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Mage Attack Speed: For a while now, mages have been taking Attack Speed rune shard. While this is great that players love pushing/harassing, it is more indicative of mages' slow attack frames that have become pretty outdated over time and are an unnecessary barrier of entry to their satisfaction.

We're going to be setting these Attack Speed values to what feels right first, such that the mages don't feel required to take the shard and then address any balance fallout after.

We need to be careful about buffing ranged too much in the early game, especially against melee (and especially if they play top). If it ends up being quite a lot of power, we'll put back in that area.

There are some mages whose attack frames are intentionally slow; eg. Karthus, Cassio because they have an auto attack replacement and we want them to use that, so we're not adjusting them as much.

Janna: Janna's play experience has gotten less and less satisfying over time. We think a previous version of Janna that was more W oriented, with higher attack range and some more speed was more satisfying for her players. So we're reverting some of the recent changes and moving her back in that direction.

Jungle Changes: No actual jungle changes this patch, but changes to champions within the jungle. Post AD ratio reversion to the jungle item, the balance of the role feels like in a good spot, as does its power level.

Mundo, Rammus, Seraphine, Tahm: We swung a bit too far on these champions, especially Seraphine for solo lane. We're going to be reverting some of the changes for these champions (in Seraphine's case, potentially doing something else)

Balance Outliers: The rest of the champions in this list either benefited directly from 13.20 (and follow up changes) from scaling (Senna, Kassadin, Nilah) or are just strong on the patch and need to be tapped down some.

Brand: Brand changes are aimed at adding power to mid and jungle, but not adding any more to the support. Brand doesn't need to be much stronger in support, so the changes are targeted at mid/jg.

https://preview.redd.it/ys9ig7a9xfxb1.png?width=496&format=png&auto=webp&s=489b7234d5e904e0934257a837d7b8ba8c951406

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about 1 year ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by sparkaura

Not sure what they can even do to Sera without a full mid scope rework on her kit. Everything you touch on support inadvertently buffs APC and now her solo lane. She's just not meant to be played as this enchanter support that they want her to be/most of her player base seems to play her as.

Eh, I probably did too many things at once that weren't strictly going to achieve goals. For example, lower health growth makes sense systemically for enchanters (their items give HP, armor is synergistic with shields), but actively works against Mid/Bot skew (though it does help with Bot/Support). More shielding helps support but also helps bot, since you get nearly double value in both cases.

To be fair though, part of this observed win rate disparity is people building "wrong." For example, W max Seraphine Support is actually her strongest build now with a 1% win rate gain over Q max. It gained some popularity last patch, but we'd see a 1% win rate rise if the rest of the population moves over. On that vein, a significant portion of Mid Seraphine players max E 2nd, more than Bot Seraphine does, and is very incorrect even after the buffs. So because W max 2nd is still stronger than E max 2nd, any role that "obviously" wants to max W outperforms, which is bot moreso than mid.

There are other weird oddities, too. Mid Seraphine tends to run Scorch, Biscuits, and Cosmic Insight whereas Bot tends to run Gathering Storm, Presence of Mind, and Coup de Grace, all of which are stronger on Mid Seraphine as well. Shoutout to Cut Down now that Seraphine has low base health, but players aren't picking up on it. Support Seraphine could also do with swapping from Scorch (84% pick rate) to Gathering Storm. And from Inspiration to Resolve for Font of Life and Revitalize. In all cases, Haste is her best Stat Shard, but only Bot Seraphine runs it more than half the time. So some of the current win rate differences are purely a build optimization problem. It doesn't explain the relative win rate gains of the patch, though.

What's interesting (and encouraging) is all of her basic outputs went the direction we wanted. It's also encouraging that her play rate has measurably increased in all three roles while her ban rate hasn't moved. Compared to patch 13.20:

Stat Bot Mid Sup
Physical damage 100.5% 100.9% 101.1%
Magic damage 101.4% 103.7% 102.1%
Healing 74% 76% 81%
Gold 100.9% 101.8% 100.1%
Minion kills 101.8% 103% 101.8%

All of those indicate that we nerfed bot lane the most (healing) and buffed mid/support the most (damage, farming). A decent rule of thumb is 2% more damage is roughly 1% win rate, so the fact that this would indicate a 1% win rate skew just from damage stats is meaningful.

Significant changes to her late-game stats via health growth and mana regen growth likely undid some of the mid/bot gains got from reshaping her abilities.

