTW, even if it’s not the case, you have to face stronger Behemoth with more health because of the “Lesser / Normal / Dire / Heroic” Behemoths.
Meaning that, you have to face a Behemoth with more power compared to you but also with more health. So our XP Efficiency is not that accurate and precise.
I still need to work on the soft on this topic to be more precise but what i’ve done here is just to consider an increase of the BehemothHealth based on the power. And that should do the job to point out the issue even if it’s not 100% accurate. (Will try to consider the number of Lesser/Normal/Dire in each HG Map later).
Here is the result if I add a Behemoth Health Buff of 1%. (If we consider that a level 1 Behemoth will have 100% HP, a Behemoth level 2 will have 101% etc..)
Scenarios taken into account in that demonstration are the “Full Bonuses & Slayer Club” and the same one with a 1% Behemoth Health Buff.
We can identify there an important impact of the Behemoth Health increase throughout their leveling adding another layer of difficulty and buff to the Behemoths worsening the XP Efficiency during our grinding.
I took a 1% Health Buff but you can imagine the impact of this health buff if it would be something like 5% or even more.
Proposal
Let me make some proposals here and first share with you the result. The scenario used is the “No Reforges Nodes” above, one with standard data and a second one with my proposal data.
The data :
I mainly smoothed the power progression of the Behemoths and the xp required for each level.
One other big change is the Hunting Grounds with higher behemoth level sooner to make level 25 possible for the last hunting grounds.
Please note that for both cases, I also took into account a 1% Behemoth Health Buff so that the curves reflect as much as possible the reality of Dauntless.
At the end of the story we still have some involvement required for the last levels as it should be but way more player friendly to do and without it being frustrating.
TL/DR :
As I already stated in my previous Reddit Post, leveling from 15 to 20 feels really really bad because :
- Behemoths are more powerful than you (+22 to +40 by level for Behemoths and +20 by level for Slayers)
- Behemoths have more life, making them longer to kill
- You cannot find the right Behemoth levels to maximize your xp (No lvl 24 Behemoth when you are level 19 for example)
This leads to multiple issues :
- Players spamming Escas instead of HG because it’s quicker to level up with
- Bounty Tokens are god tiers from 15 to 20 because you can skip entire levels with them. Giving a huge advantage to paying players.
- Discouraging a lot of players to reforge. Lvl 1 to 15 it’s really fun to play and to level up but after level 15 you already know that you will suffer killing hundreds of Behemoths in Hades Reach.
Finally, I already know that adding level 24 Behemoths in HG won’t solve everything because their power and health will be so high that it won’t be that worth it. That’s why I also wanted to bring this info in the calc.
Maybe this should be lowered instead of Power, that’s another topic, I don’t want to take decisions for PHXL. Just wanted to point out this issue, I'm sure a lot of players did.
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