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So...to...absolutely rock the boat, because, well, so many people seem to praise the new MG/CoF breakdown, here's my conundrum, from a Path of Exile perspective:

(EDIT: no, this is NOT a proposal for the full-on free trade that PoE has that burns people like me out. Far from it.)

Trade can be beneficial because it allows players to buy a rare, super-niche, super-hard-to-acquire, but very-low-in-aggregate-demand build-enabling/empowering item. For instance, the items in Path of Exile that I think embody and exemplify this better than anything else are the Circle of X rings (Nostalgia, Guilt, etc.).

They are:

1) Gated behind a super-rare semi-endgame dungeon instance (distant memory unique maps)

2) Don't always drop from the boss upon completing that instance

3) If they do drop, they have 15 different mod combinations or so (6 different qualitative mods, of which one of these rings rolls 2 at a time)

4) Even if you get the exact mods you need, their rolls may be low.

And just to add salt in the wound:

5) These rings have a whole slew of possible implicits, many of which are junk.

Long story short, even a particularly good ring, short of having some super-rare implicit mod (+1 max frenzy, onslaught on hit)...might only run the cost of about an hour's worth of efficient farming (if that). In contrast, if you try and SSF one of these things, you're going to be searching a long, Long, LONG time.

This is where trade shines. Super-niche build-enabling unique? Spend an hour farming some currency, instead of twenty hours trying to SSF it. Great.

Now, where does trade not work so well?

Well, as someone that's farmed up an omnishot build in PoE 3.17, along with part of a CoC FR build in 3.20 (the mageblood inclusive), and spent...not a single second playing either due to burnout, having everything be tradable, including items one can craft, sort of just boils everything down to "how much currency per hour can you farm", as opposed to, well, doing all of the host of novel activities that an ARPG can encompass.

Maybe you need fossils and resonators? Instead of delving, just keep farming Dunes. Want that awakener's orb? Instead of fighting Sirus, nah, keep farming Dunes. Want to buy imprint or split beasts? You guessed it, keep farming Dunes. Head, meet desk.

Now, here's my issue with the MG/CoF split:

What if my build needs just those two or three tier 3 uniques?

Well, looks like I'm out of luck, and I'm stuck playing trade mode, period. There's no world in which I can, after killing 30,000 monsters or something without ever performing another trade, just switch over to Circle of Fortune, because suddenly, I won't be able to use the couple of items that I traded for. Now, my progression is inevitably tied to leaning on trading to constantly fund more item acquisitions, such as exalted items, that drop significantly more rarely for MG members.

In contrast, say I was SSFing and found some excellent exalted bases that have no relevance to my build (say I'm playing some shadow-dashing blademaster, and found some legendary lich staff). Well, that item that might otherwise be highly valuable to me is just...whatever crafting materials I can break it down for. This feels really bad.

I wonder if there's a way for LE to be a bit more fluid with acknowledgement of the fact that some players' playstyles may amount to "trade a very few times, but otherwise prefer to play SSF", or that some players may prefer to be trade monsters for a while, but may want to decide that hey, maybe they made enough money for now and want to shoot for those top tier exalted bases to really mini-max their build.

The part where there should, obviously, be friction, is having to re-grind faction ranks. However, the fact that you have to completely abandon any and all equipment means that these factional choices are basically a hard lock, and in a very "all or nothing" sort of style. Need a couple of small build-arounds? Well, give up any hopes and dreams of playing CoF.

I feel like when it comes to at least switching from MG to CoF, that maybe a few small build-arounds should just have a monster-kill burn-in period ala Path of Exile's incubators before they lose their MG demands, such that a player that needs only a few low-demand niche uniques isn't forever tied to MG, and if they pay the time cost of respeccing to CoF, that they should have the opportunity to reap the CoF rewards, while still equipping their few build-arounds.

Does this make sense from a conceptual perspective?

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about 2 years ago - /u/ekimarcher - Direct link

Hi there and welcome to Epoch. First off, I think it sucks that you're getting downvoted for voicing an opinion. I kinda wish we just had upvotes sometimes because while people might not agree, this post has lots of good stuff.

Anyways, I've been talking to a lot of PoE players since the release of this post and it's been very interesting to me from a designer standpoint. While I'm not the person who came up with this idea, I was one of the main cooks in the kitchen for the refining process. I find it really interesting that most of the PoE launchpad posts use SSF and CoF almost interchangeably. I'd like to emphasize that we hope that CoF will be just as multiplayer friendly as MG. Yes solo players will be CoF but non solo players can be CoF too. I really think this is going to just hit the exact notes you're looking for. Finding those couple build enabling uniques is something CoF is going to be great at.

I know we didn't go into details on what all the rank rewards are going to be (10 total) and prophecies is probably a slightly tainted term for you coming from PoE. The overall goal is to have players be on a roughly similar pace between CoF and MG. I know that might sound insane but I think we've built in enough dials that we can get there.

Even now, we put a pretty heavy emphasis on being able to get build enabling mechanics relative quickly. Some are harder than others but even when it's a chase unique, we try to build in a "baby brother" version to get the ball rolling. So you have a stepping stone to get your build online and then take it to the next level when you find the chase unique.

And yes, the sheer volume of people playing on MG will make it so that certain mega rare items are almost exclusively available in MG but those will all be just better stat versions of the same items. You're also competing with everyone to be the one to buy it so I think the average chance to get any item in CoF will be at least in the same ballpark as MG.

It's going to take a lot of balancing to get things just right and I hope we can get it lined up relatively quickly. We will have to wait and see though as so much of this is hypothetical still.

about 2 years ago - /u/ekimarcher - Direct link

Originally posted by Ilyak1986

Thanks for that.

I've been watching the development of the game with great interest, if for the basic reason that I believe a healthy competitive scene lifts everyone's game, so I don't have the specific experience in Last Epoch (yet...), but with my experience in Diablo 2 and PoE, sometimes, if you felt your build needed "this specific item", well, GL HF trying to get it.

If this is vastly different in Last Epoch, and one can hunt down a unique methodologically, then that is a complete game-changer among ARPGs.

As for "prophecies" being a tainted term, hah--I play the Eternal Card Game (which has an expedition mode--aka the equivalent of Magic the Gathering's standard), Legends of Runeterra (which had an expedition mode, which was an ill-fated limited draft-like mode), and Path of Exile, in which expedition is one of my favorite endgame activities. So I'm sure that expeditions in Last Epoch have their own flavor =).

If the fears of "if I don't play trade, I won't be able to get this build enabling unique" are entirely unfounded, then that's amazing. But I do wonder what the consequences may be going forward as more and more items get introduced to the game, and how the game will hopefully be able to keep its promise of each and every one of those being "target farmable" in some capacity.

I suppose for now, my fear is colored by the existence of items like Circle of Nostalgia in Path of Exile. But if it's inapplicable in Last Epoch, then that's fantastic news.

While the definition of build enabling can be a little blurry, we do strive to maintain accessibility to those unique for players who don't have a massive daily playtime available to them. With the legendary system, there is a lot of room between the base and max versions of the uniques in the game so you will probably find yourself hunting a better one even if you've found a basic version. This lets us keep the base versions generally pretty accessible too.

But, I'm sure someone will come up with a bonkers build that requires an item we never intended and we will need to do something about that. Lots of options there, from making a new starter version to changing the drop chance to adjusting interactions to make it work other ways too and more.

I am confident that we can maintain this methodology but only time will tell.