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[2022] PBE Bugs & Feedback Thread - Olaf Mid Scope Update


over 2 years ago - /u/RiotAxes - Direct link

The Olaf mid scope update is coming to PBE today with an intended ship date of patch 12.9 (not 12.8). Putting him up early for feedback, so he should be on PBE for about a week, and then he’ll disappear as we prep patch 12.8. He’ll return to PBE when we kick off the 12.9 cycle.

Before getting into the actual changes, let’s talk goals. One common response to the initial announcement was confusion as to why he’d be next up on the list for an update.

Olaf has a number of urgent issues we’re looking to address. First, he is (and has consistently been) the least deeply played champion in League—on average, that is (Olaf one tricks don’t @ me.) If Olaf is a champion you play, he probably makes up the lowest percent of your games played, and has consistently been among the lowest for many years now. Second, he’s a deeply pro-bound champion: his win rate is kept lower than would otherwise be ideal because he tends to take over pro play when his kit is tuned to win games in Solo Queue. And third, he’s been deeply impacted by systems changes this season, even more so than other fighters, putting him in particularly bad shape with the current item system.

With these problems in mind, the goals for this update are to add significant excitement to his kit, remove a bit of pro-oriented power (reduce how easily he escapes dangerous situations with his R as well as curb how fast his jungle clear can get when perfectly optimized.) Lastly, this update should help him use Juggernaut items effectively to scale better than before, which should also make him more resilient to future systems changes. For lanes, we’re aiming to preserve his ability to Jungle (while making it more accessible) while significantly increasing his viability in Top Lane.

The changes as of now are:

Base Stats

  • Attack Damage :: 68 (+3.5/level), 127.5 at level 18 >>> 68 (+4.7/level), 148 at level 18
  • Health :: 575 (+100/level), 2275 at level 18 >>> 575 (+105/level), 2360 at level 18
  • Mana :: 316 (+42/level), 1030 at level 18 >>> 316 (+60/level), 1336 at level 18

Passive - Berserker Rage

  • Calculation reworked to grant max effectiveness at or below 30% health
  • Maximum Attack Speed granted :: 99% >>> 40-100% (levels 1-18)
  • [NEW] Now gives up to 12-35% life steal (levels 1-18), based on Olaf's missing health

Q - Undertow

  • [NEW] - Shreds 25/27.5/30/32.5/35% armor for 4 seconds on champion hit
  • Damage :: 80/125/170/215/260 >>> 60/110/160/210/260
  • Minimum Range :: Approximately 300 >>> 425
  • Mana Cost :: 60 at all ranks >>> 40/45/50/55/60
  • Cooldown :: 7 seconds >>> 8 seconds
  • Cooldown refund on axe pickup :: 4.5 seconds >>> 5 seconds

W - Vicious Strikes [REWORKED]

  • (ability may be renamed)
  • [NEW] Resets Olaf’s basic attack
  • [NEW] Olaf gains 70/115/160/205/250 (+25% of Olaf’s missing health) as a shield for 2.5 seconds
  • [REMOVED] No longer grants Life Steal
  • [REMOVED] No longer amplifies Olaf’s healing based on missing health
  • Attack Speed :: 50/60/70/80/90% for 6 seconds >>> 40/50/60/70/80% for 4 seconds
  • Cooldown :: 16 seconds at all ranks>>> 16/14.5/13/11.5/10 seconds

R - Ragnarok

  • [NEW] Hitting a champion with a basic attack or E - Reckless Swing extends the duration of Ragnarok to 2.5 seconds. Olaf can refresh Ragnarok indefinitely.
  • Duration :: 6 seconds >>> 3 seconds
  • [REMOVED] R - Ragnarok's passive's bonus resistances are no longer lost for the duration of the cast

UPDATE 4/13

Tl;dr Olaf OP. Trimming some power.

W - Vicious Strikes

Early durability problematically too high, especially in the jungle

  • Base Shield :: 70/115/160/205/250 >>> 10/45/80/115/150
  • Missing health component now caps out at 30% remaining HP

R - Ragnarok

Tuning down passive resists now that he never has to lose them, and tuning down active AD bonus now that he has more base AD in the first place

  • Passive Resists :: 20/30/40 >>> 10/25/40
  • AD Bonus :: 15/20/25 (+30% AD) >>> 10/20/30 (+25% AD)

UPDATE 4/18

Trimming some top lane power and some tank shredding power.

