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It was funny when Udyr got first picked haha look at the stupid old champ run stun job done, and hecarim was interesting for a short time as well.

But now we are seeing an entire split and now MSI being dominated entirely by these picks warping the meta, it is really inexcusable just how many patches these picks have had nothing but the lightest of nerfs.

And this isn't even mentioning their impact on soloq, at least hecarim is perma banned so you don't have to deal with him often.

Why have they not had a samira treatment completely killing them then slowly buffing back up, if they had done this months ago league would be so much better to watch right now.

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almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

FWIW, Hecarim and Udyr each received several nerfs in addition to Chemtank being nerfed.

I know Reddit likes to complain about "triple nerfing" something, but sometimes that doesn't do enough.

Hecarim's nerfs weren't in for the LCS playoffs, though he was still #1 pick/ban in the 11.6 playoffs regions.

Hecarim's second nerf, Udyr's third nerf, and Chemtank's nerf were all in 11.7, which were all put in after Riot reacted to the 11.5 second round of Udyr nerfs not lowering his priority enough.

I think a third hit on Hecarim in 11.8 is warranted, but it's not like Riot didn't continually tap them down.

Plus, let's not act like pros are good at reacting to changes on time. You say "months ago" as though people whose literal job it is to pick the strongest champions didn't fail to identify them.

11.2 had Chemtank's big buffs where it got much cheaper. Hecarim's presence: 28%. Udyr's was 74%

11.3, where Udyr was specifically nerfed and Hecarim was unchanged: Hecarim to 41% and Udyr shot up to 91%.

11.4, pro teams still catching up: Hecarim to 61%, Udyr still at 92%

11.5, pro teams still catching up (and the second round of Udyr nerfs): Hecarim to 97% and Udyr falling to 84%

11.6, the first Hecarim nerf of the year since his pro presence had been pretty low up until recently: Hecarim 95%, Udyr 80%

And we don't have pro play on 11.7 yet, which has further nerfs to both Udyr and Hecarim as well as Chemtank.

So what did we observe today? Hecarim in his strongest state took a full two months for pros to react. Udyr still had a couple patches of lag for all teams to catch on. What makes you think they're going to be any better at this on the way down?

Udyr's presence is already declining after the (edit) second nerf he received. It's reasonable to assume the further nerfs in 11.7 are going to take him off of his pedestal. The champion's solo queue win rate is completely reasonable and at this point a high ban rate is people being unwilling to accept that he's fine now and they should just deal with the fact that he kinda jungles fast.

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by mazrrim

While I see most of your points here, Hecarim is still smashing every benchmark for nerfs and has been for literal months

https://lolalytics.com/lol/hecarim/build/?tier=d2_plus&patch=11.7

"elite" tier, ranked number 1 jungler and 53.5% win rate close to 70% ban rate. This is for 11.7, "fine now"

And ill cut off any discussion now about "noooo this other stat site says he is 52.5% not 53.5%", because rather than obsess over the number in a vacuum look at his rank 1 overall in the jungler position.

"I think a third hit on Hecarim in 11.8 is warranted, but it's not like Riot didn't continually tap them down."

Literally in the post, bro.

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by anoleo201194

I just think people are so bored of seeing Heca and Udyr they want both of them to be Olaf'd to oblivion. Fwiw, even though I'm not a fan of this meta I think it's a good thing to take it slow if the champ is not Samira levels of busted, but I can see where the frustration is coming from.

And I can understand that, but let's be really specific about what happened:

Riot nerfed Udyr in the 11.5/6 playoff patch and Hecarim was only at 61% presence the last time Riot had a chance to react to pro play metrics for 11.6.

I really don't think Riot should get in the habit of roller coaster champion balance. It'll feel sh*tty for players and it'll feel sh*tty for pros just playing whack-a-mole with champion select.

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Shorgar

Isn't the problem having to clear the entire jungle pre 3:15 for crab or you are doomed? Pretty much the only things we see are champs with a super fast clear.

