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This champion is permanently meta in pro since her release. And not just meta, overbearingly present.

The only time she wasn't was when Riot hardnerfed her before Worlds (because they realised she was unfair I guess). They buffed her back up and she's been pro meta again ever since.

I am just so sick of that champion at this point. The fact that she's also almost always paired with champions like the cat (pre-nerf) and Lulu also means the games become very slow and boring.

And also can I just say that it feels straight up unfair seeing a Zeri go like 1v4 and the enemy team has to run away.

This feels like another champion that can't be balanced in solo queue without being permanently present in pro games...

What do you guys think?

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about 1 year ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Hi, so I've personally been very involved in not nerfing her. Here's why:

We're in one of the more diverse metagames right now. Outside of specific points in time, (Ashe Support until 13.5, Lucian during 13.1, Caitlyn during 13.3, Annie during 13.4) there haven't been any bot laners over 80% presence. That's really good. Compared to some previous tournaments, we have about as many bot laners (ADCs) with 10%+ presence on every single patch as Worlds had last year, which was generally regarded as a high point for diversity. We have had no 100% pick/ban ADCs at any point either, which also trumps MSI 2022. So while Zeri has been a fixture of bottom lane for sure, she's almost never been the dominant option and has never been so strong that both teams vie for her every game. That said, she has finally crossed 80% for the first time during 13.5.

I'm pretty against playing whack-a-mole with the pro meta during the regular season. Two primary reasons:

We get to see players shift priorities as time goes on. This is pretty evident with the rise of champions like Gragas despite no changes and other priorities across roles. Turns out we're not really in a marksman support meta, it's just that people played Caitlyn and Kalista there once in a while. With no changes, Karma has dropped off heavily in priority. Why was Xayah sitting at 10% presence across all of 13.1, 13.1b, and 13.3? Why did it take until 13.4 for pro players to realize she was so strong?

It also risks creating one of those 100% presence champions out of thin air. There's no Varus complaint right now, but there were times he was the obvious #2. What happens if Zeri got nerfed in those patches? Is he just the automatic go-to?

Right now, a lot of ADCs have really close presence outside of Zeri. For the first time, she actually stands far above the rest of the crew and is thus a reasonable nerf candidate. But this is, IMO, the first patch of pro play where it's made sense to nerf her. And even still, 13.6 nerfed her most common pro builds: Lethal Tempo, Quickblades (61% pickrate), and Bloodthirster (45% pickrate) are all nerfed. So even then the question is, "Will pros change their behavior at all in the face of three direct nerfs?" I'm betting no.

about 1 year ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by NepTheNap

You mean Lucian Nami or Jinx Lulu? The only other botlanes ever played the last year and this year?

Botlane meta is f**king atrocious and toxic altogether

Lucian and Jinx are both below Aphelios and Xayah in pick rate and presence across 13.5 in top leagues.

Y'all can't even recite objectively measurable data correctly.

about 1 year ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by naian616

yeah zeri needs to go, but lucian nami has been meta much much longer than zeri, and remains pick/ban since last yr....

Lucian has 41% presence in top leagues on 13.5. It was sub-50% in 13.4, too.

So by pick/ban do you mean "exists in champion select"? Because I think that's a good thing for Lucian. Do you mean 80%+ presence? Cuz that's not even close to true.

about 1 year ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by gaenakyrivi

please tell me you have changes for karma lined up. she has a similar winrate to lulu who was target nerfed, yet karma hasn’t been nerfed in like 2 years. she feels pretty weak into the now tank support meta. and as you said, isn’t pro dominant right now. she just needs a little love for her mid to late game, as any buff to her early would make her pro skewed again.

We're not in a tank support meta. Support prio in 13.5 top regions:

  1. Rakan
  2. Annie
  3. Lulu
  4. Nautilus
  5. Thresh
  6. Renata

Tanks are simply viable.

about 1 year ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by patmax17

Thanks for the insight. Is the global data, or western only? Seems like she's more present in the west than in the east

Zeri's highest presence league (among the top 4) is LPL. Her lowest is LEC.

I typically measure LCK-LPL-LEC-LCS for pro trends. If done without weighting, this mostly measures LCK-LPL due to how many more games they play, but they're also the strongest leagues. If LPL and LCK ever agree on something, that champion just shoots to the moon, especially since other pro players around the world largely look to those leagues for inspiration (read: copying).

about 1 year ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by tacocat_ao

Not saying I disagree, but presence isn’t the only stat worth tracking. Certain champs struggle to be played because of the strength of picks like Lucian. Without getting picked or ban, the threat of it still impacts draft.

I mean we're in a metagame where ADC/support is picked 1-3 very frequently. The second that red team picks Lulu/Zeri or Thresh/Aphelios on 1-2, blue team knows that they're not facing Lucian.

This is not a rare occurrence.

about 1 year ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by Spideraxe30

Hey Phreak, might want to change your reddit description, it still says your a shoutcaster on mobile

I like to lie to people who use phones. Tablets, too.

about 1 year ago - /u/PhreakRiot - Direct link

Originally posted by GalacticPork

So does this mean the Zeri nerfs for 13.7 are also being pulled?

Depends. You on mobile right now? Yeah, Zeri nerfs are getting pulled.

For all my desktop homies, she's getting nerfed.