Base Stats

Mana is meant to be less difficult to manage in lane now, but it goes way too far at the current numbers

  • Mana per level :: 60 >>> 50
  • Note that this is still increased from Live, where it's 42

Passive - Berserker Rage

  • Lifesteal cap :: 12-35% (by level) >>> 10-30% (by level)

Q - Undertow

It's a little too easy to ignore picking up axes in lane right now, and he's dealing with tanks too effectively

  • Cooldown :: 8 seconds >>> 9 seconds
  • Note that the minimum cooldown on axe pickup is unchanged
  • Armor Shred :: 25/27.5/30/32.5/35% >>> 20/22.5/25/27.5/30%
External link →
over 2 years ago - /u/RiotAxes - Direct link

The Olaf mid scope update is coming to PBE today with an intended ship date of patch 12.9 (not 12.8). Putting him up early for feedback, so he should be on PBE for about a week, and then he’ll disappear as we prep patch 12.8. He’ll return to PBE when we kick off the 12.9 cycle.

Before getting into the actual changes, let’s talk goals. One common response to the initial announcement was confusion as to why he’d be next up on the list for an update.

Olaf has a number of urgent issues we’re looking to address. First, he is (and has consistently been) the least deeply played champion in League—on average, that is (Olaf one tricks don’t @ me.) If Olaf is a champion you play, he probably makes up the lowest percent of your games played, and has consistently been among the lowest for many years now. Second, he’s a deeply pro-bound champion: his win rate is kept lower than would otherwise be ideal because he tends to take over pro play when his kit is tuned to win games in Solo Queue. And third, he’s been deeply impacted by systems changes this season, even more so than other fighters, putting him in particularly bad shape with the current item system.

With these problems in mind, the goals for this update are to add significant excitement to his kit, remove a bit of pro-oriented power (reduce how easily he escapes dangerous situations with his R as well as curb how fast his jungle clear can get when perfectly optimized.) Lastly, this update should help him use Juggernaut items effectively to scale better than before, which should also make him more resilient to future systems changes. For lanes, we’re aiming to preserve his ability to Jungle (while making it more accessible) while significantly increasing his viability in Top Lane.

The changes as of now are:

Base Stats

  • Attack Damage :: 68 (+3.5/level), 127.5 at level 18 >>> 68 (+4.7/level), 148 at level 18
  • Health :: 575 (+100/level), 2275 at level 18 >>> 575 (+105/level), 2360 at level 18
  • Mana :: 316 (+42/level), 1030 at level 18 >>> 316 (+60/level), 1336 at level 18

Passive - Berserker Rage

  • Calculation reworked to grant max effectiveness at or below 30% health
  • Maximum Attack Speed granted :: 99% >>> 40-100% (levels 1-18)
  • [NEW] Now gives up to 12-35% life steal (levels 1-18), based on Olaf's missing health

Q - Undertow

  • [NEW] - Shreds 25/27.5/30/32.5/35% armor for 4 seconds on champion hit
  • Damage :: 80/125/170/215/260 >>> 60/110/160/210/260
  • Minimum Range :: Approximately 300 >>> 425
  • Mana Cost :: 60 at all ranks >>> 40/45/50/55/60
  • Cooldown :: 7 seconds >>> 8 seconds
  • Cooldown refund on axe pickup :: 4.5 seconds >>> 5 seconds

W - Vicious Strikes [REWORKED]

  • (ability may be renamed)
  • [NEW] Resets Olaf’s basic attack
  • [NEW] Olaf gains 70/115/160/205/250 (+25% of Olaf’s missing health) as a shield for 2.5 seconds
  • [REMOVED] No longer grants Life Steal
  • [REMOVED] No longer amplifies Olaf’s healing based on missing health
  • Attack Speed :: 50/60/70/80/90% for 6 seconds >>> 40/50/60/70/80% for 4 seconds
  • Cooldown :: 16 seconds at all ranks>>> 16/14.5/13/11.5/10 seconds

R - Ragnarok

  • [NEW] Hitting a champion with a basic attack or E - Reckless Swing extends the duration of Ragnarok to 2.5 seconds. Olaf can refresh Ragnarok indefinitely.
  • Duration :: 6 seconds >>> 3 seconds
  • [REMOVED] R - Ragnarok's passive's bonus resistances are no longer lost for the duration of the cast

UPDATE 4/13

Tl;dr Olaf OP. Trimming some power.

