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So I will preface this by saying that while I do support the black out, I am not ignorant of the fact that alot of people either hate it or are struggling with it. I understand that alot of people are turning in their ratting carriers and buying hisec lvl 4 running rattlesnakes. The thing is that 3rd party apps, super umbrellas, high levels of safety, etc in nullsec have taken away a thing that made nullsec so wonderful to begin with, so here is how it use to be, and hopfully in this post you can see how much more reliant we were on each other, ei corp/alliance members to get stuff done in an era where there was no zkill, no evewho, no apps that link with local, etc. The way we played then would be pretty much immune to the blackout because we only relied on each other.

So back in the day, with no 3rd party apps and a ton of small corps/alliances that no one knew the MO of, when we would rat or mine, it was an organized thing. We would have people with alts watching gates on choke point. different pipes, etc. We would have a small defense fleet ready to do if something happened, but mostly we would be ratting/mining in a pocket as a corp and talking about hot pockets or how to fit a raven.

When we had to do logistics runs to hisec, we DID NOT have jump freighters or anything that could cyno. That meant people would load up t1 industrials, and if you were lucky enough to have a few freighter pilots in corp, you would load those up to, and you would form a pvp escort fleet. You would have people on alts in t1 frigs a few jumps out in different directions for intel. Once the fleet got to hisec, a portion of the fleet would continue to escort because concord was alot weaker then so you could not rely on them so much. In fact there were fits for tanking and fighting concord, there were a few but the popular one was either the apoc or the geddon, I can't remember since it has been so long, maybe someone in the comments can remind me. So as a corp we would go to Yulai (jita back then) or Jita once Jita became a thing, and sell our ore/ratting loot and buy stuff that people needed, then we would haul it back with the full escort fleet and eyes on gates everywhere. Bare in mind we had to do this with very few numbers, alliances back then had less members then most corporations these days so we would be doing this with all of maybe 20 or 25 people juggling alts and stuff in the beginning, though numbers did increase as eve aged.

Now weekends were the busy time for pvp, so we countered this by pvping ourselves, or if people needed isk they would go to hisec. Ratting on a saturday night doing US or EU prime time was seen as suicidal, and generally done by people who were bad, or people who were baiting. The bait drake meme originated around this time AFAIK because 1 the drake was legit for null ratting back then and 2 you would put a guy in a drake in each system in a pocket on a weekend during prime time and wait for someone to jump on you, then bam the calvary comes. After a while local people stopped roaming our pocket on weekends because they knew we were baiting, but still we would get people roaming in from other space and that was good times. Plus the drake pilots got to rat on weekends so those guys always had isk while the rest of us were alt tabbed waiting for a greenlight to undock and frag stuff. Come monday we would be back out in the ore belts and anoms talking about hot pockets and nerding out on how to fit a raven, making that isk to recoup a weekend of bait drake losses :)

Cynos and cloaky camping changed things a little sure, but with the amount of 24/7 cloaky camping that goes on, the black out should not effect this. Every system in eve with heavy ratting/mining has the afk cloaky camper in it, and you guys rat/mine anyway because "eh he will gank someone eventually, but he is probably not even home right now so lets just do it" So this is why it became even more crucial to not mine/rat during pvp prime times on weekends because you could get a cyno dropping a serious fleet on you. That being said we still relied on each other, we got to know the cloaky campers in the area and what kind of stuff they could drop on you and generally when they would do it, and we kept each other up to date on stuff because we were always in voice comms.

I could keep going reminiscing about eve circa 10+years ago but I hope you get my point. Back then we were always in voice comms, we always had eyes out, we were always dscanning, we kept track of fleet movement in the area when cynos became a thing so we would know how serious to take cloaky campers that night, etc. Overall the social factor of this game was at its strongest back then because relying on your corp bros was the only way to survive. Lone wolfing it with extra data did not exist, I mean even ratting/mining/population/etc data on the in game map didn't exist for a while so you had 0 idea what you were jumping into gate after gate, hence the need for good intel. These days no one is in voice comms, someone says "oh f*ck, died to a gatecamp in LXQ" within 30 mins like a dozen more people in your corp/alliance die to the same gate camp. That kind of sh*t did not happen back in the day because we were in comms.

TL:DR stay in comms, put alts out on gates, keep notice of fleet movement in the area, don't rat or mine on weekends, and you guys are going to be just fine. Going to hisec is pointless, most of you guys are going to hate it there, if you loved hisec you would have never left it in the first place to come to null, what makes you think your gonna like it this time around?

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over 5 years ago - /u/CCP_Falcon - Direct link

Originally posted by Lorenzo_Maulerant

Well evidently I cant stop any other super pilot dropping caps. Which is why im ok with them being removed or changed in that way its irrelevant to me anyway as I used to find all the subcap fun outside of delve/eso/tke not so much anymore, random goon dropping his toy makes no difference to that.

As for the local thing still no. They should make changes to the eula about third partys for chat log scraping for intel. Or make it so you cant log chats especially the intel. There should be no issue with people being able to see intel if they are there at the keyboard looking at the intel channel.