You don't really have to, though. Whether or not you're level 4, the team with lane priority is the one who's getting the crab. It's not unreasonable to do 5 camps and just take the other one instead.

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Avelden

Except this completely disregards SoloQ data input.

And those champions got nerfs every time they set off the solo queue flags. It's not like Riot was like, "Nah, let's just ignore the oracle data this time."

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Adaptabletochange

Tbf the balancing team has a really weird way of actually trying to "balance" something. They never directly address the issue, they always try to nerf something in 500 different ways first. In master+ elo on EUW heca and udyr is ban or dodge. That's so fun. I don't watch LCS but LEC games are so stale, like having Corki/Azir meta. Every game goes down by book, really boring knowing what happens before it does. Lee sin at least does flashy plays, heca just presses e and chemtank and runs you down. That doesn't even look good and engaging.

How exactly do you find nerfs to Phoenix Udyr's clear speed and Chemtank's movement speed "indirect"?

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Avelden

Except that the balance team deigned to not do a third nerf, which is something that pro-play numbers supports, despite Hecarims presence in soloQ as well.

Not doing a third nerf when looking at pro-play could be argued, but not when he also has as much presence in SoloQ as he does

To be clear about something, Riot cannot react to pro play the immediate patch before. Not only is there a minimum 8 day lag between a patch hitting live and pros playing on it, the number is greater than that because, let's be clear, a single bo3 between T1 and NS is not a good source of data.

So Riot is necessarily one full skipped patch behind pro play. There just isn't another way to do it. 11.7 can look at 11.5 pro play and 11.8 can look at 11.6 pro play... just not all of it, since those are playoff patches, but you at least get enough of a look.

Hecarim's most recent pro-facing nerf was 11.6, yes, meaning 11.8 could have had more pro-reactive nerfs. However, it's reasonable to conclude a large reason for his prevalence is from Chemtank, which also got nerfed in 11.7. For further reference, his win rates on non-Chemtank are pretty reasonable, leading to a fair conclusion that a Chemtank-focused nerf would be fair, combined with a lighter nerf on his E.

Could Riot have looked at 11.7 solo queue data and said "Let's keep going?" Sure. But combining the "pros take time to fully react" lag and the 11.7 double nerf, it's also fair to take a break on strict nerfs and continue observing instead.

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Best_Lingonberry_608

You raise some fair points, but I think this Spring has been really boring meta-wise in jungle especially but also in support and mid-lane. I know people used to complain about Riot making too many forced changes to meta, but honestly I would like to see some forced changes and a different meta after MSI. Maybe Viego and Gwen being available in Summer will shake up the meta?

Outside of Alistar and Rell, I'd argue that there's a lot of space in support when looking at the whole year. It's heavily engage tanks because of the first two and the next few who trail them, but Senna, TK, Seraphine, and Gragas occasionally built full AP make for some decent variety.

Mid is really just dominated by Orianna Azir Syndra Viktor Zoe TF, mostly the first three. I think Riot did a good job of getting Sylas into a playable spot and we saw some Lucian/Trist, which was also cool, but yeah I think the Orianna changes came too late.

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Djinn_in_Tonic

Hecarim's most recent nerf was 11.6

You guys actually took 10% off his maximum Devastating Charge speed in 11.7! Easy one to miss, given how much he's been in the patch notes lately.

Right, yeah, pro-facing nerf. I'll fix the post.

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Djinn_in_Tonic

Apologies! Meant it more as a reminder in case it was an unintentional slip-up than a "got you!" sort of thing. Cheers, and thanks for engaging in these discussions!

No apologies needed. I worded my post poorly and you caught it. Thanks! :)

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Best_Lingonberry_608

I mean Seraphine is much more popular in mid and bot though, TK has never been the same since those nerfs in season 9 he is a corpse of what he was (and for good reason too because he was pretty busted in pro-play). Honestly thinking of it more closely this season has better than season 9 or 10 in terms of support diversity.

