[2020] When someone asks about humility-style effects in theros draft.

Originally posted by Filobel

it's straightout nonsensical that ability loss is not layer 1

That's because you're only trying to solve the situation where dryad loses its ability, and not thinking about all the other possible interactions.

Alright, first off, let's do as you say and put it in layer 1. That puts it before copy effects, such as clone. Imagine the following situation. I have a [[clone]] that copies a [[wind drake]]. You put [[Ichthyomorphosis]] on it. Does my clone still have flying? Well, if ability loss is in layer 1, the answer is yes, because it loses its abilities first, then becomes a copy. Is that more intuitive?

Alright, so clearly, copy effects need to happen before. What about if we put ability loss as layer 2. That means it happens before control changing effects. Imagine you have [[Archetype of Imagination]] and a wind drake. Your opponent uses [[control magic]] to steal your wind drake. Does the stolen wind drake have flying? If ability loss was layer 2, yes, the drake would have flying, because archetype of imagination removes flying from your opponent's creatures before wind drake has changed control.

Ok, what about at layer 3. That puts it before text changing effects. Imagine you have an enchantment that says something like "all blue creatures lose flying" and you have a wind drake. You then use [[alter reality]] to change blue to red, such that it now says "all red creatures lose flying". Does your wind drake have flying? No, because the effect is applied before the text changes, so when it applies, it still says "blue".

Ok, so let's put it at layer 4, so that it's before type changing. This is really the crux of the issue, right? Ok, imagine your opponent turned a land into a creature using Nissa, then you cast [[humility]]. Does the land lose all its abilities? If we do as you suggest, no. Because the "lose all abilities" is applied before the type changing effect, so the land isn't a creature at that point.

To add to this, you have to consider that ability loss and ability gain are in the same layer. They have to be, otherwise you get really weird stuff. For instance, if ability loss was applied before ability gain, if there's a creature enchanted with an aura that grants flying, and you cast a card that says "target creature loses flying", it wouldn't actually lose flying, because "loss" would apply before "gain". That means you have to keep them together in the same layer. Why does that matter? Because if you say "you know what? I'm fine with the humility interaction you said earlier", the interactions with ability granting effects would be much more impactful.

Imagine you have a goblin that says "all goblins have haste". You also have [[arcane adaptation]] naming goblin. You cast wind drake. Does it have haste? If ability granting was before type changing, then the answer would be no.

Remember that Magic has existed for over 25 years now. They've been refining the rules since. Everyone knows layers have issues, so there's no doubt they've looked at it to see if something better could be done. The fact that they are still used means that they're the lesser evil, or at the very least, there is no easy alternatives. Perhaps one day someone will think of a revolutionary solution, but such a solution isn't going to be as trivial as "just reorder the layers!" They didn't order the layers randomly, they're ordered such that they are intuitive in most scenarios.