[2020] 100T Cody Sun: "I think Runes Reforged added kind of a power creep or just extra damage for pretty much everyone. For example, you have ADCs complaining about getting one-shot by Nautilus or Leona"

Originally posted by izillah

I feel like this is well trod ground at this point. As general rule EVERYTHING Riot add to the game is more powerful than the stuff that preceded it.

The notable exception in this example is that you cannot really spec into MR and Armour in botlane where it's almost certain you are going to be facing mixed damage.

I'm actually interested in whether other options might be better than arbitrarily going AS|AD|Armour . Especially in some match ups where the AD does mixed or little damage early like Kaisa or Twitch. Or double dipping defence against lanes like Lucian Nami where you will outscale without the 9AD anyway

Originally posted by Ehler

If youre gonna bash someone for being unable to read patch notes you might wanna read 8.11 yourself.

Originally posted by raie2

It's true we don't don't have access to the numbers the way you do, so I have a few questions for my own curiosity:

1) How differently do the old runes in contrast to the runes reforged perform mathematically in later stages of the game vs. early stages? In early stages of the game, I imagine (off the top of my head with no research done) that you're right about the old runes not being too different mathematically than the runes reforged, but I would think that as the game continues, the runes reforged offer more damage increases and reductions.

2) I'm not sure exactly how to word this, but how are the possible rune combinations affect the math behind what you said? What I mean is before, one restrictions were that MR glyphs offered more MR than any other runes which meant that if you wanted as much MR as efficiently as possible, you couldn't get CD gylphs. So this system created some limitations in what players could obtain. Now with runes reforged, players can only select one option per line and two options in their secondary tree. Also if a player wants, say, electrocute, they are forced into the domination tree. So both runes systems have different limitations to them and how do these limitations affect the damage increases and reductions from runes reforged. In you post you mentioned, that a player can always take bone platting for damage reduction which is true, but like you also implied, players typically also heavily prioritize CD which could makes a player decide between, say, inspiration secondary and resolution secondary. Could the forcing of decisions in trees (secondary typically since the primary tree is usually selected only for keystone, but I think the same argument applies) affect damage done by certain runes reforged options?

Sorry for the long post. I was having a hard time wording my second question and felt I had to give a lot of context.

Originally posted by imArsenals

Phreak, while the damage/power creep may not specifically be from runes reforged - there is still a damage/power creep and that’s really the “issue” Cody Sun and others are complaining about. And you know that.

Originally posted by Sgtvangelder

I sometimes run AP+AP as Naut because I don't need the tank stats. I blow up the ADC and unless the enemy support is Leona or Braum, I blow them up too.

As a support main who primarily plays Thresh, Naut, Leona, and this season some Senna I can say that way more times than I can count 1v1 the enemy adc with 0 problem. I always read the patch notes, and mathematically true or not what matters is that it FEELS like damage is way out of control.

I played Aphelios in an ARAM last night, and the enemy AP Gragad could kill me in under a second, while the entire time I am cc'd by uncleansable cc, and don't deal damage back. Playing squishy champs doesn't even feel fair half the time because everyone lives longer and does more damage.

Originally posted by imArsenals

The discussion is that there’s powercreep/damage creep. The discussion is that there’s characters like Qiyana that can nearly 1 shot adc’s without ulting (Cody talked about this in the video).

Redditors and others may not know exactly where this damage creep is coming from, and they wrongly place the blame on other things (such as rune reforged). My guess is because it’s a lot more obvious when you get hit by electrocute/dark harvest and die vs. no visual effect when you had old runes but still died. But the entire conversation is still about damage seemingly being higher.

So, while you are correct in saying “it isn’t runes reforged, here’s the math”, it doesn’t address what people are actually finding problematic. What would address it is “the damage creep isn’t runes reforged, it’s X Y and/or Z”. Alternatively, there may not be damage creep at all, though I don’t think this is the case.

Originally posted by mcasterix123

First, many players who were likely to face little magic damage early would take the scaling MR glyphs to handle mixed damage more effectively after the laning phase. Second, not only did champions get the compsenatory stat buffs, but they also gained more AD or AP through traits throughout S8 that S7 runes offered in the first place.

Also, it's worth noting a lot of the old masteries were very % based IE 3% more dmg to low enemies, 1-5% damage increase upon killing enemies etc. It meant that snowballing was only marginally increased and didn't amplify early leads as much/ make polarised lanes any more polarised.

Second, let's take a look at some of the runes with direct analogues. Electrocute: higher base damage and ratios than thunderlord's. Coup de grace: 8% against Merciless's 3%. Grasp: up from 3% health damage to 4%. What about L: Bloodlines/Ravenous Hunter as compared to Vampirism? Or Swiftness (a rune which required significant investment into the resolve tree) against L: Tenacity which every AD caster and their mum is taking. Bandit vs klepto, Natural talent vs absolute focus, expose weakness vs PTA, Waterwalking vs explorer, Precision vs Sudden impact etc.

And yes, I know some of these are more situational, but I'd argue they're not situational enough to warrant the differences in power.

