[2022] Sivir Mid-Scope Update Coming to the PBE

Originally posted by Meerkat47

Is the AD reduction on W from 90% to 30% not ridiculously harsh? Love the detection of the changes but genuinely concerned that this will completely kill her late game damage, especially considering her early game damage is also decreasing significantly.

Originally posted by Ephemeral_Being

In playtests, how does she not go OoM? Is she bound to PoM+Manaflow? Do you envision her building Tear? Tear+ER? Doran's Ring, Tear, ER?

Have you considered making the W bounces apply on-hits? Or, at least, proc spell effects? It's hilarious to me that a level two Sivir with a Jungle item just dies killing Raptors. Not that Jungle Sivir is on your radar, but it's one of only a handful of abilities that don't activate Tooth and Nail when it hits enemies.

Originally posted by moody_P

as a casual sivir enjoyer I'm a bit worried about the heavy nerfs to utility in favor of damage; I feel like her ability to quickly rotate and disengage with R was a large part of her value over other AOE hypercarries and reducing that means she's going to overlap more with Jinx and Twitch, who still have less utility but more than make up for that with the range Sivir lacks. Wont this mean she'll be more easily replaced by other picks when/if it's not a good meta for her, or if her numbers are just worse at the time?

Originally posted by S890127

Can you explain why you guys think the E mana refund was a bad design? Not mad or anything just curious.

Originally posted by williamis3

What was the overall goal for this Sivir update?

It seems like her early game is going to be quite a power down for a mid-late game increase.

Originally posted by MxrtxnWxndlxr

Hi 👋🏼

Sivir is one of my favorite champs because of her satisfying AoE and I think the changes look pretty cool!

I'm worried how she'll feel early game though... I understand that she'll probably be even more of a teamfight monster with these new changes but the mana nerfs and bAD reductions on spells make me fear that she'll feel pretty awful to play until like 2 items at the earliest whereas right now she's pretty enjoyable as soon as you pick up a few components.

Not asking for buffs or anything like that, I guess I would just like to know if you guys are planning on balancing her around having a bad laning phase to offset her strong mid-late or is the goal for her not to feel much different early game and you still might shift some power around depending on how the testing goes?

Originally posted by Meerkat47

This makes sense in a vaccume, but you have to to take into account that a 500 range adc often finds it very hard to auto attack more than 3 times. It’s very rare to see a crit Sivir free hitting the enemy team the same way you’d see a Jinx do the same. I’ll trust you guys on this one though, and I’m looking forward to the changes!

Originally posted by CriskCross

the spell effects part is spooky for things like Aery, comet, and scorch in lane.

Because it increases her damage too much or because it allows her to land damage too easily? W the wave and if it bounces to an enemy and deals an extra 65 damage?

Also, sorry if I missed it but if she's too strong, what would do you think you'd hit?

Originally posted by cancerBronzeV

Probably because they want to make first half of Q more reliable, but not the second half.

Originally posted by Spideraxe30

What is the dark sivir tech from playtests, have kraken + lethal felt better or are there better crit builds

Originally posted by BacePilot

With the base damage and AD scaling decreases on Q and W, isn't her laning going to be atrocious?

Originally posted by DanteStorme

How do you feel about infinite / refreshing ults because it seems to be happening with a lot of these updates and new releases zeri/Olaf/ahri and now sivir, is there an intention to make it so that team fights definitely result in one team running down the other team after getting one or two picks? They all seem to add mobility too.

Originally posted by trapsinplace

It seems you're trying to turn her into a scaling AOE/utility marksman, am I right in thinking that?

I can't help but feel that the current numbers will leave her on the weak side. She won't scale as well as Tristana (who even has some very good early game matchups to scale faster) or Jinx (who is quite safe while farming) for starters. Sivir now scales but has sacrificed any hope of winning any matchups in lane. A scaling champion who gets bullied is going to have a rough time. She also lacks the range of either of those champions so is far less safe throughout the entire game including when she's scaled up with items.

Sivir in general may run into issues with the identity you're pushing. On one hand her kit wants you to get into fights and kite (500 range, W bounce, E to block critical spells, R movespeed) but on the other hand she is going to be jumped on by people and get blown up. It feels like she may fall into the situation where she's rarely picked because a blind pick or the wrong comp is too dangerous for her. Or perhaps she will be very good in pro play for her utility and scaling damage, but I solo queue she's a sitting duck.

Have any of these thoughts crossed your mind during design or was it more about getting this out now then working on the details later and tweaking as needed? I'm really worried that she won't have a place in the game unless her numbers back up this new high risk high reward play style.

