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GGG's preview of the Spellslinger support says: "Your wand's base damage is added to the damage of the spell."

Piscator's Vigil says "Attacks with this Weapon have 100% increased Elemental Damage". If I add 100 elemental damage, wand attacks will attack for 200. Is 100 or 200 elemental damage added to the Spellslinger spell?

Additionally, if I use Manastorm to gain a further +100 elemental damage, that would mean Piscator's does 400. During Manastorm's +100 damage, does the Spellslinger spell gain:

  1. +200 wand (100 added, 100 Manastorm, no Piscator's explicit) = +200 spell damage
  2. +200 wand (100 added, 100 Manastorm, no Piscator's explicit) +100 Manastorm to spell = +300 spell damage
  3. +200 wand (100 added, no Manastorm, yes Piscator's explicit) +100 Manastorm to spell = +300 spell damage
  4. +400 wand (100 added, 100 Manastorm, Piscator's explicit) = +400 spell damage
  5. +400 wand (100 added, 100 Manastorm, Piscator's explicit) +100 Manastorm to spell = +500 spell damage

I want to think there's a rule that global added damage can only be added once, but I don't think we've had a case like Spellslinger before.

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almost 5 years ago - /u/Mark_GGG - Direct link

Originally posted by ColinStyles

To be fair to you as well, there is one instance where even GGG does this, I may poke rory about it in fact, Explosive arrow.

It mentions the explosion damage is based on 50% of base damage, no mention of effectiveness of added damage on the gem itself (assumed 100%), but the explosion should use a different word to just base.

No, that's correct. The explosion deals 50% of the base damage, but does not modify how much added damage is dealt (thus leaving it at full effect since the skill's effectiveness of added damage is 100% and thus not displayed).

For contrast, level 1 Heavy Strike has the stat "Deals 176% of Base Attack Damage", and also has 176% Effectiveness of Added Damage. The Explosive Arrow only modifies the first of those for the explosion.

And for future reference, I'm probably the person to poke over Rory for wording quibbles :P

almost 5 years ago - /u/Mark_GGG - Direct link

Originally posted by mcurley32

I only worded it that way because of the ways that bleed, poison, and ignite are calculate and typically worded: "Potential damage from one bleed application is based on the base physical damage of attack that caused it" (from the wiki)

though digging deeper and seeing Mark's forum post that is cited for that forum line: "Bleeidng deals 70% of the applicable (usually physical) base and added damage of the skill, per second, for 5 seconds base duration."

you are absolutely correct. I can't think of an instance prior to Spellslinger where the distinction between base damage and added damage (after any damage effectiveness, of course) was significant, so "we" have always lumped base and added damage together for convenience of discussion (I guess)

I can't think of an instance prior to Spellslinger where the distinction between base damage and added damage (after any damage effectiveness, of course) was significant

The main way in which Base and Added Damage are treated differently is that there are specific modifiers to each of them, most notably Effectiveness of Added Damage on skills (which obviously affects only Added Damage, not Base), and the matching "Deals x% of Base Damage" modifier which is only currently used on attacks (and tends to have a value that matches the EoAD for the skill, though there are exceptions to that). However, there are a few others out there, such as Summon Skeletons having "Minions gain 50% more Added Damage", which is a more modifier for the minions that only affects Added Damage.

almost 5 years ago - /u/Mark_GGG - Direct link

Originally posted by ColinStyles

So to make sure I'm understanding correctly, theoretically I have a bow that has a local 100-200 flat phys, and no other sources. That becomes 50-100 in the explosion.

Or, if I get 100-200 from other sources like rings, abyssal jewels, whatever, and a bow that deals no physical damage (but doesn't disable it) the explosion will deal the full 100-200 phys damage?

That seems very counterintuitive, normally added/secondary effects will list out everything that goes into them, and it being excluded does not imply 100%, but 0%. For instance, detonate dead does not say anything about the explosion dealing (or not dealing) base damage, but it does not.