From here there are two paths: Continue on the line of ability changes (level scaling, a shift toward abilities better used by mid/support) or undoing some of the base stat changes that were done for consistency and self-synergy. It's worth noting that XP per minute is pretty linear between mid/bot/sup, which means anything relatively gained mid will be lost in support. This secondary path would be basically hard sacrificing one of her roles just to get bot in line.

Overall, if Seraphine winds up at ~51% in mid/sup (she's currently 51%/49%, both of which have a lot of room for optimization) and 53% in bot (where she was last patch), I'm happy.

about 1 year ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Due-Refuse-3141

One question, how much do you think buffing q/e speed helps supp/mid over apc? Ofc since as an apc you have someone to help with slow skillshots in lane, maybe buffing q/e speeds is a decent way to do so, specially for supp, who is never meant to be hitting the stationary wave, it would also drastically help with the feel of those abilities, specially mid against highly mobile targets. The other thing would be if shifting her damage to be burstier and less dps would help, as the usual apc are mages with high dps like swain, karthus etc while burst mages are usually mid/supports like lux/neeko etc

I don't think E missile speed should be faster.

I'd expect Q speed and base MS to be mid/support skewed. The question is what players would be willing to give up. Not sure a longer Q cooldown would feel good, since that also means fewer passive cycles.

about 1 year ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by PastaFreak26

What about moving the power away from E, and into Q. Saying hi from Malaysia. Also would like Seraphine to be balanced to a point where running Ionian, Tear > Seraph's, Aery isn't a core build on her. Would love to go Sorc Shoes and standard large AP items.

Well the more damage E deals, the better she is with magic pen instead of simply haste for CC/shielding.

Ideally, Seraphine has the option to go Q+E and it's comparable in power to Q+W.

about 1 year ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by No-Umpire2703

I really appreciate the time and depth of this comment :)
I guess I'd like to say though that as an OTP who builds AP in all three of her roles it has been a hell of a last few weeks and kinda sucks to see my champ get tugged in every which way.... hope any balance concerns can be resolved soon so I can go back to mindlessly queueing up with my fave

I'd love to ask about the decision to, seemingly, focus her support role into an "enchanter-centric" support role. When I look at the overall seraphine support stats, I see that in higher elos she is mostly built enchanter, but is mostly built AP in lower elos (iron, silver, and i think gold as well). Given the majority of her overall play in support is done as an AP mage botlaner not a support, where does the decision to adjust her stat-line to be enchanter-esque come from? Is this a similar statline to mages like Lux, Zyra, Morgana who have found a home in support? Or is the higher-elo community's way of playing seraphine support being prioritized over the way lower-elo support seraphine players want to play her?

I know that is a number of questions packaged as one, but it would be great to hear your insight about those decisions. Thanks!

I think of her as more of a Lux/Karma/Morgana. Lux has a mid laner's stats. Morgana/Karma have those of an enchanter (albeit tankier since they're shorter range). Some mage outputs, some enchanter ones. Seraphine is far closer to those champions than Zyra or Brand. Sona and Janna have a somewhat similar shape, too.

Making her a better enchanter was an easy way to buff her in ways that were really support-skewed. She's always going to be around a teammate so more Ws is going to do more for support than mid/bot. She's generally going to earn less gold here, thus her gold scaling isn't as important. I noticed that a decent portion of Seraphine players maxed W and a large portion of them went Echoes despite it being pretty poor. Now Echoes is comparable to Liandry's and that's good.

I think a decent portion of low MMR players don't really think critically about their builds. One of our UX designers on SRT is a bronze Seraphine main and she used to max E 2nd earlier this year. It used to be correct. It just isn't any more. Logically "Oh, better crowd control spell" can make sense if you don't compare each ability. When initially playtesting the 13.21 changes, I asked her to try W max first and she had a really good time with it. Sometimes players just need some guidance. Unless a guide comes out, recommended builds update, or we manually set them, it will simply take a long time for lower-MMR players to adapt to game changes. Let's not forget how long it took Zeri players to get off of Trinity Force.

As another point of reference, E max 1st was more common than W max 1st for Seraphine for silver players last patch. It still is this patch, too. I'm generally in favor of not allowing players to fall into those traps if I can help it. And that means if an ability feels logical to put points into, it should probably do that thing better. Either way, that's a nontrivial part of what's depressing her win rate in support.

about 1 year ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by fishwasherr

Why doesn't W have any ap scaling at all on the heal? Why not just make it really small instead? It feels awkward that this is the only heal in the game that doesn't directly scale off of anything...

It scales off of your allies' missing health, the number of nearby allies, ability haste, and Heal/Shield Power.