Originally posted by LagOutLoud

I'll withhold judgement till it goes live, But this seems incredibly impractical. Live Sivir might only get the 3 bounces per cast, but at 13 that CD is short. And Sivir being a short range ADC this allowed her to get into auto range, blow 3 fast autos and get back to safety if needed. No 500 range ADC is going to be able to just stand in range and auto the whole time to get those bounces. This update will be very powerful in silver and below and awful above that where teams will spread away from bounces more effectively. Mana cost and no refund on E will make her mana issues worse, not better even with the cost reduction of Q. As a Sivir main I could not be more disappointed by what I read in this update.

Originally posted by curse-of-royal

Hi RayYongii, I’m excited to see one of my favorite champs getting modernized. In specific, I’m happy to see Sivir getting pushed back in the direction of crit builds. My question: Is Sivir’s identity as the marksman that pushes the fastest something that is trying to be maintained through this update? Personally what initially drew me to the champ was the ability to outpush the opposing laners to siege down a tower and I always saw the mana refund as an important part of that.

Originally posted by ConfrontationalJerk

Was the new Sivir W code difficult or did you guys manage to reuse like old Ryze and Brand code maybe? Also curious why you guys want to reuse the Kog'Maw W power paradigm with Sivir even though the former rarely gets picked partially because of him being so reliant on his W cd.

Originally posted by go4ino

the changes are super sick im hella happy

more of general questions but

• what was the main motivation behind tweaking spellshield to restore health and not mana? im curious how it will play out in team fights
• is sivir still tied to essence reaver mana wise? ik a lot of ppl had gripes abt new ER on her

Originally posted by greatestbird

Is the auto reset kept on her w? I love that e procs passive. That’s going to be sick

Originally posted by NSawsome

500 range is often not enough to get in range for all 3 aas even on live, which is why she’s building lethality no? Just like how Xayah built lethality cus no range to aa and set up e, and how jinx was able to take over the meta with 725 aa range. This feels like it misses why these champs are being pushed towards lethality by forcing them into Crit with ratios and Crit scalings

Originally posted by cadaada

Do we really need even more healing?

Originally posted by Jiaozy

Will the W finally become an auto-attack or will it remain this weird counter intuitive thing, as it currently is?

Originally posted by StrwbryAcaiPanda

Would you guys consider removing the heal on her e and instead either remove the mana cost or lower the cooldown? I don't mind the mana restore being removed, but the heal seems unnecessary, especially when BT/enchanters/heal exists. I feel the power would be much better spent elsewhere

Originally posted by FarmNcharm

Hello, is there a reason that you guys added an AP scaling to her heal? Or is it for just shits and giggles.

Originally posted by Ckrest

Slightly off topic from just Sivir but applies to her and other attack speed steroids abilities. Have you considered having the duration start on auto attack instead of button press?

I find often on Xayah that I hit w to get the move speed from hitting the enemy and feathers but if they go out of range, or I cast it from too far away I lose a large potion of my auto damage without even getting a single hit off.

It just feels weird to that the correct play is to make sure to get closer than my max auto range so you can use the attack speed and immediately start attacking with it instead of just right clicking on someone when approaching.

Originally posted by StrwbryAcaiPanda

I think that's fine when you look at the ADC roster overall, but please realize that some people just want to play Sivir because she's Sivir. Won't know how I feel 100% until I get to test the changes, but it'll be very disappointing if she is literally unplayable in games with multiple ranged champions.

Originally posted by CerbereNot

I mean one rotation of spells early game and she now loses half her mana, you want her heal to save her lane but it really feels like mana will just gate her even more and make her even worse vs matchups that outrange her, her base stats are terrible

Originally posted by NSawsome

Ok so with kraken er ie and zerkers and her w maxed that’s 120% bonus attack speed, at level 13 thats also 26% as from growth so 146% as, with a ratio of .625 thats 1.536 as, meaning the expected value of w is approximately 6 aas which as mentioned above in optimal conditions is potentially better than current w, however before this it’s just worse 95% of the time no? This because her being bound to er gimps her as until significantly later in the game

Originally posted by photographyraptr

But I feel like you aren't really tackling that being difficult to auto is the reason she's not being played at all outside of poke lethality and even then she's just a worse varus at that. Sure it can be rewarding, but why take the risk when there are longer range champions that can still output damage without the risk of being such short range? I like the idea of the new W direction but my worry is that it just won't feel like she'll stand out over other teamfight adcs cause of how hard the short range will be to navigate vs. others.

Originally posted by NSawsome

Landing q max range guarantees both hits and this makes that more reliable, and the second hit is less likely when someone’s on top of you emphasizing the range of the ability as it’s strong point

Originally posted by NSawsome

I think the heal will be really nice for this reason but like how does this champ not become hard bound to PoM ER and maybe even manaflow? Her q is still rly expensive and she needs to use it to dps and waveclear especially with a weaker w on 2 items. has her waveclear felt any different in testing in early to mid game essentially as that’s often what I feel gates my mana on Sivir

Originally posted by Jiaozy

But how come something like Katarina ult can proc on-hit, stack conqueror and all that when it looks like anything but auto attacks, while Sivir's W is literally her auto-attacking will smaller boomerangs but doesn't?

