Original Post — Direct link

"So he's a river demon who makes deals"

  • "What kind of deals?"

"Oh you know - the demon kind. Like he makes a deal and it has a price to be paid"

  • "yeah but what's the price"

"oh-ho-ho it's a high price indeed"

  • "Yes... but what is it?"

"Well it's not the price anyone would agree to if they knew it going in"

  • "Okay, yeah, I get the concept Deal with the Devil, TV Tropes, I know. But what actually happens"

"Well, he sates his appetite"

  • "So he eats them?"

"oooh old tahm kench hungers for more than just flesh"

  • "So... what, he eats the irony? What does he actually get from their end of the deal?"

"Just you wait, you'll see... what happens to people who let Tahm in"

  • "In where? Is he eating them or is he, now, possessing them?"

"Oh believe me, Tahm has a voracious appetite"

  • "So he DOES eat them"

"Only if they agree to step inside his mouth and the abyss within"

  • "Okay great, so he does eat them. Moving O--"

"Yes, and he takes them to where they dare not dream to go"

  • "Wait... so eating them is how he fulfils HIS part of the deal, what's their part then?"

"Everyone ends downriver... eventually"

  • "Literally - what does that even mean."
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over 4 years ago - /u/WAAAARGHbobo - Direct link

Yeah... he was not the easiest character to pitch to our department heads and owners. (Though our PO Omar was onboard really quick) But actually a lot of Tahm's theming and personality was me trying to find a middle-ground between what Game design (The talented Daniel Klein) was leaning towards (an evil demon that eats you) and what Concept Art (The talented Chris Campbell) was leaning towards (a comedic big mouth character). While Chris got the basic image down (which Gem Lim then polished) I began wandering around the office doing the voice and accent with the catch phrase. "Now, I would hate be loquacious in my preambulatory..." while writing short stories. And Chris saw the character was more fun with an undercurrent of threat, while Daniel saw he could have the demon he wanted with comedy... while he was also realizing Tahm could be fun with an ally consume. (Which we called his APC ability at the time). And then it all sorta jelled. (Excluding a long fought battle to let Tahm keep his tiny hat and accent.). Tahm was hard, but imho Tahm is a success story of collaboration. He's what happens when a team of creative people all find creative solutions to make something that appeals to the whole team.

over 4 years ago - /u/WAAAARGHbobo - Direct link

Originally posted by WAAAARGHbobo

Yeah... he was not the easiest character to pitch to our department heads and owners. (Though our PO Omar was onboard really quick) But actually a lot of Tahm's theming and personality was me trying to find a middle-ground between what Game design (The talented Daniel Klein) was leaning towards (an evil demon that eats you) and what Concept Art (The talented Chris Campbell) was leaning towards (a comedic big mouth character). While Chris got the basic image down (which Gem Lim then polished) I began wandering around the office doing the voice and accent with the catch phrase. "Now, I would hate be loquacious in my preambulatory..." while writing short stories. And Chris saw the character was more fun with an undercurrent of threat, while Daniel saw he could have the demon he wanted with comedy... while he was also realizing Tahm could be fun with an ally consume. (Which we called his APC ability at the time). And then it all sorta jelled. (Excluding a long fought battle to let Tahm keep his tiny hat and accent.). Tahm was hard, but imho Tahm is a success story of collaboration. He's what happens when a team of creative people all find creative solutions to make something that appeals to the whole team.

AS a side note... hopefully at some point balance team will solve how to power limit/gate his ally consume. (personally I always thought he should have to eat an enemy to "reload" eating an ally again --in addition to the cooldown) But whatever I'm not a GDesigner.

over 4 years ago - /u/AzuBK - Direct link

Originally posted by Cyberplums

Love these kinds of design stories, thank you!

If I may ask, is the live balance team usually greatly concerned with keeping a champion’s original theme intact during gameplay, or are practical solutions for balance way more of a priority for them?

As someone who used to work on that team, and still works closely with them—theme is definitely a consideration. The team always tries to keep theme intact (or even enhance it where possible), though the work is often all about trade-offs in the end because no balance change is going to be perfect and they all cost something to someone.

I will say that if any change is going to more severely undercut theme, the mandate will often be to find another way to get the job done, because theme is clearly an important part of our champions.

over 4 years ago - /u/WAAAARGHbobo - Direct link

Originally posted by Spideraxe30

Do you remember how you came up with the title of River King

Not exactly. I think both that title and Two Coats came out of a story sketch I wrote. (A story sketch is a idea I came up with while on champ team, which was writing short stories during development to illustrate a possible personality and possible theming to the team... and to hopefully create alignment. I called them "Story Sketches" to highlight their impermanence and their non-directive nature. I.e. to clarify it was a type concept art... (but with words instead of lines.). But because I wrote so many of those story sketches --they all kinda bleed together in my head. ( I think I wrote somewhere between 16 and 18 short stories just for Tahm.) I do remember the name Tahm came from Matt Dunn. (who apparently has a friend named that).

over 4 years ago - /u/AzuBK - Direct link

Originally posted by Polderjoch

Thanks for sharing, it's always super interesting to hear about the development and future of champs in the background.

I feel like the only champs I can think of that really lost a big part of their thematic are Aatrox with his revive, and Illaoi lost part of her thematic with the removal of being able to fight back against her spirit pull, even though gameplay wise it's not really a big deal.

Yeah, the Aatrox removal was not taken lightly. In cases like that, it's a bit easier to see looking back but a lot of their troubled post-release development comes from a dedication to preserving the cool things that make each champ unique. Sometimes, though, the right call in the end is to make the cut (I would argue that Aatrox ended up being one of these cases). If a champion is hewing really close to their thematic pillars but is inaccessible to most of the players who would enjoy that theme because of balance, we're still unfortunately failing to deliver that theme properly to players.

over 4 years ago - /u/WAAAARGHbobo - Direct link

Originally posted by DanielZKlein

I miss you Odin!

And I remember our save the hat campaign :D

Aw dude, I miss you too! I loved working with you. I remember getting drunk with you and walking home from... that-bar-rioters-go-to (I won't name it on reddit) whenever I go there.

over 4 years ago - /u/WAAAARGHbobo - Direct link

Originally posted by randomguy301048

so you were walking around doing the tahm voice and saying catch phrases? was it anything like this but with tahm instead of brolaf?

Uh... Hopefully I was a better actor than that. Donno I can't see myself.

over 4 years ago - /u/WAAAARGHbobo - Direct link

Originally posted by Goredrak

Probably too late to the party but why was the voice a fight? A deep American South drawl a la Foghorn Leghorn (minus the SI) mixed with a Bayou dandy is a pretty original concept for a champs voice. Was it a localization issue?

Yes. But more for leadership needlessly worrying about stuff. I had to make a powerpoint deck, pointing out that I had done my research beforehand and themed him as "rural crossroads demon" (his real archetype) knowing it was a multi-cultural-- a true universal jungian-- myth. Then... eventually he was okayed and we left it to the various localization teams to figure out how to go about localizing his dialog, accent etc....