How about my favourite comparison, Feast vs Taste of blood. Remember when healing a flat 20 hp every 20 seconds was considered too OP so they nerfed it. Twice. And now we have a rune that heals 18 hp + scales with AD and AP every 20 seconds. And that's fine.

Gee whiz it's almost like Riot knew damage was high and allowed healing to remain as a band aid through ToB, Ravenous, and Conqueror. You can see that on a couple of their most of their champions over the past two years. Just a couple y'know, like Aatrox, Irelia, and Akali. And Sylas. And Yuumi. And Pyke. And Senna. And Aphelios.

I know people can come out with some stupid shit on this subreddit, but for Pete's sake, stop acting like there's zero stimulus behind this.

Originally posted by tpst

I dont think many people would disagree with your logic, but i also think something is missing. The game has undeniably gone from 5D chess to a top-down call of duty.

Take lee sin, for example. Lee never used to be able to R-Q-Q people, it was always Q-R-Q to get the damage necessary for the Q execute. Now he just builds lethality and one shots non-tanks at most stages of the game, with little counterplay, where he used to fall off hard.

Naut and leo never used to kill ADCs in one rotation, now they do. somethings f**ky

Originally posted by josluivivgar

I think what it really boils down to, is that tank champions feel like they do more damage than they used to.

Im purposely using the word feel because before, design on tank usually favored dots over straight damage (think amumu w sejuani old aoe thing etc, shen poking with q).

Damage over time will always "feel" weaker even if the numbers are the same.

The thing is that now everything seems to have their damage front loaded and so it feels like there's more damage. (Stuff like aftershook help with that feeling, even if aftershock has a delay for the damage it's burst damage).

I don't know if damage is the same or not (and tankiness), but the feeling that tanks can burst you is very real

Originally posted by TheOmnivious

When they changed the rune system I remember that MR overall was nerfed to match the loss of Magic Penetration runes which were run on a fair number of champs. However, by reducing the overall MR of champions to compensate, it buffed champs that never ran Magic Penetration, such as Nautilus, Leona, etc. Any magic dealing champion was indirectly buffed.

That much is definitely true. However, Leona was compensated her more common Mark choice of +armor. Nautilus, who was compensated +ASpd, got substantially less +Armor.

Now THAT argument could be made, but is combated via the stat shards we have today and the %spell damage and penetration masteries of yesteryear that champions like Leona and Nautilus ran then.

For example, here's IgNar's infamous Fervor Leona rune/mastery page: https://i.imgur.com/fTMiN0u.png

I'd argue today's Leona damage output is weaker than that.

Originally posted by mcasterix123

First up, I get your point about runes needing to be ~50% more powerful to match up, but I'm not sure if the math adds up, or it's at least difficult to quantify. The only old non-keystone mastery I'd consider to have the same value as a rune like Perfect timing is maybe Insight. Inspiration in general is a mess.

Also, they don't carry the same restrictions as the S7 masteries, where the (arguably) more valuable masteries required more points to be invested (again, another advantage of L: Tenacity vs Swiftness).

This leads me into Feast and ToB. I don't really see how I'm ignoring history given I said exactly what happened to it in the patch notes.

Most champions running ToB tend to proc it very safely with ranged autos or abilities IE Kennen, Akali, and Aatrox, plus I'd say its harder to gauge its healing due to its ratios. It's ultimately just made the rune way stronger for those that can run it safely, and not necessarily worth it for anyone else.

My point is less that feast was somehow better designed or even well designed, but more that ToB is arguably stronger on some champions, harder to predict balance wise, and yet it hasn't seen any changes for 2 years. This indicates to me as a player, along with champion design, that they're happy with the amount of healing in the game because there was an increase in damage.

As for stat shards, I'd say it already happened for mages and assassins with S8 traits. Starting with 22 AP or 12 AD with Sorc/Dom Insp was pretty nutty.

Originally posted by InHaUse

Then the issue isn't in the runes, it's in the new champions and item changes.

Regardless the true source, damage needs to be nerfed across the board. Perhaps an easy solution would be to just increase base and per level armor and mr for everyone?

Originally posted by Rockm_Sockm

I love you Phreak but when this has been proven true, especially for adc's being instantly blown up, time and time again you cite math as a shield.

Riot also reduced adc base stats, and gutted shared xp two years in arrow. The non stop buffs to solo laners also impacted the game. Regardless how fed bot lane gets, they are down 2-3 levels at a minimum to a solo laner.

Damage is up in multiple positions and completely down in one. You can take personal shots at Codysun and say the math says otherwise all you want.

Originally posted by LeviZm

Now call me crazy, but IIRC league wasn't released until 2009..? Thats why we just had that 10 year anniversary..

Originally posted by falconstar3

Completely agree for level 1, Leona if she got on you at level 1 in the right matchup would solo you as an adc back in 2013. Now she waits until 2 everytime. Is there a Breakeven of where we're squishier now or that tanks are doing more damage now because of item scaling or something (maybe even just passives on items, less utility more damage these days - Zeke's for instance) Just curious

Originally posted by josluivivgar

I think leona is a great example of what I mean.

