[2023] Unkillable meta tank divisions/am I crazy or is mobile warfare way too good?

Boginga said: I think it kinda trivialises the game when infantry becomes useless against the super tanks no matter how much they're entrenched or how much AT they have. 1k breakthrough is 1k breakthrough, the only real counter is making your own tanks (which wont be nearly as effective without also using mobile warfare).

Do those tanks still have 1000 breakthrough under red air?

Related question: Do those tanks still have 1000 breakthrough after CAS has inflicted strength damage on them for two days in a row?

Bonus point question: If enemy air power has shredded trucks and trains, do those tanks have full supply or are they suffering from penalties lowering their stats? (Or are even just outright out of fuel)

If the answer is "no" or "they are suffering supply penalties" then tanks aren't over powered or unkillable. They are just unkillable if you only think in terms of rifles versus tanks.

I know clicking tanks is a big part of a lot of MP games, but I don't want anyone getting tunnel vision and thinking panzers are an I win button. They simply aren't. You need all the ducks in a row to make them unbeatable. If you are facing red air, or you can't afford the required replacement tanks, or you are fighting in the wrong terrain, or you are facing supply issues, or your country has run out of fuel, or the enemy can rotate defending pure INF faster than you can chew them up, then your vaunted tanks start to lose.

As a final consideration about unkillable tanks, answer this question:

If tanks are on a tile that receives a nuclear strike, are those panzer divisions still combat worthy?  

Corpse Fool said: The equivalent of a 4:1 in the Before Times would have been a 16/4. And as much as I know that there were people saying that MW org 'lets' you run something as heavy as a 17/3 and still have enough org to be usable... no one actually does this.

There have been times I would consistently run 16/4 with R/R in MW. And I was consistently told it was too tank heavy. But it also worked really well in some key situations. (I think at one point our MP group modded the game slightly specifically to make my old school 40w panzer formations less overpowered. )

17/3 was too rich even for my blood, but it also skewed stats in weird ways where the division had even more firepower, but it couldn't stay in the fight long enough to matter with the low ORG.  

Corpse Fool said: And how did it work the rest of the time?

It didn't matter in the other situations because the enemy lost for reasons unrelated to tank templates. Or there was that one time I really screwed up the invasion of France, but that was not a template issue, either.

Victories where tank templates were not the decisive factor:

1) The time I landed in Germany with 48 British panzer formations in 1943 using GBP. (This was pre-TfV.) There were simply not enough Axis forces in the west to repel firepower of that magnitude regardless of template design.

2) There was the Barbarossa where the Soviet player chose to defend eastern Poland with real forces (not just tiny divisions to force combat to chew up infrastructure and slow us down). The problem with the defense became apparent when I not only had green air, but I had hurt their speed so much compared to my speed that a few huge stacks of Soviet divisions were wiped by overruns. This was when our group started to reconsider how speed in the game was balanced. My templates didn't matter so much in that situation as most of the kills were due to the inability of the Soviets to retreat.

3) I really screwed the invasion of France up one time due to lack of air power and some terrible micro mistakes.

4) Guderian's multiple campaigns in Turkey before we banned Axis attacks on Turkey. Templates didn't matter in those cases. All that was required was enough speed to rush the straits before Allied forces could either close the straits with ships or block the straits with land forces. Because the AI was incompetent, all Guderian needed to get across the straits was 12 kph. Templates didn't matter, and with Turkey taken, the Middle East could be easily occupied and the Suez closed.

But these situations help prove my point. Even the most unkillable template or tank design has to work within the confines of other mechanics. And my tank heavy panzer formations in the old days were almost always useful because most of the time in the old days, I was winning the air war. So, the low HP on them wasn't as big of a problem as it was for players whose tanks might be taking more fire from ground attack.  

Boginga said: You are using an example where the country with tanks doesnt also have air power. I didnt mention air because in a situation where 2 countries of equal strength are fighting, the effectiveness of one side's CAS is dulled by the other side's fighters and vise versa.

But that's my point. You can claim "unkillable tanks" or "tanks with MW are OP" all day long, but what's really important is the air power and logistics. Winning the air war is more important than tanks in most MP games I've played. Admittedly, I'm out of date on a lot of MP stuff, but I expect that it hasn't changed much.

MathyM said: Can you give me some screenshots showing tank designs and division templates?

Sure. Let me give you some basic templates and designs. These get you started, but they are not meant to be the absolute meta. I want to give you some tanks that work better for a newer player and let you evolve over time once you get more familiar with the game.

Note that these designs will not include MIOs nor Guderian as they are country-specific bonuses.

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This template will transition to MECH as you build MECH, but I'm assuming you want a template you can work with in 39 and 40 as you build up your armored forces to 1941. For the record, it cannot be properly pierced by infantry divisions with support AT or line AT at 1941 tech levels:






So, what kinds of tanks am I using in that division?

I am using super-cheap regular tanks and fancy TDs.





And we are using armored recon, so here's the light tanks being used:



Now, fancier templates might use flame tanks and other stuff, but this basic template works along the following lines:

1) The AI has difficulty piercing it.
2) The vast majority of tanks required for panzer forces will only use steel. You are concentrating the expensive resources (tungsten and chromium) in a smaller number of tanks and production lines.
3) The expensive TDs raise the armor and penetration stats of the whole division without sacrificing soft attack via the heavy cannon.
4) You can downshift to 1 TD battalion if you are okay using 34 width and don't mind a small stat reduction.
5) The fuel drums give these tanks enough extra fuel on hand to let them drive deeper when in exploit phase.
6) Breakthrough values will seem lower than what some other players are talking about in this thread, but remember that when you give these divisions a good general and fire some tactics that this template allows, breakthrough will be significantly higher.
7) The cheap Panzer IVs are so inexpensive you can print them like paper. 80% of your panzer forces will be these cheap tanks, and you will feel just how useful it is to have cheaper tanks in the majority of your battalions as you move into 1941.
8) The division is fast enough to get overruns in a number of situations.
9) The support AA has enough air attack to get the full -75% penalty to enemy ground attack damage. You'll thank me later.

Note that if you playing a country with tons of domestic chromium, swap in welded armor modules for all tanks. If you are playing a country with tons of domestic tungsten, swap in howitzers on the Panzer IVs.

More advanced templates and designs will do some different things, but this will get you started.