Original Post — Direct link

A follow up from the previous post yesterday

Riot Phlox Tweeted the full upcoming changes for patch 12.2

12.2 Preview with stuff!

Samira's new to this list, same reason as the💨bros.

It's a meaty patch for sure, what are y'alls thoughts on it?

Imgur (image) link: https://imgur.com/a/BeB1NeO

>>> Champion Buffs <<<


Base stats

  • HP/lvl: 85 >>> 95


  • AD Ratio: 75% >>> 85%


Base stats

  • AD/lvl: 3 >>> 3.5


  • Cooldown: 15 >>> 13s



  • AD Ratio: 100% >>> 105%



  • AD Ratio: 100% >>> 105%



  • Cooldown: 7/6.5/6/5.5/5 >>> 6/5.5/5/4.5/4

  • Stacks from Large Minions/Monsters: 2 >>> 3


Base stats

  • HP: 559 >>> 600

  • HP Regen: 3.75 >>> 4



  • Now slows enemies by 20% (+6%/100 AP)(+10%/100 bonus AD) for 2s



  • Damage per bullet: 0/10/20 (+50% AD) >>> 5/15/25 (+50% AD)

>>> Champion Nerfs <<<



  • Increased Q damage: 5/5.5/6/6.5/7% >>> 4/4.5/5/5.5/6% Target's Max HP



  • Bonus Monster Damage: 130% >>> 105%


  • Grass Zone Duration: 3.5 >>> 3s

  • HP Regen: 7.5 >>> 6



  • Cooldown: 16/15/14/13/12 >>> 17/16/15/14/13s



  • Base Damage: 100% AD >>> 65% AD

>>> Champion Nerfs <<<

Tahm Kench


  • Slow: 40% >>> 50%


  • Grey Health: 45/50/55/60/65% >>> 15/25/35/45/55%, increased to 45/50/55/60/65% if there are two or more nearby visible enmies (Dead or Alive)

  • Grey HP to HP: 30-100% lvls >>> 45-100% lvls 1-18


  • Shield: 400/500/600 (+100% AP) >>> 500/700/900 (+150% AP)

  • Ally Cast: Slows Kench for 30/20/10% >>> Grants Kench 40% Move Speed for 3 seconds




  • [NEW] Passive: Rengar can now leap from Camouflage

>>> System Buffs <<<

Lich Bane

  • Haste: 0 >>> 15

  • Spellblade damage: 150% base AD (+40% AP) >>> 75% base AD (+50% AP)

  • Cooldown: 2.5s >>> 1.5s

  • Build Path Changed


  • Cost: 3000 >>> 2600

  • AP: 90 >>> 75

  • Health: 350 >>> 400

>>> System Nerfs <<<

Lethal Tempo

  • Attack Speed Per Stack: Melee 13% >>> 10-15% / Ranged 7% >>> 5-9%

Hextech Soul

  • Damage: 25-75 >>> 25-50

Chemtech Soul

  • Zombie Bleedout Time: 4s >>> 3s

  • Zombie Health: 80% Base + 50% Bonus >>> 70% Base + 40% Bonus

Chemtech Terrian

  • OOC Recamo Timer: 1.5s >>> 2.5s

  • Always Camo on Zone Enter >>> Respect OOC Time

  • Damage Amp: up to 10% >>> up to 12%

External link →
4 days ago - /u/TheTruexy - Direct link

Originally posted by SwimmingJunky

Samira's new to this list, same reason as the💨bros.

Okay, so then why doesn't Quinn get anything? She got hit just as hard as Samira/Yasuo/Yone did (3% WR drop, barely 49% WR in Diamond+ with a 1% playrate) with the Shieldbow nerfs, on top of being the only one of those three that was DIRECTLY nerfed (literally kneecapped her main ability by 20% AS) because of Shieldbow on patch 11.21.

And the frustrating thing is Riot refuses to communicate to anyone asking about Quinn's state. They refuse to share data, their reasoning as to why she apparently doesn't deserve to be given compensation buffs when she was the only one double-nerfed by these changes. Just like they refused to ever explain why Quinn was nerfed in the first place on 11.21. There's a reason why people meme that Quinn only got nerfed cause Riot Phlox got his ass handed to him by a Quinn as Volibear.

I'll chime in here, since there's a lot of assumptions being made.

