Original Post — Direct link

I am a Rell main with 90k mastery points and I firmly believe that she needs no buffs or nerfs. I checked the PBE and she has changes (posted below) that seem dissonant to how I play her and how other mains play her. She has nerfs to utility (giving allies defensive stats and base shield) and buffs to her AP scalings.

If the goal is to make her viable in solo lanes, all you have to do is let her heal off Q when she isn't bound to another champion. If the goal is to make her an AP champion... why?

I don't want an additional 80% in total AP scalings for my tank support champion. The only way I see this playing out is she turns into a bootleg AP Malphite, which I don't think is healthy.

My concern is that these changes will make her unhealthy and Riot will be so attached to this "new gameplay style" that they will ruin her original niche trying to fit her inside of a different one.

Ferromancy (W)
    Crash Down:
        Damage increased from [70/105/140/175/210 + 40% AP] to [70/105/140/175/210 + 60% AP]
        Shield lowered from [40/70/100/130/160 +13% Max Health] to [20/45/70/95/120 + 13% Max health]
    Mount Up:
        Passive Armor and MR increased from 10% to 20%
        Additional damage increased from [10/25/40/55/70 + 30% AP] to [10/25/40/55/70 + 40% AP]

Attract and Repel (E)
    Allied Armor and MR lowered from 10% to 5%
    Damage lowered from [80/120/160/200/240 + 30% AP] to [80/110/140/170/200 + 40% AP]

Magnet Storm (R)
    Damage changed from [120/200/280 + 70% AP] to [120/200/280 + 110% AP]
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almost 4 years ago - /u/RiotRayYonggi - Direct link

AFAIK the goal of the change-list (which I'm not even sure is final) is to very slightly nerf her (she's statistically sitting at 52% (all elo) and 53.5% (plat+) atm with some room left to grow), and also skew her slightly back towards Q max being correct by weakening the durability gained with each W point. The AP ratios are mostly just extra and aren't much power at all unless going Shurelyas as the other guy mentioned.

almost 4 years ago - /u/RiotRayYonggi - Direct link

Originally posted by OhGodSorry

Thank you, I mostly just wanted to hear a rioter explain what the changes were for because these look a lot like forcing her to be an ap mage/bruiser.

While nerfing her is reasonable, the phrasing of "Q max being correct" is a little confusing to me. Q feels bad to use due to its high cast time and how much power of it is focused in the shieldbreak/heal. I don't like maxing it because of just how useless it is in lane outside of skirmishes.

Basic idea around the Q thing was that Q feels really wimpy if not max'd, but W feels effective no matter what, so the character can feel more visceral/punchy if Q max was what people did more often, as it increases the damage and healing per point.

almost 4 years ago - /u/RiotRayYonggi - Direct link

Originally posted by BADxW0LF1

Are there plans to buff q, then? Or, as you stated above, are you trying to skew/force people to max q?

I think our impression is that Q rank-ups are already pretty good (It's current optimal to max W then Q), so just nudging W rank-ups down slightly so that Q can shine more. Hesitant to buff Q rank ups because we should really not be risking giving her more win-rate.

almost 4 years ago - /u/RiotRayYonggi - Direct link

Originally posted by Necroside

Do you by any chance happen to know what Veigar changes are in the works?

No clue atm. I know we have larger item system changes in the works for 11.3 (including mages) that Veigar might like, otherwise not sure where we are at on him.

almost 4 years ago - /u/RiotRayYonggi - Direct link

Originally posted by BADxW0LF1

First, quick off topic question: is there a reason why your website and client do not display the actual stats of abilities for champs? Feel like I shouldn't have to go to other sites to see these stats. It should be on the actually League of Legends site or client. Looking at both, I do not see the actual stats of the abilities in client or website.

Second, the heal just feels absolutely abysmal if you want to do a q max, especially early. As someone who wants to main her, those numbers just do not feel appealing enough to say "I want to max q over w" unless you decide not to build her as a tank and build full ap to compensate the lack of healing. Unless you think the appeal for the q doesn't lie in the healing for a support champion with an ability that heals.

Idk the real reason we don't publish those stats, I imagine it's because other sites exist that are close enough (using our API) so re-inventing the wheel isn't a great use of our manpower.

The heal is pretty strong as it scales with missing HP, so in an all-in with Q max you can get 100-300 eHP in early all-ins bottom lane if you hit good Q's (especially multi-hit). I agree for poke+lane sustain it's not great, and it's not meant to be the use-case.

almost 4 years ago - /u/RiotRayYonggi - Direct link

Originally posted by OhGodSorry

So is Riot's "ideal" optimal max order Q > E > W or Q > W > E?

I totally understand the hesitation to add more power into the kit, you've sold me on the nerfs to w and e (though the ap ratio buffs still scare me). Have you guys looked at giving more single target value and diminishing returns for multiple targets? My problem with the ability is how much of the power is based on hitting multiple targets, which isn't always super easy to utilize in plat+

The designer mainly just wants Q to feel good. In games lately the feedback on Q has been that it feels wimpy because people max W (which is correct). In dev we maxed Q for most of it because the tuning was such that Q max was correct, but shortly before release I believe we added some power to W max and it overtook it.

almost 4 years ago - /u/RiotRayYonggi - Direct link

Originally posted by Necroside

With that said (if you are allowed to say that is)

Have the potential changes just been scrapped overall or are they still in development? or it's just you really don't know about it period :o

I appreciate the initial response nevertheless and your time Yonggi.

I genuinely have no idea. Admittedly I don't play veigar (or really much mid in general) so I don't spend much brainpower keeping up with or chasing down changes in that space specifically.

almost 4 years ago - /u/RiotRayYonggi - Direct link

Originally posted by manbearbeaver

Why do you want to control what people are maxing? What’s the point of artificially making a certain skill order “correct”, she’s a support why would you want to max the damage ability, when you could max utility?

I have mentioned it somewhere else, but it's not because we want them to specifically have more damage, it's because we want all 4 abilities to feel like they are pulling their weight, and unfortunately Q doesn't feel like it when it's not maxed. (W and E still do, as like you said, they are heavy CC/resist utility).

almost 4 years ago - /u/RiotRayYonggi - Direct link

Originally posted by manbearbeaver

But the goal isn’t to make Q max the optimal route right? It’s just to put it more inline with the her other abilities? Because I can get behind that, but I have a slight problem with the designer having a preferential skill order.

The designer has less of a preferential skill order, and more of a way he designed the champ to feel, and when Q feels bad it's something that'd be nice to address. Really that simple, and like you said, it's just to bring it in line.

almost 4 years ago - /u/GalaxySmash - Direct link

Originally posted by Necroside

With that said (if you are allowed to say that is)

Have the potential changes just been scrapped overall or are they still in development? or it's just you really don't know about it period :o

I appreciate the initial response nevertheless and your time Yonggi.

The context that I know is that he is either tripping oracle lines or is close, I don't believe we are looking to do work on him, but I would say buffs are likely if he does end up tripping those oracle lines.

almost 4 years ago - /u/GalaxySmash - Direct link

Originally posted by Necroside

> I don't believe we are looking to do work on him

I asked since me along with the majority of Veigar players were under the assumption he would receive buffs due to Mark Yetter/Scruffy saying he would be looked into on his earlier tweets in this month.

Yeah I just wanted to differentiate "doing work" and a simple buff. I interpreted doing work as in some level of a rework, which we don't have planned. I would say to expect buffs if he does hit below oracle lines, which I believe he is either there or very close to there.