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[2019] Riot Blaustoise's thoughts on how the Ranked ladder should be like


Original Post — Direct link

https://twitter.com/RiotBlaustoise/status/1125821120035221504

📊Ranked Distribution Data Chat 📈

Say we're designing a ranked ladder, and we want to create a competitive system, but not too "gate-keepy" & restrictive.

Let's also consider the Spongebob episode with the Salty Spitoon and Weenie Hut Jr to frame our prospective systems:

https://twitter.com/RiotBlaustoise/status/112582112368421273

Short version is the Spitoon may be too gatekeep-y and the Weenie Hut is too soft and generous.

But how do these theoretical distributions compare to the ranked distributions of @LeagueOfLegends, @PlayOverwatch, and @DOTA2 ?

(data is PUBLIC from https://www.esportstales.com)

https://twitter.com/RiotBlaustoise/status/1125821125345271813

LoL is BY FAR the most salty & Spitoon-y. S9 is CLEARLY an improvement on... whatever was going on in S8. But LoL still looks rough.

OW is closest to Weenie Hut, but it's mostly normal, whereas Dota 2 (with Ancient = Diamond) is closest to our "goldilocks" distribution.

https://twitter.com/RiotBlaustoise/status/1125821128151261184

Now if we consider that Divine = Diamond, Dota starts to look more like the Salty Spitoon, but it's also just a weird framing of their distribution... Herald (at the bottom) has no equivalent tier in LoL, AND both Herald and Guardian would have no equivalents in OW.

https://twitter.com/RiotBlaustoise/status/1125821129635975168

"But Blaustoise, Divine IS the Diamond of Dota 2"

And that's our problem. Perception and framing of ranks. Someone in my chat said "Diamond is supposed to be the best of the best" What does that make masters? The best of the best of the best? and Grandmasters? and Challenger?

https://twitter.com/RiotBlaustoise/status/1125821130495807488

My suggestions for LoL's ranked distribution:

  • More players shifted from bronze/silver into gold/platinum

  • Diamond becomes a real "major division" with 5-8% of the top players, instead of an "elite division" (even makes sense thematically as we go from metals to "masters").

https://twitter.com/RiotBlaustoise/status/1125821131305316352

Lastly for elite divisions:

  • Masters becomes a clean 1%

  • Upon reaching masters, your RAW RANK is displayed (i.e. rank 2534 masters NA) similar to @PlayHearthstone.

  • Grandmasters is more exclusive at the top 0.1% (around what masters+ is now)

  • Challenger stays as a set #.

https://twitter.com/RiotBlaustoise/status/1125821132165111808

Goals:

  • make LoL less gate-keepy,

  • center the distribution around gold

  • make Diamond a major division so more players can feel good about being at the "top" without being "elite"

  • Provide more transparency + competition to elite players

Let me know your thoughts!

https://twitter.com/RiotBlaustoise/status/1125824566943571968

TO CLARIFY, This does NOT effect matchmaking. MMR is different than RANK.

Also with a distinction of 99% of players in "normal" divisions, we could give the elite 1% a more unique matchmaking experience. Longer queue times for increased quality, reduced autofill, etc.

External link →
over 5 years ago - /u/Blaustoise - Direct link

Originally posted by accept_it_jon

make Diamond a major division so more players can feel good about being at the "top" without being "elite"

diamond being just another division in overwatch is a big reason why i f**king hate ranked overwatch and why low to mid elo diamond is such an incredible shitshow

i like the "raw rank" display, it's a fun way to track people in legend in hearthstone though

otherwise this just once again sounds like riot wants to f**k with the ranking system for no reason

First of all, we're not doing this. I don't even work on ranked, it's just a suggestion/thought I had.

Secondly, OW has pretty generous divisions... diamond is like 10%, masters is 3-4%, and GM is 1%. What I'm suggesting is still pretty far off.

I'm thinking diamond is 6-8% (still a "major division", but the smallest with Iron), and the "elite divisions" are the top 1% of players only (Masters, GM maybe at 0.1%, and Challenger at the set number)

over 5 years ago - /u/Blaustoise - Direct link

Originally posted by mayuran95

"LoL is BY FAR the most salty & Spitoon-y. S9 is CLEARLY an improvement on... whatever was going on in S8. But LoL still looks rough." I'm confused.. He's joking right? Ranked this season is complete trash compared to s7 + s8 because they messed with things that were working, and then later reverted it (d5 players getting into masters because of nuts lp gains for example)

There were major matchmaking issues this season. Not contesting that, and especially early S9 had much larger matchmaking issues than we’ve ever had in S7 or S8.

