almost 5 years ago - /u/Wrel - Direct link

Hey there, folks. Wanted to make a quick post to share some design theory behind the new spawn system as a whole, and try to allay some concerns about recent issues.

Our main goals with the new system were to

  • Help filter players into more enjoyable fights.
  • Discourage overpopulation as it moves from base to base.
  • Allow for more freedom to move around the map.

While there have been no shortage of growing pains as we’ve worked through bugs, edge cases in the ruleset, and iterated on some of the concepts, the new system has been overwhelmingly positive for the flow of population around the continent.

You’ll quite often find fights spread all throughout the map and at many different scales, and when zergs form (fights with an extreme imbalance in the population on one faction), they disperse fairly quickly and naturally.

Aside from some bugs here and there, the main complaint being surfaced currently is that players are unable to deploy into a region at maximum capacity. For the current spawn rules, we don’t allow players to jump directly into any combat region with more than 96 players in it. That is by design.

While our messaging needs to be better, this is an important part of keeping fights populated around the map. And here’s where the design theory comes in…

In PlanetSide 2, our goal for the game in its entirety, is to keep the initial barrier to entry low for the most fundamental gameplay, and layer on deeper experiences for players who are willing to commit more time and energy. In terms of the spawn system, the way we see these layers are as follows.

  • The most abundant and baseline group of players expect to easily be able to find a battle, any battle, and will most often take the path of least resistance to get there. This type of player will take the spawn points suggested, and because of this, we want to encourage these players to reinforce small fights, spin up new fights, and easily jump back into the fight that they’re already at.

  • The next level are more experienced players who also want to quickly get to the battle, but they have a specific place in mind. This player may not always get their pick of ideal spawn location, but they’re willing to put in additional effort to get there if the desire is high enough. These players tend to help less with fight creation, but tend to balance out the fights that currently exist.

  • The last layer, and least abundant group of players, are the ones who are operating as a coordinated squad or platoon. Spawn restrictions matter a lot less here, as squads have benefits that allow them to move around the map with ease. These players create decisive change within the map, for example, during alerts. Even though this group of players are the smallest, they are the wildcard that helps keep gameplay from stagnating.

In terms of how this impacts the spawn system, particularly in the example of players being unable to spawn directly into an area with 96+ population, is that the players who are following the path of least resistance will get routed elsewhere to reinforce smaller fights, or generate new ones around the map. For the players who want to get there anyway, it’s a hurdle that they’ll have to climb over by either spawning at an adjacent region, or joining a squad.

It’s in this way that we keep generating that nice flow of population around the map more often than not.

That said, there are certainly drawbacks with the current implementation of the maximum capacity threshold that need to be addressed. We've seen them manifesting here and there (and more so with the most recent update that removed Reinforcements Needed.) The main one being that if a fight is imbalanced when it reaches that threshold, you’re not going to get more reinforcements from the baseline player because they’re being routed elsewhere. That means relying mainly on squadplay to contest region imbalance at that scale, which won't always happen.

We have a couple directions we can go with tuning these thresholds. We could make it so players can further reinforce these overpopulated areas, but the more loose our ruleset is, the less effective the system will be overall at spreading population balance.

More likely is that we'll want to go the other direction, where we're more strictly gating players from imbalancing overpopulated areas. This can come in the form of a per-faction population cap, to help prevent any one side from being able to overwhelm another.

We’ll be continuing to tune the spawn system rulesets with each update until we feel like they’re in a good spot that will stand the test of time. If you have any questions, feel free to ask.

EDIT: Redid a couple of the bottom paragraphs for clarity.

External link →
almost 5 years ago - /u/Wrel - Direct link

Originally posted by Norington

I don't know, I feel like a 'spawn anywhere unless your faction is hugely overpopping' philosophy might be the way to go from here. So basically the current ruleset without the hard cut-off.

Easier to understand, less frustrating and will still spread fights out a lot more than the previous system.

Having said that, the current system is already a huge leap forward. I have a lot less downtime than before and there are more small-medium sized fights to find. Especially being able to spawn onto sunders in enemy hexes across the map, really helps keep fights balanced.

Easier to understand, less frustrating and will still spread fights out a lot more than the previous system.

I wish that were the case. Players tend to glom onto the biggest fights they see on the map, which is the main reason you're seeing a bunch of complaints surrounding not being able to spawn into overpopulated regions. The result of absolute freedom would be less fights overall, worse framerates, and a bad experience for everyone involved.

almost 5 years ago - /u/Wrel - Direct link

Originally posted by Mustarde

I was on board and having a great time until this week when you got rid of reinforcements needed. Now I’m frustrated watching AOD or SKL barrel down a lane without adequate resistance and now the system sucks again. I understand the high level thinking here, but it’s not playing out well. And these big zergs will avoid each other, just like years ago with the initial VP system of touching warp gates with a hellzerg.

What I hate the most is when I make the effort to fly to the hellzerg to try and stop them, now I know no one else is coming, and all I can do is try to farm these people from the spawn room without hope that we will get more reinforcements, balance out the fight and potentially save the base. Sorry wrel, I’m not with you on this one. Being back reinforcements needed.