Originally posted by k4AcaoSVC8vQZSO8FMbn

Specifically aiming to NOT make her a broad, pick-every-game champion.

When should she be picked, in your view? The ult doesn't justify picking her any more, as I think I've seen you mention. I feel like if you're picking her because the enemy is short range you could just pick any long range hyperscaler and be safer while dealing nearly as much damage (or more, due to the safety allowing you to AA more). Is the goal just to double down on her damage until the tradeoff is worth it?

Originally posted by ChiefBlueSky

Are there any preferences to bounce targetting written in? e.g. prefers bouncing to Champs if in range, prefers bouncing to a target with a target (avoid dead ends), do they prefer the closest target, or closest non-repeat target, etc.?

Originally posted by bowieneko

Curious since I do not know much about coding and I'm interested in the process of technically making a champion, but were you/would you be able to salvage parts of old Fiddlesticks' crow bounce code in it to possibly prevent or mitigate what you call jank or is it a lot more complex than that?

Originally posted by FarmNcharm

I like shits and giggles. Now add one to her Q and she can go Corki build lmao

Originally posted by SyriseUnseen

Why not higher then? AP sivir will be atrocious either way, might as well make it 100%. The 20 extra heal with baron wont matter tbh

Originally posted by bz6

I am assuming the Heal on E will only proc if the spell shield absorbs an ability correct?

Originally posted by UpstreamRedteam

I know this is a midscope, but did you guys tinker with the idea of giving Sivir more from her kit, depending on how much gold the player had unspent?

Originally posted by Slumberstroll

why did you decide to keep the teamwide MS buff on her ultimate? i thought one of the goals was to reduce utility to strengthen her individual carry potential.

Originally posted by Tronei

What are you guys aiming to achieve with these changes? As someone who was once upon a time a Sivir enjoyer, I feel like these changes don't really address the weaknesses of the champion. There are definitely some good ideas in here, such as the crit on R lowering cooldowns, but I feel like these changes don't address her on-going issues and why the lethality build is the more used build currently despite, in my opinion, being the worse build than crit. It's not because she doesn't scale off crit well enough, it's because she has issues consistently applying her damage with crit build due to her lack of range and requirement of needing more items than some of her counterparts, while also being a worse early game champion than most of the marksman who have similar range (Kog'Maw maybe being the exception, but I think he is more powerful than her early since his damage output is more consistent + he gets a bonus attack range on his main DPS spell).

Now all that's happening is her early is taking a hit in exchange for the idea that she'll be able to hit this nutso powerfantasy fight where she's AoEing 3+ people in fights and getting more damage off. While the numbers do indicate a net positive change in that regard, the problem is that I feel the design is aiming too much for the perfect scenario and not looking at the fact that A. she doesn't have a way to consistently achieve that scenario and B. she is now going to have an even harder time reaching the point where she can actually pull off that scenario. It just feels that, to me, the aim is for the theoretical rather than the real life application, and it leads to a disconnect where certain things seem like they'll make up for it, but the inherent weakness is the true issue and is not being addressed with these changes.

Originally posted by CannoloAllaCrema

I like your idea of removing lethality sivir, but aren't the changes on her E maybe a liitle too much? That would force her to go ER first or be out of mana every time given that her new "go to" ability (W) isn't exactly free

Originally posted by papu16

I an interested - what's up with her mana management? One of the reasons why people used to like lethality builds - u had tear/manamune, so you was able to spam skills a lot, at the same time crit sicir without ER have trouble with that. Also if somehow - W max first gonna become meta - you will try to change that?

Originally posted by S145D145

I'm mostly concerned about mana. Sivir depended a lot on E to get mana to get through lane (or build tear). Seems now that she gets less mana while not having any mana recovering tools, and tear is bad since it doesn't give you either AS or crit for Q.

Im guessing her final builds will probably always start with ER and either go for full AD (BT IE Navori etc) for the Q's to simulate the old Lethality build (which would end up being way more expensive) or for ER with Kraken, PD, IR and another AS item + Lethal Tempo to maximize W

Originally posted by sp33dzer0

Have you tested her wave clear at w being 60-40 mana? I feel like even with the change she is still more mama hungry than jinx for pushing waves (since you said you want her PoM/ER gated link Jinx Lucian)

Originally posted by throwaway98732876

From your experience from playing her with the changes, do you think this "skill check" aspect gates her too much? That is to say, is she now more trouble than she's worth?

Because I like the idea of Sivir having this skill check aspect that you call it but I worry that if it's too opressive that it's gating her more than it should when you compare it to the other ADC's in the roster that seem to have much of a less harsh "skill check" to them.

Originally posted by Fabiocean

Does her ricochet even proc Collector? It doesn't interact with a lot of on-hit/spell effects, after all.