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This is the first time Zoe has been buffed since 9.18. That is all.
This is the first time Zoe has been buffed since 9.18. That is all.
Does this change also mean that Titanic Hydra does less damage TO towers as well? Because on live it's quite a boost to hurting towers when the passive isn't forcing aggro on you.
It should just be the cleave AoE that's removed. The bonus on-hit damage to the primary target should be applied.
idk if 25% extra dmg to jg is worth losing some of the auto aim on Q for Qiyana. Also losing 10 dmg all rank on her E. Seems like a straight nerf
That change is not meant to be because of her jungling, it was an independent decision.
They are really hesitant to put the Rengar rework on live server huh?
Rengar was put to PBE with the intent to gather feedback and not to ship immediatly. This was something that was being tried, and not the normal process we go through.
Like most of the buffs this patch, it's because they want him to be picked in worlds. It's not bigger because he's already doing well.
This is correct. Yone is balanced (neither OP nor UP) but he is on the lower side of that band, so we figured we could do a low-risk pro facing buff. We looked at Yasuo as well but he, while also balanced, is on the higher end of balanced so we figured it was not worth the risk.
if their playrate is just low due to people perceiving them as bad
Ok but that makes no sense for Yone because his playrate is literally among the highest in the game:
https://www.leagueofgraphs.com/de/champions/stats/yone
And all his other stats are completely fine so this buff is entirely unwarranted. But this patch is for Worlds so yeah....they just want him to be played at Worlds i guess.
An explicit goal of many of these buffs is that we want these champions to be picked at worlds.
[Serious, Don't say bcuz skin.] Could I ask why exactly Yone was given a buff? Across all ELOs he seems to be in a okay spot for an melee ADC right now.
It seems pretty dumb. Really the champ should be getting a adjustment to make lane against him feel less obnoxious, either nerf E's duration or give it less move speed early on.
As others have said a lot of these buffs are targeted at pro play (specifically changes that will manifest far more often in pro than other bands of play) and this change for Yone is no different. While he falls within "balanced", he is on the lower end and we felt we could afford to buff him in a low-risk way that we feel won't manifest much in the skill bands where he is strongest.
Are you really saying Qiyana is weak mid? Jesus this sub... She has a 52%+ WR at Diamond elo and higher on 11.17.
https://lolalytics.com/lol/qiyana/build/?tier=diamond_plus
She is a "high elo" champ, she feel maybe not as strong in plat where she is almost at 50%WR because people don't know how to play her optimally.
Nerfing her mid to also make her more flexible with the jungle is a right call.
Qiyana is indeed one of the strongest mid laners in high elo and has been consistently for awhile. Ideally this should help tone down some of her power while also opening her up into the jungle.
I thought Fizz was supposed to receive a buff this patch. This looks like a nerf rather than a buff. And where's Playful / Trickster cooldown reduction from PBE?
URGOT
Q - Corrosive Charge
Cooldown 12/11/10/9/8 seconds ⇒ 10/9.5/9/8 seconds
Typo. Also it's supposed to be a buff against ranged match ups but it buffs him against melee as well, doesn't it?
KARMA
E - Inspire
Base Shield 80/125/170/215/260 ⇒ 90/135/180/225/270
Nice. Throw some bones to Karma. With that she'll be able to carry again.
And no changes to Ryze. Lad has been sitting on poor win rates lately and, I suppose, "problematic" in pro play. Guess it's the time for another Ryze rework, eh?
The Fizz changes were always meant to be an adjustment rather than a buff or nerf, I believe that was miscommunicated. The E changes were pulled as they were deemed too risky, and also we didn't feel they were as pro-focused as we wanted them to be (the goal of many of these changes being to bring these champions into pro play where possible).
Camille flying out of real nerfs with e
We wanted to target her early laning because that is where she is strongest and a big part of the reason she is dominant in pro. For all elo bands her winrate isn't actually too high, so we mainly wanted to focus on reasons for her pro dominance.