W - Vicious Strikes

Early durability problematically too high, especially in the jungle

  • Base Shield :: 70/115/160/205/250 >>> 10/45/80/115/150
  • Missing health component now caps out at 30% remaining HP

R - Ragnarok

Tuning down passive resists now that he never has to lose them, and tuning down active AD bonus now that he has more base AD in the first place

  • Passive Resists :: 20/30/40 >>> 10/25/40
  • AD Bonus :: 15/20/25 (+30% AD) >>> 10/20/30 (+25% AD)

UPDATE 4/18

Trimming some top lane power and some tank shredding power.

Base Stats

Mana is meant to be less difficult to manage in lane now, but it goes way too far at the current numbers

  • Mana per level :: 60 >>> 50
  • Note that this is still increased from Live, where it's 42

Passive - Berserker Rage

  • Lifesteal cap :: 12-35% (by level) >>> 10-30% (by level)

Q - Undertow

It's a little too easy to ignore picking up axes in lane right now, and he's dealing with tanks too effectively

  • Cooldown :: 8 seconds >>> 9 seconds
  • Note that the minimum cooldown on axe pickup is unchanged
  • Armor Shred :: 25/27.5/30/32.5/35% >>> 20/22.5/25/27.5/30%
External link →
over 2 years ago - /u/RiotAxes - Direct link

Originally posted by bz6

/u/RiotAxes

Hey boss. I have a more holistic angle when it comes to my questions regarding these changes.

Directionally, I was always under the impression that Olaf is not a great scaler into the later game. Do you feel these changes go against that scaling profile?

That being said, what is the stance of the team when it comes to potentially homogenising scaling identities across the board? Personally I think it goes against what LoL stands for and greatly reduces aspect of the game like strategy, team comps, and sharp champion identity.

From our playtesting, he's less bad late game, but still not very good (even for a Juggernaut) - contrast his teamfight power to Sett, Darius, or Illaoi, for example.

Right now I don't think we have a strong stance about it. We aren't trying to homogenize it, but we aren't resisting it too strongly - it's more about what is right for a particular champion. If we go very far towards homogenization, then we'd need to deal with that, but we still do shotcall things like a very extreme late game curve for Gwen, and some of our other midscopes in flight aren't moderating scaling curves like this one is.

over 2 years ago - /u/RiotAxes - Direct link

Originally posted by Spideraxe30

Changes look really cool, could I ask why you guys decide to make his durability less sustain bound, was it because he was just too stat checky with it

The R change reduces his free access to diving targets (it can go infinite - but if you're being kited around, it won't). If he's not as guaranteed to be able to dive the back line successfully, he needs his alternate game plan to be better, which means the tools to not just auto-lose fights on the front line.

over 2 years ago - /u/RiotAxes - Direct link

Originally posted by WeAzSoRya

Multiseason challenger olaf one trick here, i really love these changes, making him more tanky by making him keep his resists in a meta where there is so much damage is a good change. Especially in duels, a lot of the time you didnt press R just because it felt like it would just make you weaker by reducing your resists and removing the toxic part of his W that enhanced the healing and replacing it by other sustain tools is a GREAT change, allowing him to scale in the late game with armor shred is super great. But what's the idea behind increasing the minimum range on his Q ?

Ah, that one's kind of subtle.