I'm super interested to hear how you'd approach the task of slapping caps and supers around to promote more small gang and subcap warfare.

What are your thoughts?

over 5 years ago - /u/CCP_Falcon - Direct link

Originally posted by gregfromsolutions

Iā€™m still waiting for CCP Falcon to be put in charge of capital balance. CCPlease

lol no :P

over 5 years ago - /u/CCP_Falcon - Direct link

Originally posted by Lorenzo_Maulerant

I'd be perfectly happy with you just deleting super capitals and reimbursing people the SP and a bit of isk and given your approach on the blackout I'm sure you guys aren't that averse to pissing off big chunks of the player base who are used to their toys but that's an extreme.

The more sensible approach is pretty much along the lines of what u/TwilightWinterEVE said below, the only changes I'd make there are Faxes straight up should not be able to rep sub caps at all, it's infuriating coming across a relatively equal force and having a good fight out of it and then suddenly cyno up fax hops in and they're invincible and the funs over.

HAW guns are awful for a similar reason, things which could turn out to be solid sub cap brawls basically end when the other group drop in a handful of HAW dreads to pick your subcaps apart and then drop a couple of active faxes that make it incredibly hard to break the other sides tanks no matter how smart you are playing without just warping off.

AOE Doomsdays are shit, I mean as someone who has definitely abused them, bosoning wormholes and gates, it's just a massive cock block to content, although a BFG can be used as a perfectly valid defense against a poorly placed dread bomb on a titan, so maybe on this front make it so that its based on sig so that it barely tickles subcaps and still works well on dreads, or make it so it simply doesn't work against subcaps.

I agree with Twilight on the Rorq should be an on-grid booster, it should keep panic though and it should also keep the rorqual alive so that subcap responses have time to actually respond this paired with some sort of change to caps should be more viable.

I don't particularly agree with the cutting EHP on the supercapitals either, if they are to be a thing in the first place and their only real application would be towards other capitals there's no need to make it any easier to delete them, as they still are expensive and are large investments to the individual pilot, it's not particularly fair or balanced if you make them easier to nuke with subcaps especially if they lose their ability to engage subcaps, I'd suggest rolling back on the insurance payout cut at least on dreads to encourage bigger dread bombs on stuff like titans and supers.

I still disagree on the keeping blackout part, it was as much a "tool" to trick people into forming or whatever as it was to be "perfect" intel and has gotten more people to turtle up than before meaning less diversity in targets and content than before. Fixing capital responses to subcap fleets balance should work to fix most of the issues people think the blackout is solving and also makes the krabber and the casual/semi-casual player feel like taking part which means more people to interact with the blackout definitely reads and feels like a buff to ganking with no intention of fighting.

I share a lot of your sentiments, but we're not going to outright just delete classes of ships from the game (as much as I'd probably like it personally haha).

(Interesting read though, thanks for the context :) )

over 5 years ago - /u/CCP_Falcon - Direct link

Originally posted by TwilightWinterEVE

Honestly I think caps need a complete rework.

Delete capital injectors or make them unusable in triage to make fax susceptible to cap warfare, reduce rep significantly, closer to old triage, and scale it based on sig so they're not great on anything smaller than battleships. Fax are the single biggest problem in capital and even sub capital fights. 1 fax can essentially make a 40 man gang irrelevant unless they're using Triglavian ships and this is imo why medium-scale roaming in anything bigger than Kikis is just dead.

Prevent supers from using any anti-subcap/space superiority fighters. Their role needs to be scoped better and I'd make them revolve around high anticap DPS (which will be more powerful without broken fax reps meaning you have to volley everything) and their burst projectors.

Delete HAWs. Dreads' role should be purely anti cap/anti structure, this scopes carriers back into the anti-subcap/anti-fighter role.

Remove the boson. The lance is more skill intensive and less oppressive to gangs especially with booshers and MJDs.

Next up, revert the Rorq to an on-grid booster and ore compressor. It can keep panic, but the panic only affects the subcaps around it and not the Rorqual itself. This means that super/Rorqual PvE isnt great and people have to use engageable ships for PvE, carriers and down because soups and titans apply like shit to rats now. Tweak bounties as appropriate to keep nullsec ratting rewarding.

Finally I'd cut the EHP on supers/titans by about 33% across the board.

Essentially this would mean the only caps which are useful against subcaps would be carriers and new post-nerf faxes, which are reasonably manageable even for smaller groups. It would also fit caps into the 1 up/1 down metagame.

Caps were previously balanced around being expensive and rare, but they arent either any more and they should be rebalanced to reflect their status as just another ship in the hangar.

Also, keep blackout.

Some reasonable suggestions in there for sure :)

The changes that you're talking about to the Rorqual are changes I've already pitched internally, including changes to the orca too, to turn it into a compressed hauler for logistics support that can't mine.

Personally, I'd just prefer the removal of the PANIC system.