Original Post — Direct link
12 months ago - /u/Ovedius - Direct link

Originally posted by ahritina

Vedius clueless as usual.

"MAD Lions pushed world champions Damwon all the way to 5 games, and they should have won the series, they were in such a massive lead and threw it".

No, Vedius they did not, all of Damwon's wins vs MAD at MSI were 26 minutes or less.

You're takling about game 2 vs Damwon at worlds, and even then it's 1-1 if they win the game but DK most likely win the series 3-1.

Edit = Vedius also said G2 beat GENG twice in a best of 5 when they've only played in one best of 5, did he not do any research or what lol.

2016 = G2 failed in groups, 2017 = G2 failed in groups, 2018 = Gen.G failed in groups, 2019 = Gen.G didn't make worlds, 2020 = G2 beat Gen.G, 2021 = G2 didn't make worlds and 2022 = G2 failed in groups and Gen.G have never made MSI either.

Not sure the 'clueless as usual' comment is very fair but you are right, I've been pretty sick the last few days and I confused some things. You're right that GenG and G2 only played once, for some reason I thought they had played the year before but it was Damwon who they beat in 2019.

Regarding the MAD point, game 4 within the first 10 minutes of the game they were in a good spot and I considered it a winning position until they failed a dive bot and got steamrolled. I think it's fair to criticize my language of 'they should have won the series' but none of this changes the main point which is that Both european orgs have challenged top korean teams before in best of 5s.

That doesn't change the fact that I still predict the LCK to win both series and I believe I gave pretty fair reasons for doing so. I do however apologise for the mistakes, on a better day I'd like to think I wouldn't make them.

12 months ago - /u/Ovedius - Direct link

Originally posted by Hannig4n

I feel like a lot of EU fans understandably portray that series from a viewpoint that is as charitable as possible to the EU team while neglecting to apply the same charity to their opponent.

The first thing to point out is that while MAD was briefly in a winning position in game 4, the lead was tiny, and the gold was still even. While MAD was farming ghost/beryl and getting lots of kills, DK’s solo lanes had both topside turrets down to one plate. A lot of the gold swing didn’t come from the kills, it came from Khan taking first turret top during the dive and canyon/Showmaker taking mid turret immediately after.

So one thing to consider is that even if MAD called off that dive and no one died, they would’ve still been in a 1-2k gold deficit afterwards, because the top lane turret still goes down and probably the mid lane turret as well. I don’t think that game 4 was as much a throw as some people like to argue.

The other thing is that no one talks about DK being in a winning position in game 2 before throwing that one. There a bit of a double standard in that the series was just as a close to being a 3-1 where all DK’s wins were 25 min stomps as it was to being a MAD win. Everyone talks about what if MAD didn’t “throw” game 4, no one applies the same thing to how DK would’ve been up 2-0 had they not thrown game 2.

So while I agree that your core point that MAD has challenged a top LCK team in the past is decently valid (and the “Vedius is clueless” comments are completely assholish), I think the way that EU fans like to portray that series shows bias in a subtle and mostly innocent way.

How I interpret your post is that in my comment, I'm diminishing DKs performance to prop up MAD, and as a fan, I completely understand why that's frustrating. Also, as someone who clearly remembers the series more vividly than I do, it is even more frustrating to hear comments like this, with series being misrepresented and false premises being set.

I hear your argument and think it's a fair one. I would argue that this largely stems from a place of trying to find ways that fans can still believe in MAD. And while we seem to both agree that the argument has validity, the representation and language used is an area to improve. Talking about how MAD went a full 5 games against DK can still be a valid example while representing the reality of the series being a constant uphill struggle for MAD.

Ultimately, that is the main takeaway I wanted people to hear. That T1 are the clear favourites and that MAD will come in as the underdogs. I believe I said that T1 is just a better version of MAD. I even predicted T1 to win 3-1. And I do hope we can have another full 5 game series. Thanks for taking the time to chat with me, and I'll bear this in mind for the future.