So, if I'm going to give you the possibility of infinitely being immune to crowd control, that is very likely to result in situations where the fight is a perfect stat check - able to be calculated in advance - for opponents who can't dash away to break contact. The min range change exists so that Olaf has to forecast his position a little bit in advance, essentially adding counterplay because when he throws Q, if you move away from the Q, he has to choose whether to pick it up or not, and that choice has real consequences to the outcome of the fight from that point on. (Incidentally, part of the reason for adding armor shred on Q is to ensure that picking up the axe really matters to whether he wins the fight or not - don't want him just ignoring it)

I realize it's going to feel bad, but if I reverted it I think I'd also have to cap the ult at 7 seconds or something like that :/

EDIT: This is mainly talking about melee vs melee duels. In other contexts, it wouldn't really be necessary. But there are a lot of melee vs melee duels for junglers and top laners.

over 2 years ago - /u/RiotAxes - Direct link

Originally posted by ImBuGs

Numbers look a bit overtuned but overall solid stuff

Just to speak to the tuning -

It's fully possible he's overtuned and if he is, he'll get nerfed (though its very unlikely we'd be able to discover this on PBE, where games are so wildly uneven). This update has enough change that it's just hard to forecast.

I will note that if we didn't have concerns about what he does in pro play, we would buff him substantially tomorrow. This iteration of the champion's clear speed is significantly slower than on Live (still fast, but much slower), which is a significant pro play impact, and while his R is way cooler scrapping in melee against other melee champions, he'll be both more kiteable when diving ADCs and less able to run away, both of which ought to be important for pro players.

The bet is that this frees us up for really significant buffs at every other skill level. That bet could fail - if it turns out he's still the priority pro jungler when tuned to reasonable winrates then we're in trouble - but I feel it's a bet worth making.

over 2 years ago - /u/RiotAxes - Direct link

Originally posted by Spideraxe30

Could I also ask if it is intentional that his R is capped at 2.5 seconds at extension, since that kinda reduces the fantasy of a potentially infinite R

100% intentional. A very long R is meant to be a rare, when-the-stars-align kind of situation.

We have specifically been testing to ensure that he has R casts that are shorter, similar, and longer than his live duration, and that decisions made by both Olaf and his opponents determine how it turns out.

over 2 years ago - /u/RiotAxes - Direct link

Originally posted by Dawnbringer_Fortune

This rioter is officially my favourite. Excellent changes. Thank you so much Riot Axes. Imagine if his playrate increases again because of this! Also do you know if Sivir will be getting an adjustment? u/RiotAxes

No news on Sivir, sorry.

over 2 years ago - /u/RiotAxes - Direct link

Originally posted by sonebrm

I have a pretty simple question I hope you will be able to answer. I want you to know it isn't loaded or anything and I am just doing it out of pure curiosity. Why haven't you focused on changing "problematic" champions for you yet? I am talking about Azir or Kalista here, just to give you an example. They are the way they are because of the fact they are way too oppressive in competitive setting so why haven't you tried shifting them towards the general playerbase instead? In Kalista's case, I find it super bizarre that she is the only character that deals 90% of their damage at all times. It just feels silly.

So the goal for the mid scope champion updates as a whole is to serve players of that champion, which means we're going to be pretty hesitant to do things that make players of those champions sad (we will not always get it right - but that's what we're trying to do with them).

Like, we might be able to let Kalista have a 1.0 AD ratio on her basic attack again and have all her spells feel good, but if it means we have to make her dash windowed instead of a passive, is it worth it to Kalista players? If we have to delete Azir's dash entirely, is that worth it to Azir players?

There's certainly some simple cleanup we can do on Kalista and Azir and they both are candidates for mid scopes at some point, but it's going to be really hard to solve the things that make them 'problematic' with these tactics.

(And please don't ask me about Ryze...)

over 2 years ago - /u/RiotAxes - Direct link

Originally posted by raphelmadeira

This is a feedback post, I will give my feedback about Olaf's shield here even though I know that nothing will be changed.

Visually speaking, this circular shield looks very strange, and out of the place. I know it's the easiest and most practical solution, but with so many circular champions/items shields within League, Olaf could be given a more unique shape.

The blame for this strangeness comes a lot from Olaf's silhouette. Olaf's stance in the game is very hunched forward; the axes are outside the shield; there is a lot of shield-free area behind Olaf; That is, it is visible that this shield does not belong to Olaf\*.

You guys could see the possibility of changing this VFX to look something like an aura shield-like Sejuani-Bristle (Fury of the North), Malphite (Granite Shield), and Olaf himself in his ultimate (Ragnarok), but instead of this shield being "glued" to Olaf's body as in the examples cited, Olaf's shield could visually function as an "electrical aura" coming out of his body. Contouring Olaf's body using his silhouette with 2 times (maybe 3 times) the size outside the body, thus giving an impression of protection/shield, as if his body was protected by a shield of electrical rays.

