Originally posted by Huzzl3

Just wondering, why is shen getting buffed? According to their framework, a champion has to be below 49% winrate in the "Skilled" bracket to be considered underpowered.
https://na.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/dev/dev-balance-framework-update/

But he sits at 51%+ already?

Originally posted by WarriorMadness

Tank Fiddlesticks W Minion healing: 25 >>> 15%

Honest question, will this actually be enough to address Tank Fid?

While it will make his laning harder I don't see how it affects the aftermath, it seems like building tank will still work since they didn't hit his base damages or % health damage, just that he will have to play safer in lane to get through.

Originally posted by TrololoIo

You could remove his W CD reduction vs minions, right now if you can't cc him he will always get it. W reset should be if a champion fked up and didn't leave, not a guarantee.

Originally posted by BloodTrinity

Thoughts on doing that for Nunu Q? Mid nunu is a very degenerate playstyle at the moment that is very difficult to poke out or kill due to minion Q healing. My other thought was lower W snowball's damage to minions.

Originally posted by lolleaves

I know this is mostly unrelated, but with what you said in mind, do you think it would be possible to give Evelynn the same treatment? Right now her Q's cooldown is reduced on everything except minions, and changing that could be enough to allow her to off-meta lane.

Originally posted by GoodHeartless02

Just gonna shoot a random question since we’re on strange champs going mid, nocturne has been more meta mid and I think you guys recognized that a few patches ago with a buff to his jungle, any other changes coming to him or is he just better played mid now?

Originally posted by Anni01

on the theme of junglers going mid/top, what is you guys position on nunu mid right now? because i am playing and loving it but am afraid of the nerf hammer

Originally posted by _rothion

Old Evelynn could lane before EVEN after the nerfs due Mid Evelynn being a menace (E shifting to Physical Damage, DFG being removed) - and it was a nice off-meta role to play with.

Since she does have clear weakness that can be abused (making her lane still be a less-optimal pick than Jungle), adjusting Q cooldown on minions would also benefit the situations where she could help the team but can't - like holding a lane for a few seconds or clearing super minion waves.

As an old Evelynn player that played her on a lane a lot, that change would really make me happy.

Originally posted by Ryuumoku

What prevent Graves to be nerfed after months of OPness ?

Originally posted by Huzzl3

Makes sense, I just figure he'd quickly cross the OP thresholds and require nerfs again, but maybe I'm overestimating the impact

Originally posted by fr0z3nph03n1x

Sticky this thread. In a few weeks we are going to be reading another one of these:

Guardian is overperforming after its recent buffs to consistency. Bringing the base shield value down back to before it was buffed.

or

Our snaky lady didn't lose quite as much as we'd have liked last patch, so we're walking (slithering?) back some changes.

Originally posted by bz6

Does that mean yall are still data informed? Because that’s what makes a healthy game imo

Originally posted by TrololoIo

Could you add to his ult the neeko ui but it would show instead the ally % hp?

Originally posted by Nightwing_Starfire

So basically you do what you want

All these fancy frameworks are just for show

Originally posted by bz6

Right. I’m kind of disappointed. As I remember Riot has always had the stance of being data informed rather than driven. It yields a more ‘elegant’ approach to design / balance.

I get LoL is old and has developed clear boundaries that define what is broken or not but in return this is going to make the game just feel more rigid don’t you think? No flare, no creativity, no surprises.

Originally posted by WordsAndRhetoric

While logical, does this not sound like you are forcing a meta? You're litterally trying to choose champions to place into viable champion pools.

Originally posted by BlessedIsYe

Just like you include the pick rate for nerfing, it should also be used as a buff metric. Right now, you determine buffs in iron-diamond III based on win rate exclusively (<49.5%). However, Dr. Mundo has 1.28% pick rate in SoloQ with 49.5% win rate, so he doesn't meet the criteria for getting buffed. This is so wrong because not only is he picked <7.5% in diamond II-pro, he's had ~0% pick rate in this elo range, meaning that he's far and beyond unviable (useless) in the highest levels of play.

In other words, if he had higher pick rate, he'd most definitely have lower win rate (much lower than 49%), which means that he is deserving of buffs (QoL changes). Therefore you need to include pick rate in amateur play too, for example, if a champion has <2% pick rate.

Not including iron-diamond III pick rate as a buff metric is ridiculous, champs can maintain 50% win rate with 0.01% pick rate, that doesn't mean they are perfectly fine.

TL;DR: Pick rate, even in average and skilled levels of play (iron-diamond III) is tied to the viability of a champion far more than Riot thinks i.e. win rate is not the only relevant metric here.

Originally posted by TrololoIo

Yes, but the idea is to make it easier, center of the screen its much more natural then the corner over the minimap or side of the screen (which is even worse) and would make it easier to simply click on the ally portrait you want to ult, making it easier for the average shen, thus becoming the in between before the current preferred method of pro shen players to regularly cycle between allies using the "center to x ally" buttons to be prepared to ult where you know there will be a fight.
My full idea would be for it to show their circle portrait in a blinking red when they lost a big chunk of hp very fast (like 40%). The UI would only appear when ult is up and not taking dmg in a while.
I do realize the more differences from the original it has, the more time and effort it would take to add those technologies and the less likely is to be made cause of the cost opportunity, but I thought to give it a try.

Originally posted by Xyltin

I hope so. Else the game and balancing overall would become boring.

But why do you try to force Shen and Cait into the competitive meta? Cait is pretty boring to watch and we all know how unfun it is when she is so supressive early on. Why not targets Caits weaker mid game phase? And like 90% of ADCs are more interesting than Cait without having her problems. Even Twitch would be a better target for buffs if you want to shake up the meta.

And for Shen even a 60-120 HP shield would likely get him into competitive.

I have nothing against making champs strong for some time, as long as it doesn't make them OP immediatly. Cait will likely break the framework with these buffs. Shen also possible.

And why is Karthus not on the nerf list yet in Dia2+ he has a 55+% WR and 25+% BR with a decent sample size?

Are you giving him 2 more weeks to be OP before cutting him? I can see why sometimes nerfs due to the framework are delayed as it makes sense for champs on the edges to wait and stabalize, but he isn't even close to the edge.

On the oher hand Lee and Thresh will not even care about their nerfs. Ornns -3 Armor at least has a decent impact.

Originally posted by bz6

so you dont think these bounds hinder the creativity when it comes to actual balance levers? it wont pigeon hold you to making changes that will shift the %'s into the desired range of the framework?

Originally posted by bz6

Damn, this was the thing I was at afraid of tbh. You’re right it keeps shit in check but don’t you feel the loss of this “qualitative feel” is something important? It breathes soul into the game rather than it just being so mechanical.

And we’ve kind of seen the effects of that. Patches are light af with few meta shifting changes. Yes, I remember in season 8 yall failed with a new patch cadence and went from one extreme (of meaningful changes mid season) to the other (dump all changes to pre-season).

Originally posted by fr0z3nph03n1x

 The buff to Shen in 10.15 made him a bit stronger than expected, so we’re pulling back slightly. 

Nah, we all expected it. I get trying to mix up the meta but at least be honest with the messaging.

Originally posted by fr0z3nph03n1x

Sticky this thread. In a few weeks we are going to be reading another one of these:

I posted this as the original comment. I knew we would be back here, I was just waiting for it. I appreciate your response on this old thread. It's interesting to get your insight that the decision to revert was complaint based as well as data based.