That is correct. The default case for any hit is that you will deal 100% of base damge and 100% of added damage, which is why those are the cases which are not explicitly described on gems/skills. Effectiveness of Added Damage is not shown on gems where it's 100%, and "Deals x% of Base Damage" is not shown on gems where it's 100% (which I believe currently includes all spell gems, only attacks use this modifier because spells would just have different base damage values on the gem instead). Certainly I think it's understood that in cases where a skill doesn't explicitly list those modifiers, it will hit for full damage, not 0% of it.

Explosive arrow's hits don't list any explicit modifiers to either, so deal 100% of base and 100% of added damage. The explosion is also an attack hit from that skill, but has a specific modifier only to the base damage, leaving the added damage as it is for the rest of the skill.

Internally the reason for this is that both of these are not actually a % value, but a % modifier, with some syntactic sugar on the display - they're actually more/less modifiers, and an effectivness of added damage being "100%" is actually the case where the value is 0% more/less, i.e. no modification to the damage.

almost 5 years ago - /u/Mark_GGG - Direct link

Originally posted by ColinStyles

Right, that I understand, it's why spectral throw is so comically short on modifiers.

What I mean though is, normally for any effect other than the actual hit effect of a projectile coliding with an enemy, be that an explosion, a secondary zone of damage, whatever it might be, will be listed if it's not simply a more or less damage multiplier.

For instance, infernal blow. it states that it deals:

Explosion deals base Fire Damage equal to 6% of the corpse's Maximum Life Debuff deals 66% of Damage per Charge

Both damage types are included in that statement as it's just generic damage.

But cremation, if it's the same as detonate dead (sorry for all the corpse explosion mechanics but there aren't that many sources of secondary damage in PoE, apologies), deals a percentage of the corpse's life as damage, and does not include any other damage, be that base or added.

I guess that's where I'm getting hung up here. It's a secondary effect, by default it deals no damage unless otherwise stated, at which point only the damage listed should apply. So explosive arrow to me, being a secondary effect, should only deal the 50% of base damage and not include any added damage, or the gem should be ammended to read:

Explosion deals 50% less damage.
100% more added damage dealt by explosions.

I'm not sure in what you're using "secondary effect" to mean - you discuss secondary damage in relation to corpse skills, but that's not relevant to explosive arrow, as the explosion is attack damage. The difference here is more like the distinction between the melee and projectile hits of Lightning Strike - both attack damage, but with some different modifiers applying.

With Cremation, the explosion deals secondary damage while the projectiles deal spell damage - the base damage of one type can't be used to calculate damage of the other type. Added spell damage will likewise not apply, although global added damage will apply to both.

I'm getting the impression that the "deals x% of base" wording may be a contributing factor to the confusion here. This was used because we wanted it to match the other modifiers on attacks that modify base damage, since those are exactly what it looks like. Would it be less confusing if it said "Explosion deals 50% less Base Damage"?

almost 5 years ago - /u/Mark_GGG - Direct link

Originally posted by tarrasqueSorcerer

When a skill gem adds extra flat damage, like many attack skills, is that damage base, added, or neither? I suspect neither, but better be sure.

If it "adds" damage, that damage is added. There is no "neither" - all damage is either base or added, and for attacks, base damage comes from the weapon's damage values.

The only exceptions I'm aware of to that are Spectral Shield Throw and Shield Charge, which both provide an amount of base damage directly on the gem, like spells (because shields are not weapons and thus cannot provide base damage), but also add damage based depending on the armour and evasion rating on the shield. Note that the base damage is explicitly described as being base damage, and does not use the term "add" anywhere, while the added damage is not described as base.

almost 5 years ago - /u/Mark_GGG - Direct link

Originally posted by QuestionAskingExile

And for future reference, I'm probably the person to poke over Rory for wording quibbles :P

Me: Mom, I want [ Enemies Killed Explode ]

Mom: We already got that at home.

At Home: [ Killed Enemies Explode ]

: ' )

There is already an issue on my list to improve those descriptions for 3.10.0, but I can't yet say what form any improvement there will take.

almost 5 years ago - /u/Mark_GGG - Direct link

Originally posted by dtm85

So does this mean that the damage from shaper's mod like 1-6 lightning damage per 10 INT with this weapon will not apply to spellslinger??? Was really hoping that we finally get to make stat stacking spell builds.

That modifier does not change the wand's damage, it has no interaction with Spellslinger.