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Here is the comment by Riot Beluga Whale

We have since pivotted from that messaging after doing some digging in the space during preseason work. Healing is a core and natural mechanic in League (and really in most games where units have health). Healing and play around it should be embraced and developed further rather than skirted away from. This includes easier to access GW (cheaper and more usable by most/all champs), in the same vein that you can buy armor to deal with physical damage - another core and natural mechanic in League.

In before next year this gets quoted as a "RIOT LIED TO US" when morello comes back from the great beyond to delete soraka we open our eyes to the truth of healing as the root of all evil

I don't want to sound salty, but this is the worst way to announce this. Whether you like or dislike the way healing is/will be handled, a random comment in a post that could be (and was) deleted is the worst way to reveal this decision to the playerbase.

PS.: Reposted to fix typo in the title

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about 4 years ago - /u/GreaterBelugaWhale - Direct link

Bit late here so this might get buried unfortunately

Theres a few issues with this I want to clarify

The original post I responded to was a straight accusation that we lied. That's ridiculous, when we talk about these things months in advance we always state that anything is subject to change pending further development. Perhaps we didn't communicate well enough here, or didn't think we needed to. But we gain nothing from lying, so random inflammatory post accusing us of such is kinda absurd.

This post runs in a similar vein but a bit less inflammatory. it still reads as a broad "You should be enraged now reddit!" alert that totally misrepresents the quote is referencing. In that quote, I state that our goal is not to reduce healing period, but to expand on the ways you can play around healing - including making GW stronger and more accessible to all champions. For example, Ignite is 60% GW instead of 50% now. This is a clarification that - hey we aren't removing healing, we are giving players ways to play around healing.

Now is the tuning perfect? Probably not - we are after all, buffing GW duration in 11.1 and nerfing Goredrinker. But its also a bit hard to tell, players tend to struggle a lot with itemization and we are still working on our system to help them out there. Its not surprising that people would fail to build GW or fail to apply the enhanced effect it given the tighter gameplay restrictions, whereas omnivamp is a exciting empowering effect that doesn't really require as many hoops to jump through. Basically ppl will take some time to learn to build Mortal Reminder early vs a Goredrinker+Hydra riven just like they will learn to build Zhonyas early vs an AD assassin.

Generally speaking, if you want your feedback heard, you don't really get anything from intentionally inflammatory posts that attack the character of the developers - you just get developers that don't want to help you. Given we've had some history of running into coordinated smear attacks, you also might just get ignored.

about 4 years ago - /u/GreaterBelugaWhale - Direct link

Originally posted by Hellioning

The only GW item that I could conceivably see someone failing to apply the enhanced effect is Mortal Reminder. If someone is taking Putrifier they presumably have a CC they want to hit on people, and everything else is basically passive; my 60% GW on targets below 50% isn't really something I can control.

Also, I have more than enough anecdotes of someone with goredrinker or a lifesteal item still healing stupid amounts even with GW on for me not to like it.

even simple gates like ccing enemies or hitting them when they are below half hp is a hoop to jump through that restricts efficiency some of the times. especially at 2 second GW duration

about 4 years ago - /u/GreaterBelugaWhale - Direct link

Originally posted by _rascal3717

Players often feel that they only get noticed by the developers if they get a bunch of attention from the community. OP had a point to make, but if he didn't rally people together and people didn't upvote his post then you would not have seen the post, much less replied to it. I don't think this guy was trying to attack you devs, but in the communities eyes there is a big lack of communication that needs to be fixed asap.

yeah for sure its a natural consequence of the power imbalance between a dev and any individual player. but its not always a productive course of action. sometimes you just gotta eat the cost a bit (both devs and players). id say a good baseline is not assuming the people who chose to spend most of their waking hours thinking about league are also out to destroy league with lies and doublespeak. (its mostly the lie accusation from the prior post that ruffled my jimmies here)

about 4 years ago - /u/GreaterBelugaWhale - Direct link

Originally posted by Macaulyn

Don't worry about not being seen, I added a link to your comment in the first post, so anyone that reads it will see it. I don't know/remember what was written in the post that you responded to (not this one, the previous one that was deleted), but I think perhaps you can try to see that person's point of view: the community had been told that healing was going to be reduced, but when this didn't happen, Riot didn't mention the change of plans. There have been many posts about the issue of excessive healing (I'll get to that soon) with no response from Riot, so it really feels like you wouldn't have said anything if that person had not been very harsh with their words. You can say that my post runs in a similar vein, but would you have tried to clarify anything or even responded if I had not worded it the way I did? I don't think you guys are setting out to ruin League, but you must understand that there is a huge power imbalance between player and dev team, multiple threads about this issue received no response.

