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Jungle Xp changes

Since the preseason patch me and a friend felt like we were getting a lot less XP in the jungle. We looked everywhere (patch notes, jungle item description, riot-released videos) but couldn't find an explanation for getting less XP. After doing some testing we found that jungle base experience from camps was reduced across the board.

I will include the spreadsheet of test we did here: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1NGrh6dZWNx_LMAvOCrJsOURdmqp5c0M1Bauv2bEr0j8/edit?usp=sharing

TLDR;

Jungle camps give less experience at higher levels compared to before preseason. At the maximum camp level (when the average game level is 9) you get 7~% less XP from full clearing and 4% less XP from only clearing small camps. This wasn't mentioned anywhere in the patch notes. This feels especially bad because solo lane XP got buffed this patch.

Pets and Treats

Adding to that it says in the patch notes, you will feed ur pet one treat when: "1 treat per large monster/champion takedown". On this current patch, you will NOT get a treat when you score a champion takedown.

In the jungle item text in-game, it doesn't say you will get a treat when you score a champion takedown.

Another point is that when you click on the jungle item in-game it says you get a treat every 60 seconds when ur pet is fully evolved. This should however say 90 seconds, you do get the right amount of treats in-game.

Gold from clearing

Gold calculations are included in the spreadsheet above.

TLDR;

Gold in preseason is about the same, a lot of the gold you would usually get from full clearing is compensated by the treats. This also means that junglers who didn't fullclear before get more gold on average now.

If you have any feedback feel free to add to the discussion.

Credits to Methylfenidaat and ScienTrist for the research

Edit: Previously said 8% and 5%, math was wrong on wolves XP, fixed now. Added scuttle crab aswell.

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19 days ago - /u/RiotPhlox - Direct link

This is cause base xp of camps went down (and was compensated on item) and camp xp over lvls scales off of that base number (at least in pretty sure that's what's happening). Decent chance we up scaling to compensate

19 days ago - /u/RiotPhlox - Direct link

Originally posted by Scientrist

But why does it not say that in the patch notes? There was no reference to these XP changes in the patch notes. Pretty sure nothing was added back onto the item. Maybe you guys missed smt. Im very curious what the intended change was

Well technically the way they scale didn't change (percent of base is unchanged). The base reduction of xp was in the patch notes wasn't it? -15xp on camps +15xp on camp kill for jungler

It should've been in there probs and my fault for not passing it along

19 days ago - /u/RiotPhlox - Direct link

Originally posted by Scientrist

Alright i understand the changes now, im assuming it has to do with the 15 XP shift that was in the patch notes right? If this is the case can you please make it more clear in the patch notes. Because I am sure with the current wording 99% of players will not understand this change.

Sadly a bit of awk timing since a lot of us are off for Thanksgiving, but when we're back I'll pass it along

19 days ago - /u/RiotPhlox - Direct link

Originally posted by Scientrist

I will update the reddit post for now and explain what happened. But it is really unclear currently. I also feel like it needs a bit of compensation. It is kinda weird to just shift the XP like this and not give compensation. Because taking XP out of the jungle wasn't what was intended right?

Likely gonna compensate ya

19 days ago - /u/RiotPhlox - Direct link

Originally posted by Scientrist

You should also take a look at the other stuff we found regarding the treats and champion takedowns and the tooltip for the jungle item.

Yeah there's def some tooltip cleanup needed, thanks!

19 days ago - /u/RiotPhlox - Direct link

Originally posted by Scientrist

And what about the champion takedown. Is this supposed to give a you a treat or not. Because there is some discrepancies between the patch notes and the game.

Assume ingame is correct for things like this

19 days ago - /u/RiotPhlox - Direct link

Originally posted by EgonThyPickle

Wouldn't it be better to just make the bonus xp scale instead or is there something I'm missing? That way you keep the xp for non-junglers the same while still buffing the xp for junglers back to their old values.

Definitely possible! I'm not committed to any change yet and there's benefits to each (or something else)

19 days ago - /u/RiotPhlox - Direct link

Originally posted by phylaris

Out of curiosity, is the intent to equalize S12 and S13 EXP values on all the non-Krugs camps, or to overcompensate by a little bit to partially make up for the nerfed Krugs exp?

Not sure tbh, likely would be slightly down cause Krugs is a more takeable camp but I don't want to commit to anything here/now since we're on break and I haven't thought about it deeply yet

19 days ago - /u/RiotPhlox - Direct link

Originally posted by phylaris

Ya I definitely agree the total EXP should be lower than S12.

I feel a middle-ground where Krugs are still worth significantly less than before, but the other camps are worth a tiny bit more than S12 (still lower as a sum total) might be worth considering. The amount of EXP lost relative to S12 while ganking/holding lanes from the -25% minion EXP penalty is super noticeable, so combined with the lower camp EXP junglers seem to be consistently falling really far down on EXP compared to sololaners.

Possibly the kind of thing we do over a few changes too, bring it up to par with before and see how that shakes out and so on. These kinds of things can be super sensitive and preseason is still quite long for making sure we land the right number

19 days ago - /u/RiotPhlox - Direct link

Originally posted by IamLevels

Any chance you guys can consider tweaking how stacks of the jungle item are generated? With both junglers taking longer to upgrade their smites cause you need 40 and the stacks being tied to actually killing the large monster of each champ, I find that the jungler whose team is behind struggles to get their smite to 1200 as their camps inevitably get poached by both enemies and their own teammates alike. Previously, the only criteria for upgrading your smite was simply casting it 5 times, so junglers who were behind were still able to get their smite on even footing as the enemy jungler more consistently. With this current stack system, the jungler who's behind ends up being stuck at 900 much longer than their opponent, meaning they're almost always unable to 50/50 a smite-fight unless the enemy makes a critical mistake.

I'm not sure how this will impact the average time junglers get to 1200 but if the actual smite cast itself generated 1-2 stacks, it would help lessen the reliance of actually killing larger monsters for the jungler who is behind and isn't able to get access to as many large monsters even on their own half of the map. I find myself as a jungler almost always trying to counter-jungle as much as possible when ahead on this patch because I'm able to reliably delay the enemy jungler's smite from reaching 1200 for a majority of mid-game, letting me have the better smite for all mid-game objectives. And when you're the jungler whose smite isn't at 1200, it feels hopeless not being able to stall the game by delaying things like enemy drag soul with a steal because your smite isn't fully upgraded.

Currently there's something coming next patch which means behind junglers should be able to cash out bonus treats faster when they can get a few camps. Likely not enough on its own but we'll see. Lots of tuning to make sure this mechanic lands exactly as it needs to