Can you elaborate a little bit on what happens if the champs that are seeing niche buffs don't get picked at worlds? Do they see more further changes to hopefully make them more viable? Or what happens to the champs that see more play and become pick/ban due to these changes or because people are finally noticing a specific champ is actually really good but got overlooked. Every patch has hits and duds, what happens with the hits and duds in this scenario if the only goal for these changes targeted at pro play.
Theres a lot of moving parts here, because we have to consider both pro play and also all of the skill bands of non-pro play. Ideally, these changes bring these champions that are currently out of the pro meta INTO the pro meta, but not as such that they are dominant in presence (picks and bans). If a champion has too high pro presence as a direct result of these changes (or otherwise) we will probably nerf them because we want to encourage more diversity in pro, not have it be dominated by a small subset of characters. If a change doesn't bring a champion into pro play at worlds... its hard to say. They might see pro-focused buffs in the future or we might shift our focus to other projects. Likewise even if a champion doesn't see pro play, if our changes make them too dominant for non-pro League of Legends, they will be nerfed. While we want these champions in pro we aren't willing to sacrifice the game for the rest of the playerbase to make that happen.
Thanks a ton for the reply GalaxySmash. Could you comment on how you feel about the feeling about balance on Yone E move speed and it’s effect in low elo ? I Appreciate the insight immensely!
I am extremely bias because I love playing Yone honestly. With that being said, in my opinion Yone in general is pretty balanced right now, but overall fairly frustrating to play against. Move speed on E is a pretty necessary tool to make his E function well, otherwise it would be really hard to stick on enemies and continue to DPS them. I don't think that part of that ability has a particular elo skew, though it may be more useful in low elo because players would struggle to position as well on Yone and the MS helps compensate for that. I think overall though that part of his kit is basically a must for it to function.
I am extremely bias because I love playing Yone honestly. With that being said, in my opinion Yone in general is pretty balanced right now, but overall fairly frustrating to play against. Move speed on E is a pretty necessary tool to make his E function well, otherwise it would be really hard to stick on enemies and continue to DPS them. I don't think that part of that ability has a particular elo skew, though it may be more useful in low elo because players would struggle to position as well on Yone and the MS helps compensate for that. I think overall though that part of his kit is basically a must for it to function.
Worth noting I think the movespeed on the E does contribute somewhat to the frustration, but its an accepted cost to make the ability work. I think frustration is also not necessarily a bad thing in a champion as long as it is at a a reasonable level, which I think Yone's is. We usually measure player frustration in banrate proportional to winrate, and overall his seems to be at a completely reasonable level.
I find Yone fun af too. Just impossible to play against sometimes on some champs mid, lane feels like a disaster.
My crying to the side, I can respect them opinion that he is balanced well atm. What would the lever be to target a low elo nerf if not E Movespeed? E duration maybe?
Thanks :)
its hard to say, Yone's levers are pretty fickle. E duration might be something but its also something thats pretty sacred to the character so we would be very reluctant to change it. Not to cop-out but I honestly can't think of anything off the top of my head LOL. Thankfully Yone is pretty flat in terms of elo skew, even being slightly stronger in low elo compared to other elo brackets so we wouldn't require any low elo buffs any time soon.
So even without the jungle buffs she would have gotten a HP regen, E damage and EQ combo nerf? Seems a bit harsh for a champ that's 95% of the time a worse Zed.
Would love to see these changes to be revisited.
Theres a good chance we revisit a lot of these changes in 11.19 if they go too far in either direction. This is why we did them a patch before worlds, to be sure their impact isn't more extreme than we would like them to be.
What’s the normal process is like? I remember the change to xin zhao’s w was shipped pretty quickly
Xin Zhao's changes were something that we tested internally for months before we shipped it, as we do for most changes. The normal process is the changes go to PBE a patch (2 weeks) before they ship.
Is it true that only riot employees can have riot in their summoner name?
Yes
Just a quick question, I'm sure you must have plenty of stats and trends to back the changes but what happens if the champions that received pro play adjustments got little to no picks in pro play?
It is honestly pretty likely to happen with how many champions we are changing, and we are OK with that. If they don't get picked, they might be revisited in the future or we may just accept that the champion is not seeing play and move on.