Now, on to the issue of healing itself, I think you'll notice that most people are not talking about healing that comes from the likes of Soraka or Mundo, in fact, it seems that champions that have this type of healing in their kit are being completely ruined by Grievous Wounds, which means that its not healing as an effect that is an issue.

The main problem with healing is when it comes from an infinite source, like omnivamp and lifesteal. Champions like Yone and Yasuo, who have no healing in their kit are healing massive ammounts, sometimes healing through multiple enemy champion's damage and that is when they are still being affected by Grievous Wounds. Champions with high DPS that can stack a lot of omnivamp and/or lifesteal, are essentially becoming unkillable, while dealing massive damage and having high mobility. Buffing Grievous Wounds isn't the answer, because it will have the side effect of ruining champions like Soraka and Dr. Mundo.

I have dealt multiple times with situations in which a champion like Yone loses the laning phase, sometimes really hard, but comes back easily to the game, because he farmed enough to get his two lifesteal+crit items and/or got his assists to stack Ravenous Hunter. This basically invalidades champions that rely on poke as well as champions with limited burst, because if they don't kill someone like Yone immediatly, he will just heal it all back, even if its just from a minion wave, because he can lifesteal from any non-structure. Champions like Soraka at least have cooldowns and have to sacrifice mana (and health) to heal, while Yone has an infinite ammount because of his DPS.

And again, I need to specify that those omnivamp/lifesteal abusers are doing this while affected by Grievous Wounds, which means that the effect itself is doing little to contain them. I must also add that embracing healing and making Grievous Wounds a mandatory stat seems to go against the idea of variety in builds, because that means you'll always be forced to go for that one anti-heal item regardless of which build you intend to use.

Don't take my criticism personally, I don't think you guys are destroying the game like a lot of people say, but I do think there is a massive mistake in allowing healing to work as it is, and it angers me because it is affecting my games. Considering how easy said healing is to access and how its only would-be-counter cannot truly do so, it means that I lose any advantage I had over champions like Yone or Yasuo after winning against them, just because they sat back and farmed to get a massive power spike in two items. And I'm not the first one to say this, you'll see comments about the likes of Yone, Aatrox and Rhaast in all threads complaining about healing.

But from my perspective we haven't really done a major shift in our direction. these points about goredrinker or yone building 2 lifesteal items and ravenous hunter are all just tuning points. Yeah I happily concede that the game is in a worse tuning state now than it was this summer. That'll just take some time to work out. With so many items, yone building 2 lifesteal items should be paying a price in other ways with other items he isn't building - and if thats not the case it'll get adjusted.

Similarly, Mundo and Raka are definitely down quite a bit right now - that's fine we can buff their healing

And if we need something in addition to GW, or it needs more buffs, we can work on that too later.

This isn't any different than normal balance work, so I don't expect us to announce it beyond actual projected work.

about 4 years ago - /u/GreaterBelugaWhale - Direct link

Originally posted by Roffet

hey can we stop dancing around the real issue of all this discussion please? what is the internal POV on Ravenous Hunter atm? is it not paradigm-changing to add that much omnivamp onto kits not designed around them?

winrate wise is fine but pick rate is high iirc, but we are in the middle of our holiday break. Not that surprising pick rate would be higher since it was broadened intentionally.

about 4 years ago - /u/GreaterBelugaWhale - Direct link

Originally posted by SeizeTheKills

To me, and I might obviously be entirely wrong, it would seem then that the main offenders are Shieldbow and Bloodthirster and not so much the rune, but that may be aggravating matters.

But shield bow giving both healing and crit and a shield and bloodthirster giving heailng and also crit it would seem to me that these items offer to much of what champions that can use crit wel, like yasuo and yone, want for to little of a trade off.

To me it seems like a reverse case of old steraks, back then steraks got changed because ranged champions were abusing an item designed for melee, with shield bow it seems like melee carries are abusing an item that was designed to make ranged ad carries less squishy.

yep adding sustain to lots of champs first item is something we'll probably have lots of discussions about next year

about 4 years ago - /u/GreaterBelugaWhale - Direct link

Originally posted by Macaulyn

If this isn't different than any other balance work, then I must question why, despite many complains from the community, we're only seeing a nerf to Goredrinker and ignoring the champions that don't use it. Because, again, this has been a problem since the pre-season started and people have complained about it for a while. If you say that it will get adjusted, I'll wait for it to happen, but if these issues aren't sorted out, then the same thing will happen again.

because we look at more than just reddit

about 4 years ago - /u/GreaterBelugaWhale - Direct link

Originally posted by Zoli_Ben

Hey kinda off topic to this, but according to the wikia you have been responsible for the Garen mini-rework with CatchesAxes; currently the mythic AS passives from Trinity Force and Kraken Slayer do not grant him more spins for E currently, it might be a reason why his % statistics are so down on Triforce.

yeah i plan on fixing that, but haven't gotten to it