My problem with the balance in support in the last 3 seasons I cannot really remember a time where Mages and Enchanters were clearly the meta over tank supports like Thresh, Ali, Nautilus, Leona, Rakan, etc. in botlane. Like when was the last time Zyra, Karma, or Lulu have been the top of the meta as supports in pro-play? Sorry for the digression this is just a pet peeve of mine about support balance.

In terms of mid I mean I don't blame Riot as much for that. The game is played almost entirely around Dragon Soul right now so you need to have good late-game teamfighting to win those fights and control mages are great at that.

1-2 years ago Karma was perma pick/ban. This was after the Ardent Censer meta.

I agree I'd like a much healthier mix of tanks and enchanters. For whatever reasons, pros seem to just go 100-0 on one side of it. Even in the Ardent Censer year, we went up until Worlds with whatever champion just building Redemption with Censer just sitting there unpicked for the whole season.

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by FlameOfDark

i love you so much man <3

<3

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by manbearbeaver

I think my biggest problem, is finding champions that punish Udyr/Hec. There aren’t a lot of good scaling answers to them, Karthus can work but has a much higher risk factor. You can beat them early with Nid, but then risk falling off. I feel like we’re in a limbo where carry junglers don’t get the necessary resources and traditional utility junglers can’t keep up.

Champions that appear to do well against Hecarim: Ivern, Skarner, Dr. Mundo, Nunu, Volibear, Rek'Sai, Trundle, Jarvan. So, mostly champions who fill the role of beefy frontliners while likely being able to out-duel him.

Good against Udyr: Ivern, Lillia, Zac, Sejuani, Taliyah, Kindred, Mundo. So, champions who make it difficult for Udyr to get past them (CC from Ivern/Taliyah) or just kite exceptionally well (Lillia, Taliyah, Kindred).

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Slotherz

Total number of nerfs isn't as relevant as the effectiveness of them. I think the point you've indirectly made here is that the nerfs haven't been good enough and some responbility here lies on the balance team.

I've seen champs get f**king nuked when Riot wants the champ out of pro play. It's clear with the repeated love taps to both Udyr and Hec that Riot was at least complicit with or enjoyed having then around and didn't want to blast them out of pro play (or blast their soloq win rates).

No jungle meta has ever been amazing tbh, but this Udyr Hec meta needs a stronger hand from the balance team to force it out, and it's not like it isn't clear why they're so good, as you can see from the comments in this thread.

To be clear, there are two distinct things going on:

An Udyr nerf, with a follow up that seems to be giving a real decline to Udyr pick/banrate, to the point where I expect with no further changes, he'd be sub-80, which tends to be the cutoff point. Still, he had another small nerf in 11.7. The round 2 nerf probably could have come in sooner, though.

And Hecarim, who did not cross pro play thresholds until the 11.6 nerf, which was a pretty substantial 0-20 damage off of Q. That is generally not what you'd consider a love tap on a low cooldown primary damage ability.

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by showmethestarcraft

And this isn't even mentioning their impact on soloq, at least hecarim is perma banned so you don't have to deal with him often.

Phreak this is a slight tangent to the Udyr/Heca comments, but wouldnt it be a bit ignorant to say that the balance team has been hitting Heca and Udyr when the primary reason for their abuse is their clear speed and early/mid game. The Chemtank nerf was an offset at best as it buffed the slow and nerfed the speed. The Heca nerf of 10% was for late game rather than his early game. Games that go that late are already decided?

Another aspect I want to ask about is Orianna / Azir / Syndra. Why weren't compensation buffs given to Orianna like base armor/mr buffs so its less teamfight (pro) oriented so its solo q rate doesnt drop. Sigyetaeyeob a GM Orianna player and a lot of orianna players are unhappy with the solo q experience because of how bad she is this season.

Hecarim's E speed doesn't scale on rank. The scaling movement speed is just how E functions. It's an all-game change.