Respectfully as possible, how do you determine a champions "frustration" to play against is worth changes? Personally I hate going against Yone, but can see that he is fun for the player. But at what point does their fun out way my misery for changes to be made?
Because going against this champion can just be a nightmare at times, and he is VERY popular simultaneously. But unlike Yas, that's not the core of why I find him unenjoyable to go against. Yasuo is everywhere but Yone is just frustrating.
There really is no "official" way as frustration is VERY subjective. Banrate is a good start but you have to look at it within the context on winrate as well. A champion with a high banrate but also high winrate makes sense, players ban them because they are powerful. A champion with a high banrate but average winrate is a sign that champion is likely leading a a lot of frustration in players and probably feeling more powerful than they actually are. Samira was an example of a champion that we changed to target frustration. Her winrate was average but her banrate was very high, so we targeted some of the areas players had been voicing their opinion felt the most powerful, and changed her dash to only work on allies (she felt too mobile and hard to lock down) and increased her R CD from 3 to 8 seconds (she felt like she had too easy access to her ultimate multiple times in a fight). We also decreased her W duration and her E dash speed to help increase her counterplay. Her banrate dropped and once we compensation buffed her later, her banrate has stayed at a much more normal range.
Also important to note that Yone nor Yasuo are anywhere near that threshold where we would consider adjusting them to help with feelings of frustration.
Were you maining to bring him to pro play in midlane or toplane? Either way wont happen at worlds, pretty sure. Just wondering what role you were aiming for.
Mid lane is the goal
At what point does player satisfaction play into the equation? It's all well and good that flashy pro play champions are picked, but if that has a detrimental effect on player satisfaction surely it's not a good change?
Thats right, we don’t want any of these changes to come at the expense of the rest of League of Legends whether it be through winrate or satisfaction or otherwise. We carefully selected these changes with that in mind, and did the higher risk changes a patch prior to worlds to allow us to make the necessary adjustments on 11.19 if need be.
What do you think about nerfing the true damage dealt after Yone exits his E? And buffing him elsewhere?
Possible, but risky as it runs the risk of lessening part of the Yone fantasy of using E as a finisher.
Fwiw Yasuo has gotten changes over the years to remedy the frustration. I think Yone will kind of see that trimming in the same way. Yasuo losing permanent armor pen on ulting was what made me not utterly loathe him. I think when the meta shifts to be less sustain heavy they'll be more manageable in solo queue.
I do have to wonder what champion is notorious for being frustrating just consistently? Outside of Yasuo. Pyke used to be if I recall.
Zed is probably my guess, he has an average winrate but had been nearing a 50% banrate before we nerfed him. I haven’t looked the data post-nerf however but historically players have always regarded him with frustration
can't believe yone becomes first when it comes to buff him or yasuo. Yasuo is way harder to play and does not have a get out of jail free card as yone.
I like Yasuo just as much as I do Yone but Yasuo simply didnt have enough room for a pro-focused power increase while Yone did.
Thanks for the reply!
But honest question: why? Yasuo is almost never picked in pro play and is only somewhat viable if there is a diana. So he's far from being a decent pick now.
His soloQ winrate is solidly average, but on the higher end of average as such that we don't think we could buff him for pro without running a high risk of increasing his soloQ winrate beyond balanced levels.
That makes a lot sense I suppose, I remember him being a terror in earlier seasons.
If I may ask one last question, I know you guys (some of the team) are active on Reddit. But how do you balance this issue with other non-english regions?
If I recall right Malzahar is LOATHED in a lot of the Chinese and eastern servers. But Yasuo is just "okay" and not a big deal. Similar for champs like Fizz. How do you balance that kind of thing?
Or do you find champs like Malz and their penance to be uninteractive just easier to adjust? Because I feel in a lot of regions, people find champions with too much interaction are frustrating, but other regions tend to find champions with not enough to instead be annoying.
We simply use data from all servers, the mistmatch of player preference based on region all gets evened out when you look at the data as a whole, and it also allows us to not hone in on outliers in one region that are fine within a holistic view of the game.