Come on, Mustarde. I literally had an entire paragraph on this.

That said, there are certainly drawbacks with a maximum capacity threshold, and we've seen them manifesting here and there (more so with the most recent update.) The main one being that if a fight is imbalanced when it reaches that threshold, you’re not going to get more reinforcements from the baseline player because they’re being routed elsewhere.

almost 5 years ago - /u/Wrel - Direct link

Originally posted by VinLAURiA

It sounds to me like the issue other comments are describing is that all factions in a region contribute to - and have to contend with - the same single population limit. Why not just have separate limits for each faction, so that one going to 96+ doesn't prevent the other(s) from spawning in?

Why not just have separate limits for each faction,

Something similar will likely be in the next tuning pass.

almost 5 years ago - /u/Wrel - Direct link

Originally posted by caligs

Shouldn't the maximum capacity be calculated per-faction rather than globally?

Mentioned this in another comment, but something similar to that will likely end up in the next tuning pass.

almost 5 years ago - /u/Wrel - Direct link

Originally posted by Vindicore

Soooo is there anything in the pipeline to fix this? Reinforcements needed reworked?

Reinforcements needed reworked?

Doesn't need a full rework, just needs some tuning to play nicely with the current spawn rules, as mentioned here.

almost 5 years ago - /u/Wrel - Direct link

Originally posted by Bil0wan

I think the misunderstanding here is that many people, myself included, read the above paragraph as "well its a drawback but that's how it is" and not as "we wanna do something about this issue"

Good point, I'll restructure that paragraph and the one following it to be more clear.

almost 5 years ago - /u/Wrel - Direct link

Originally posted by VinLAURiA

Cool, sounds like that'll solve the main concern in this thread.

It's not a silver bullet, but it'll help, for sure.

almost 5 years ago - /u/Wrel - Direct link

Originally posted by CatGirlVS

So now you have to get roped into a zerg platoon and mute all the voice spam if you want to keep spawning into a 96+...

More likely is that we'll want to go the other direction, where we're more harshly penalizing players in imbalanced and overpopulated areas, even while in a squad.

I get the goal here is to make more fights, but do you want to do that by practically outlawing the game's unique selling point?

So now you have to get roped into a zerg platoon and mute all the voice spam if you want to keep spawning into a 96+...

If you're already at a fight, you can respawn there, which in most cases would mean pulling an ESF and bailing above the hex as we've been doing for the past 6 years, so I'm not sure where you're getting this from. Mind elaborating?

almost 5 years ago - /u/Wrel - Direct link

Originally posted by tecknojock

Is it intentional that attackers cannot spawn at cutoff territory? I know defenders aren't supposed to be able to once a territory is cut off, but neither can attackers, which sorta defeats the point of cutting off a territory.

Not intended. I'll take a pass at it for the next update.

almost 5 years ago - /u/Wrel - Direct link

Originally posted by Mustarde

It's not that you've misdiagnosed the problem, it's that you (in the initial version of the post) were sticking to the idea that we shouldn't let you spawn in those fights because it would become a pop sink and take away from balancing the rest of the front line, and you were going to consider penalties to those attackers in the hellzerg.

My assessment of the new system and battle flow is that even with reinforcements needed still in, the system WAS working well to distribute pops and improve fight quality. The offensive spawns to help spool up fights was great, and the inability to spawn hop to overpop a fight was also very reasonable and limited that defending advantage.

The tone of my reply was that you had an entire paragraph on the subject but concluded only small tweaks were needed. I would challenge the hypothesis that these pop sinks would ruin the distribution of players along other fights. I also think when you state "That means relying mainly on squadplay to contest region imbalance at that scale, which won't always happen." - you should replace that with "almost NEVER happens" because that's 95% of the time.

Let us reinforce fights being attacked up to 50/50. Continue to prevent spawn hopping. Continue to promote offensive spawns. I think you'll still see good dynamics and fights.

My assessment of the new system and battle flow is that even with reinforcements needed still in, the system WAS working well to distribute pops and improve fight quality.

I think the main thing Reinforcements Needed was doing well, and was certainly under appreciated until the last update, was that it was dumping people into regions as they spun up, which started evening things out the population before hitting that 96+ threshold.

It's an easy change to make to turn the system back on, I can do it without downtime on Monday. We do still need to get it to work with the new spawn system the right way, but that's not to say it can't remain on through then. As you're getting at with your posts, the system did do more good than harm.

almost 5 years ago - /u/Wrel - Direct link

Originally posted by mooglinux

Please do reenable that. I think per-faction population caps would prevent problems with not being able to reinforce an imbalanced fight, and removing reinforcements needed has shown how big a problem that actually is.

Agreed 100%.

almost 5 years ago - /u/Wrel - Direct link

Originally posted by 3punkt1415

First of all, thanks for this post, its good info, and people were waiting for it.
Can you sai something about the Elysium Spawn type? Why did the binding option got removed? It makes building a base completly usless when i can not spawn there once i left the base for what ever reason.

We don't have the ability to check for matrixed spawn points with the new system at the moment, but we'll try to get it online in the next update, along with some more lenient rules for construction bases in general.






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