Original Post — Direct link

I am playing this game without killing any animals, using animal products, or using anything derived from animal products.

What I expected:

  • expected to miss out on certain parts of gameplay, like hunting, and certain professions, like butchery
  • expected nutrition to be more challenging, being limited to plant foods
  • expected to lose out on certain efficiencies, like mid-game leather tool upgrades
  • expected to miss out on certain clothing options and decorations

What I did not expect:

  • did not expect to be shut out from mechanical power generation
  • did not expect to be shut out from most professions beyond the early game, including pottery, science, and industry

As far as I can tell, the crux is that "lubricant" can be sourced only from animal tallow, rather than from plant oils. Lubricant is required for the waterwheel and windmill, and thus required for anything dependent on advanced engineering research papers. (Lubricant's alternative recipe uses oil, which recursively requires that engineering research.)

I am a new player, and given that this lubricant ingredient requirement is not yet reflected in the wiki (windmill, waterwheel), I can only assume it's a recent change. I also note that this particular dependency is not yet reflected in the in-game tech tree overview.

Presumably this change was a purposeful design decision, meant to increase technological interdependencies and player cooperation. My guess is that the resulting complete lockout of pacifist gameplay is either

  • a) some kind of rigid anti-vegan societal statement from SLG, or
  • b) a simple oversight.

Given how much effort they appear to have gone through to make pacifist players feel welcome in this game (generally non-violent gameplay, extensive plant-based food options, references to meatless diets in flavor texts, etc.), I'm betting that option (b) is more likely.

Assuming that's the case, and that the developers still want to motivate that aforementioned technological interdependence, my proposed solution would be to offer an alternative, less calorie-efficient plant-oil-based lubricant recipe. If the recipe is inefficient, introducing it won't affect hardcore servers, whose players will obviously choose to avoid it. However, having this alternate route would mean a lot to me, and any other casual pacifist players out there.

Thank you for looking into this!

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20 days ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

I guess the simple but honest answer would be "c) they didn't have anything in regard to "pacifist" playthroughs in mind". That's ultimately what is the case, we never accounted for "pacifist" in that sense at all. It's the first time I have ever seen that someone actually does something like this, though I have heard about it before :)

We actually abstract nearly everything in Eco - the food system for example requires a simple "balance it out perfectly", which probably depending on which science paper you consider isn't very correct for one or the other reason. I do remember someone asking for the ability to get a perfect balance just with plants once, which was a interesting idea we still have tracked, but isn't really a focus or priority of the game. That some playstyles provide a specific challenge is also technically a interesting thing to have.

We also don't make any statements, in opposite to what some reviews about "fearmongering democrats" note, Eco has always been intended for people to reflect on whatever they do themselves, not us telling them what to do. We don't mind Eco being used to create whatever society system - it's kinda one point of the game to enable figuring out if something could work small-scale, even if that is your communistic dictatorship.

While we do not have any plans to establish a "stance" on or way for that, I'll see if we can get that specific issue resolved in some way. The base idea here was simply a decision between sustainable animal hunting or a cheap replacement causing mass pollution. In the end it's a game that has the necessity to make all professions a required thing, which includes hunting. Animals will always be a necessary thing to deal with in some way - the general idea being to provide multiple views: Upcoming Animal Husbandry is intended to show potential issues with especially mass production of them, but in turn there will also be a rework of animal simulation in general, making them actually consume real wild plants - and if there are none left, the player-planted ones. This will make population control in both directions much more interesting and important.

20 days ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by CitricBase

Thank you for your reply, and for not dismissing me out-of-hand. Devs who are open to feedback and communication like this are awesome.

P.S. at risk of killing the funny, perhaps I should clarify that the (a) and (b) contrast was only supposed to be a humorous rhetorical device emphasizing how welcoming the game otherwise is for pacifist players. I hope no one read that thinking SLG could earnestly have been taking such a political stance, apologies if it came across that way.

In text, especially on Reddit with it's somewhat "No Emojis" stance, it can be very hard to recognize any rhetorical devices that aren't conveyed through simple text. I didn't get it as what you intended it to be, but also not as malicious. :)

20 days ago - /u/SLG-Dennis - Direct link

Originally posted by magestik12

I don't know how you guys stay so calm amidst such insufferable people. Thanks for all that you do, SLG!

By not assuming malice with anyone, e.g. not considering someone that posted constructive and polite feedback (no matter if I or we personally agree or not) insufferable to begin with.