Hecarim's first nerf was to Q damage.

Kinda disingenuous to call any of those things "not clear speed"

Compensation buffs exist when you aren't trying to rapidly solve a pro play problem. Anything like that is automatically a larger project and one you have to keep up with. Yorick is a good example of this.

If your goal is to nerf a champion to lower its pro priority (Orianna, Udyr, Hecarim) you just nerf them. At some other point down the line they can stop to figure out if pros are just being change-averse (this happens a lot) or if there's actual fenagling that needs to happen, like with Azir or Ryze.

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by link-mal-or-btfo

please tell me why even allow such one dimensional, non skill expressive champs to be viable not even in d2+ games but in pro play ?

Udyr actually has some of the steepest champion mastery in the game. Turns out that when you have no gap closers or escapes and can only use one ability at a time, knowing when to go in, leave, or choose among damage/durability/disables is pretty skillful.

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by drmamumumu

sorry did you say taliyah and kindred for outkiting udyr? the guy that runs at 600 movement speed constantly without chemtank?

Yeah if we make up numbers anything can be true! Taliyah does over 9000 damage and just oneshots the poor guy!

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by showmethestarcraft

This is helpful. Appreciate the clear conversation + involvement in the community.

Are there any plans on nerfing MS in general + do you think Mage items this season that have mana are a bit lackluster? It's wild that I can play Garen have a Stridebreaker dash + 300 armor and 300 AD but there's no counter for mages.

Sure there is. Void Staff exists as do all sorts of ways to slow him down or stop him in his tracks.

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by LumiRhino

I'm just curious for your opinion, but do you think nerfing systems around the jungle meta (Phase Rush/Chemtank, even the starting jungle item) would do more for the meta than actual changes to the jungle champs?

I think Chemtank dominating both pro play and solo queue win rates would indicate Chemtank is more the problem. At least it got nerfed two weeks ago. It's possible that the cheaper tank mythics were just not a good idea since it heavily pushes junglers, who have slightly less gold income than most roles in pro, to just play for the cheaper mythics and move forward.

I don't think Phase Rush is that meta warping. If anything it's pushing back on melee run-at-you junglers since Orianna and Cassiopeia can just run away from them with their keystone.

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by yehiko

but you do. priority or not, if everyone reacts, level 4 > 3 makes the fight in your favor every time. plus your smite is stronger.

Your smite dealing 30 damage is not going to make up for the 500 health and flash you lost because Viktor roamed first and you can't 1v2 in front of a full health scuttle. Good players use wards and just shepherd the crab out of smite range.

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Miyaor

I agree with your overall point, but unless something has really changed, Kindred has never been good into Udyr. I haven't played jungle since the season started, so maybe galeforce or something has changed things for Kindred, but they could never kite an Udyr, unless you keep jumping back and forth over a wall. He is simply too fast, and I would suspect its similar to Taliyah. This was before chemtank, and I imagine chemtank has made the jungle matchup harder. Maybe winrates support Kindred doing well into Udyr, but that is definitely not because they can kite him.

Agree that there are some counters, but just an exception to that one. A good Udyr will always shit on a Kindred. Once you get your second item you can start standing up to him, but in pro play I assume that is far too late.

A lot of it is also that he just doesn't get anything done against Kindred ultimate. You're not oneshotting, even with help, with Flash Bear Slap so after Lamb's Respite you're just a 20% health Udyr in front of a team. It's not terribly successful. Jumping walls also lets them get away reasonably well.

Kindred aren't in a great spot in overall power, but the Udyr matchup is very winrate positive.

almost 3 years ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by cygodx

FWIW, Hecarim and Udyr each received several nerfs in addition to Chemtank being nerfed.

A champ that gets AD from movement speed that builds three movement speed TANK items to also deal damage in return will not be balanced by spell numbers tho.

I bet if Hecarim Q dealt 12 base damage he'd be unplayable. Wanna take me up on it?