I’m saying the overall ranked distribution of S9 looks much better than S8. Have to click on the sample graphs, but yeah the ranked distributions are different than MMR/matchmaking

over 5 years ago - /u/Blaustoise - Direct link

Originally posted by tankmanlol

Why is "make LoL less gate-keepy" a goal? A division is elite because most people can't get into it. Making it less gatekeepy seems to defeat the whole point of an elite division.

Not saying it's necessarily wrong, but I don't think it's obvious that it should be a goal. There's a clear downside to putting more people in masters-it makes getting masters mean less. What's the upside?

Because it's meaningless at this point. I understand that we started with diamond being "the best of the best", but now we've added in masters + challenger, and recently grandmasters.

  • Masters = the best of the best of the best
  • Grandmasters = best of the best of the best of the best
  • Challenger = best of the best of the best of the best of the best

It's a little ridiculous. Furthermore I think there's a perception issue when masters+ players are like "UGH why are these DIAMOND players in my games" when in reality, we look at the MMR of the D2 or D1 player they're complaining about... and it's the same elo as them.

Sure there have been legit matchmaking issues this season, but I genuinely think having a more normal distribution of ranks as well as clear distinction between normal divisions (iron to diamond, 99% of players) and elite divisions (masters, GM, chal, top 1% of players) would just make more sense.

over 5 years ago - /u/Blaustoise - Direct link

Originally posted by EsterWithPants

This is going to be a hard pill for people to swallow because it would undermind what "being gold/plat/diamond" means since you're bumping everyone up one tier, but that's going to just have to be something people get over and deal with.

I think that quietly, everyone just assumed that Iron would be filled with B5 players from old, and everything would stay the same, but I don't think people have internalized that Iron wasn't expanding the bottom of the ladder, and what each rank represents now is not the same as it was a few years back. This would be easier with a hard MMR number attached to you, but we aren't getting that.

It's a good thing, but something that the community is going to push back on because it's not going to feel good to them at first. Though this is likely to be for the better for everyone once the angry subreddit threads calm down.

Yeah, one of the biggest issues with this proposal is getting over the mental hurdles, perceptions, and familiarity biases.

Diamond was historically THE "elite" tier. But on so many levels it makes more sense as a major division once we added in Challenger, Masters, and now Grandmasters. Even the slight increase in the size of diamond from S8 to S9 has caused all sorts of issues, and the despite the MMR of many high diamond players being close to masters players, there's still a perception that it's matchmaking that's messed up and not just rank. And that's even MORE problematic because there WERE major issues with matchmaking at the beginning of the season that causes a lot of issues that are still perceived today even if they're not really occurring.

I also think a system where the "elite" ranks (top 1%, masters+ in my ideal world) are given a raw ranking at the top so they can actually see who they're playing with respect to that top tier of the ladder. That would solve for a lot of those perception issues imo...

over 5 years ago - /u/Blaustoise - Direct link

Originally posted by Parysian

These changes would be all technically superficial right? Like your division doesn't actually have any impact on matchmaking, it's just a rough reflection of your MMR, correct?

correct. Also these are just suggestions I'm throwing out there to see how much they get flamed. No plan to implement currently.

over 5 years ago - /u/Blaustoise - Direct link

Originally posted by throw_away_360

no point in even playing then if everyone is diamond

it's already a joke in season 9 now

d4 is basically an insult

The top 6-8% is everyone...?

6-8%? so 92-94% are explicitly NOT diamond? Weird framing of "everyone"

over 5 years ago - /u/Blaustoise - Direct link

Originally posted by Smash_it

Because like it or not, it is the worst system if we look it from mental aspect. It is way too grindy and not rewarding.

^ solid answer

over 5 years ago - /u/Blaustoise - Direct link

Originally posted by Copiz

Blastoise Suggestion: Diamond becomes a real "major division" with 5-8% of the top players

Blaustoise Rank: P2

Ladder Rank: 57,924 (5.981% of top)

https://na.op.gg/summoner/userName=Riot+Blaustoise

LMAO I ALREADY BEAT YOU TO THIS THOUGH

https://twitter.com/RiotBlaustoise/status/1125827040844713984?s=20

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