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[2021] Riot need to decide whether true damage is affected by damage modifiers or not.


Original Post — Direct link

Before this season, true damage was completely unaffected by any damage modifiers. This included amps like Press The Attack and Coup De Grace, and also any damage reduction like Warwick E, Master Yi W and obviously armour/magic resist. The logic being that true damage is exactly what it says it is and no more or less. In my opinion, this is what true damage should be like. (Ahri's E is an exception to this rule since it's a specific interaction contained within the champion and only affects her Q's true damage.)

Come this season, this is no longer true. New items with damage amplifiers (Prowler's, Abyssal Helm, Riftmaker) all increase true damage and have done so since they were introduced. If this was just a change in how true damage worked, it would be fine, but none of the previously mentioned modifiers were changed. This means that runes, among others, simply don't function the same way as items.

Compare the description of Coup De Grace with Prowler's Claw and you'll see them both say "Deal x% increased damage" yet one affects more damage types than the other. Prowler's Claw in particular is an interesting case, as its active can be used on minions and monsters. Yes, this means it can amplify smite damage on monsters.

These differences shouldn't exist when they appear to have the same effect. The descriptions should either be updated to include/exclude true damage, or the effects themselves should be standardised as before.

Personally, I think we should go back to how true damage worked before. True damage as a concept doesn't work once it starts being influenced by external modifiers. The whole point of true damage in the first place is that it ignores these modifiers.

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over 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by kaazmodan

Yup depends on the champion. Some movements are cancelled (like Cait E) some movements will finish (like Graves E) some movement abilities that weren't yet moving will still "go off" (like Tristana W and Urgot E) which is buffering. But if you catch a Tristana in the middle of her W it cancels like Cait E.

I believe these are the 3 movement situations. Now to decipher which champion has which type of movement ability for 100 champions :) GL new players.

To be fair, Caitlyn E is like the only ability in the game that does this.

Though they did add Yasuo into the game and his E does this, too (he feels new to me, I know he's not).

Otherwise, League has a pretty much fundamental rule that once a spell has been started it will complete unless you're dead or the target's gone. Dashes and blinks are extremely consistent on this front. (Caitlyn is intended sort of but should change, Yasuo is also intended and is more reasonable)

over 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by TipiTapi

..and then you get to dashes that stop dashes (Vault, body slam, flag and drag, vault breaker, wall dive) and it gets stupid. You can consistently stop a few of these, you can consistently NOT stop a few and there are some where it just seems... random?

"Dashes that stop dashes" is just a fancy name for "abilities that knock-back." Anything that forces movement overwrites other movement. But again, the prior rule about completing casts.

over 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by FruitfulRogue

Im just curious what it is about Yasuo that makes his case more reasonable?

And why "should" Caitlyns change but yasuos shouldn't? It feels awful pick and choose. Bias even.

Yasuo has a FAR higher access to mobility then Caitlyn yet he should get the exception and she no longer should? Tbh I think neither should change.

Both Yasuo's Q and E are meant to function like non-abilities. Yasuo Q is mean to function like an attack: Cooldown and cast time scale with attack speed. It scales with AD and crit and applies on-hit effects like all basic attacks do.

Yasuo E is meant to be special by design. It's a nearly-zero cooldown dash so it also has its special drawbacks: It always goes a specific distance and unlike other dashes it self-stops on any root or stun.

By contrast, Caitlyn E is just an ability. The designer meant to allow Caitlyn to cast it while rooted, unlike other dashes. But of course to be fair, made the ability only throw out the net in that case. But it meant she can't do the stun/root buffer unlike every other dash in the game. There's some intent there as well, but it's more like the buffer loss is a casualty as opposed to an intended weakness.

over 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by buwlerman

And what happens when a dash that knock-backs, stuns or knock-ups, meets another? Does the Poppy or the Camille get CC'd? Both?

Last time I checked this was very inconsistent.

There's also the weird interaction with Jarvan being able to use E-Q to dash while rooted, while champions with unstoppable abilities (Malphite, Vi) are not.

There are lots of these kinds of small inconsistencies in the game, and they add up in a way that makes the game harder to learn than it has to be. It's good that champions are unique, but sometimes it adds little to the character, and even when it does it should still be communicated clearly.

FWIW it's consistent: Abilities have hitboxes. Better hitbox wins. It's like fighting games: Something usually wins. Some things draw. But if you know an interaction once you know it every time.

Jarvan is quite special since his Q is just a normal ability. I replied to someone else about Caitlyn and how her dash is uniquely coded to not move if she's CCd when it's finished casting. Jarvan just isn't locked out of his Q while grounded/rooted, which certainly makes sense, but also makes him uniquely able to late-cast and get out. Definitely an exception, but EQ is an exceptional pair of abilities.

over 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by LittleBadWitch

Dashes and blinks are extremely consistent on this front.

They're anything but consistent in how they interact. Here is a list of dashes (as described in the ability) that are stopped by roots & snares:

To reinforce the point of why they're inconsistent, you're Phreak, a literal living legend of League knowledge, and you didn't remember or know off-hand 10 out of 12 exceptions to the rule. Like Sneaky in the Galio example, the system is inconsistent in how CC interacts with Mobility and subverting player expectations who haven't already learned their lesson to readjust their expectations of how League CC works vs other game CC.

There are 84 champions with dashes; 12 of them have dashes that are interruptible with roots. Around 15%~; that's just terribly inconsistent.

Again, you're a legend. It's not a 'gotcha'; it's a flaw in consistency of higher design elements that makes it impossible for even the best of us to know these things.

FWIW Aurelion Sol and Taliyah are simple "they fall off in combat" and the root/stun interaction is superfluous.

Still though, valid point. I didn't know Akali/Camille/Rakan/Ziggs broke their dashes.

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