Our data shows Quinn dropped 1% in Avg MMR and 0.5% in Skilled MMR. This puts her at ~49.5 and ~52 depending on your parameters.

Yes, Quinn is weaker if she builds Shieldbow. To be a bit blunt, that was the point of nerfing Shieldbow. Shieldbow champs were outperforming other champs.

Should Quinn be compensated because she lies between 50-52%? It's not a clear yes/no. However, she's in our mind a very viable-strong champion in the expected patch. On the other hand, champions that fall below 47/48% are usually notably weak. The champions that usually sit here without being buffed are notorious Pro Play champions (which is a while different discussion), like Azir, Aphelios, Ryze, and until recently Akali.

I agree, Quinn is a niche champion with a lower playrate than Yasuo and Yone. However, it's a very complex discussion to say that niche champions "deserve" to sit at higher winrates and I won't give a definitive answer since it varies for champions and situations. A champion being 52-54% doesn't necessarily make the champion more popular (see Asol). A niche champion being strong may not also be good for the game (imagine tryndamere being 54%). Sometimes even niche champions don't even necessarily have hard skill curves, so the assertion that "only mains are propping up the winrate" might not even be true.

Anyways, this is something we are looking at examining even better, since clearly there's some areas where we're missing what players feel are strong or what we feel are weak. We're not perfect, but we're working to get there.

4 days ago - /u/TheTruexy - Direct link

Originally posted by SwimmingJunky

Thanks for finally responding.

But if that was the point of nerfing Shieldbow, then why was Quinn the only one who was specifically target nerfed BECAUSE of it. I think that's the problem Quinn players like myself are having. If Shieldbow was the problem, then why not just nerf the item instead of the champ itself? Instead, what happened was Quinn got her main ability and the one she maxes first completely kneecapped (-20% attack speed at max rank and one that you feel everytime you proc Harrier), then the problematic item nerfed afterwards. So she is double-nerfed and essentially in a worse spot than before Shiedbow ever became a problem. Why not just revert the 11.21 nerfs then now that problematic Shieldbow/Wit's End has been nerfed?

Personally, I think there's a fair argument to say Shieldbow could have been nerfed much sooner to avoid hitting champs and this sentiment of "riot special", even if it was correct per the data.

But more specifically, it was not just Quinn. Quinn's nerf was because her dominant build and role exceeded our winrate threshold with a large enough playrate (>54%). Basically, this is our metric saying, if this champ is in your game, its likely unfair.

We also nerfed many other shieldbow-dominant champs, Graves, Viego, Irelia, Aphelios Ashe, Varus are few that have had Shieldbow as their best item.

4 days ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by j3rmz

I personally love morde jungle. I started playing it right before his mini buff to his passive and was really stoked to read the patch notes a few weeks after investing into the champ.

Morde jungle is great. I'm having a blast playing him.

4 days ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by UNOvven

Lmao, I just realised theyre buffing Nocturne. This is possibly the first time a champion is getting buffed simply because people insist on building them incorrectly. Just dont buy Axiom Arc and youll win a lot more.

Nocturne and Senna both :)

Many of us pushed very hard for stripping several of the potential Senna buffs. That said, players really do like playing her as crit, so getting her builds closer in power level is definitely important.

4 days ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by UNOvven

Eh, not as much as youd think. Conqueror was only slightly worse on Noc, and only changed to about even. Lethal Tempo makes up for maybe .5% of the 4% he lost.

Conqueror was already better on Nocturne. People are just still choosing to build incorrectly.

4 days ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by UNOvven

Eh, pre-preseason they were picked at similar rates and Conqueror lagged behind by half a percent point consistently. At that point, Lethal Tempo was still better. Nowadays its not though, and yeah, people are building him incorrectly.

Idk I explicitly Nocturne one-tricked the back half of 2021 and Conqueror seemed to always be higher any time I checked. Eh whatever.

4 days ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by UNOvven

Ok looking at it, I do wonder whats going on with Senna. Sunderer wasnt nerfed, was it? Why did Kraken suddenly overtake it.

Kraken has been her most popular build for at least the last eight months. It’s never been her strongest.

4 days ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by UX1Z

Wait, August/people wanted to buff her more than this? Jesus.

She is overall unsuccessful and preseason ended up nerfing her. Just because an unpopular strong build exists doesn’t mean the champion can’t be buffed. At least I think it’s reasonable to approach the game that way.