*Olaf's shield in-game:

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQKzjPiWYAklNNh?format=png&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQK0BCKXoAIHtLS?format=png&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQK0b_TWQA8mz-6?format=png&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQK08ffXIAsh46g?format=png&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQK1i_IWUAgGGvC?format=png&name=large

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FQK17dQX0AgsCrr?format=png&name=large

https://youtu.be/r1aUYy-djuY

Passing this to the artists. Not sure whether they're going to change anything, but they'll see it.

over 2 years ago - /u/RiotAxes - Direct link

Originally posted by raphelmadeira

Thank you very much for your time u/RiotAxes! I just played with Zilean and found a nice example of aura VFX that I was trying to say with words earlier. Zilean's E (Time Warp) creates exactly that "enlarged" aura effect giving volume to Zilean's body, but in Zilean's case it's not a shield, but a speed buff:

https://youtu.be/UfV8QEJ-Lw8?t=99

From the VFX artist - that approach is generally cool but won't play nice with his R. If we were redoing the champion more comprehensively as a VGU (which he still needs imo, but he's not going to be in the next few), we could probably find a better overall solution.

over 2 years ago - /u/RiotAxes - Direct link

Originally posted by bz6

Good. I like that stance.

Something that really scares me about the team when they make changes to champions is the siphoning of skill expression. Removing mechanics from champions especially ones aimed to ‘dumb’ them down, really are anti ethical to the design pillars of League. There was a dev blog when Scruffy was on the team about balancing new champions for the longer term. And in that article there is an emphasis of the team avoiding the removal mechanics. But when I see sylas e-Q and Akali e-Q removal, I ask myself, why even publish articles like these? Where’s the accountability?

/u/RiotAxes

I ask myself, why even publish articles like these? Where’s the accountability?

This just really stresses how important it is for us to get our new champion and VGU launches right. I don't believe we can make Ryze players happy - we're either going to have to seriously rework him, which will make some of them very sad (every update makes some players sad) or we're going to have to leave him quite weak for solo queue.

We're not infallible (I know you know this, but we know it too), we're going to mess a release up again, and the follow-up to one of those mistakes at some point is going to be that we have to strip out mechanics or 'dumb down' a champion. We have a principled belief that this should be a last resort, but we're going to need that last resort again sooner or later.

over 2 years ago - /u/RiotAxes - Direct link

Originally posted by Spideraxe30

I just saw that you added some nerfs to him, outside of his current balance, could I ask for your thoughts on adding some more ghosting to Olaf since its a bit annoying to get minion blocked trying to pick up his axes, iirc he's only ghosted vs monsters

Is this feedback based on your PBE experience or based on live? I did tweak it actually.

over 2 years ago - /u/RiotAxes - Direct link

Originally posted by Spideraxe30

Live, wasn’t aware you tweaked in on PBE. Would you have the details on that since it isn’t in the main post

"Should feel better" is about as far as it goes. It's a bit of black magic stuff.

over 2 years ago - /u/RiotAxes - Direct link

Originally posted by Spideraxe30

After testing on PBE and comparing it to live, it definitely does feel more consistent vs monsters (on live it appears to only sometimes~ ghost), would it be possible to add it minions and champs however, or would that be a bit too abusive in lane?

Its abusive in a really low key way. We don't generally want to ghost champions in PvP situations when we can help it, or at least if we do, it's a lot of hidden/unappreciable power and we have to balance accordingly.

over 2 years ago - /u/RiotAxes - Direct link

Originally posted by AttentionFun6779

I think it is best to weaken the armor of Q, 25-35, change it to 15-30, the basic shield of W should still be weakened, but delete the 30% remaining HP cap, which is very reasonable, because Olaf It's not the damage that's missing, it's the toughness.

Right now the internal perception is I don't need further nerfs (big caveat we are still actively testing for balance on him, so that could change quite quickly), but the amount of armor shred on Q is very high on my list of things I'd nerf next if he does need more, for what it's worth.

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