Leona in the past like you mention had more damage in the past and against squishier champs.

So why does she feel that she's stronger now?

Because of Aftershock, aftershock + her passive work nicely into frontloading all the damage at once.

Combine this with players overall being better at the game and being better at coodinating bursts and you got yourself the reason why things "feel" like they have more damage.

The damage might be the same or even less in the game but it "feels" like it's more because there's more damage being frontloaded instead of over time.

Granted that doesn't mean that that wasn't a thing in the past, champions like malphite are as old as time but always bursted you.

It just things like aftershock and the new sunfire and champions having their damage more frontloaded nowadays that makes the overall feel of league as more bursty.

I do wonder what riot's design teams stand on damage over time vs busts is.

Originally posted by bonly

You don't think naut/leo runes aren't boosting their damage?

Well, according to u.gg, the most common and winningest Leona rune page is:

Aftershock (25-120 damage +8% bonus HP), Font of Life (not damage), Bone Plating (not damage), Overgrowth (not damage), Biscuit Delivery (not damage), Cosmic Insight (not damage), +1-10% CDR based on level (not damage), +6 armor (not damage), and +15-90 Health based on level (not damage).

Meanwhile, this was Ignar's Leona page at Worlds 2017: https://i.imgur.com/fTMiN0u.png

You tell me.

Originally posted by InHaUse

Okay I'll agree that I'm not sure about the difference in tank support damage. I do remember release Thresh and how much damage he did.

I've been playing since season 1 and it just feels like everyone is doing more damage. I don't know if there's a way to quantify this, but looking at professional teamfights it looks like they are way more about burst and less about kiting and sustained damage.

Originally posted by tpst

which is the confusing part isn't it? if leona, on paper, does the least damage in her lifetime why is she currently one of the more contested - and complained about - supports? Obviously there's more complex variables than raw numbers on her kit, but it's interesting.

Originally posted by Dracoknight256

example, most mid laners ran CDR/level runes and so the Runes Reforged base stat changes actually made mages tankier against one another. To claim otherwise means you didn't actually look at pro rune pages and just regurgitated what other people said.

This here is the problem. You're talking about pro choices. Most people couldn't afford that many runes and just ran two generic pages which for example for botlane had flat armor yellows, MR/lvl or flat MR+Mr/lvl blues, AD bronze ones and quints based on preference for ad/as/armor/ms/pen when they were buying. I definitely do not have ~80 MR at level 18 on ADC like I did back then.

Another thing is you're talking about bases. All runes have some ratios. My question is: Does APC with electrocute do same damage at 20 minutes he did back then with TLD? I'm fairly sure the answer is NO, even if ratios remain the same.

Anyway, I was intrested so I googled. EC has 20 more base, 10%more bonus ad and 15% more ap ratios than thunderlord. Not only that, Mage items had their prices changed and shifted around with some having more AP than before. For example lost chapter went from 25 AP to 40 AP since Runes were introduced. That's why I'm almost 90% sure that TLD at 20 minutes back then did less damage than EC does rn at 20 minutes. Similar for other runes.

Originally posted by Totaltotemic

Meanwhile, Ezreal can still take +Armor +MR in his stat shards if he needs. Any AD Carry who cares can have substantially more baseline durability than three years ago.

What about the specific runes taken? Well sure, Aftershock and Cheap Shot exist, which do about 35 total damage in the early game. But it's not like you can't take Bone Plating or Nullifying Orb to negate the entirety of that bonus damage.

Do you think the perception that runes are more offensive now comes from people just not making these choices?

I know most ADCs in general these days run some kind of Precision keystone and then take Triumph (doesn't do anything if you're losing a fight) or Overheal (useless until you get some lifesteal), Legend: Bloodline (also useless until later), and then Coup de Gras (also pretty useless if you're losing a fight) so it's often like they just don't have a primary rune tree if someone goes aggressive on them. Then most people just go AS/AP in stats because it makes CSing so much easier.

It feels like such a gamble to go with anything defensive in bot lane because unless you punish the enemy hard for it, they'll just be so much stronger in later fights that they will kill your frontline first. Do you think it's actually worth making the choice to go defensive in runes, or does the current game state push people to go glass cannon?

Originally posted by Coolstorylucas

Damage is relative, every piece of damage over a threshold is useless. You may have lost more "damage" but that "damage" doesn't matter if you still hit the threshold needed to kill.

ADCs got GUTTED in resistances so looking at Leona's damage at when she was first presented is dishonest because you have to look at her damage relative to what she is killing.

Originally posted by tpst

But would you agree the game feels faster specifically time-to-kill?

I just used leona as an example, I don't personally have an issue with the state of bot lane. Ive been playing since s1, and I'm just not sure whether this feeling is based in truth, a result of systemic changes or whether people have simply optimised the game to a point where skill is higher and people are able to execute better, etc.

Originally posted by Ignisami

Just a thing: CDR is only ‘not damage’ when looking at a single rotation of skills. When looking at a specific timeframe CDR directly translates to damage (as long as it’s long enough to fit +1 skill uses).