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I hadn't played since last year, coming back I soon realized that mechanoid now dont give you anything that you cant get from selling about 8 flake or building one drill. I know there was an "exploit" of farming the assemblers but the reaction was like torching an entire town because you saw a spider on the wall, AND for some reason the mechanoids seem to spawn a lot more than normal raids regardless of temperature, plus the clusters.
So you have enemies that can easily kill you, affect your map, and the centipede can tank 4 guys with with high melee and masterwork maces for about 2 minutes, and you get absolutely nothing in return, meanwhile human raids give you weapons, prisioners (Maybe with all the juicy bits!), leather and food and money, while still being somewhat challenging.

I understand wanting to remove that exploit but the knee jerk reaction was really weird, and the fact that names were changed so you *shred them\* doesnt give me much hope of a change. Colonists can build a laser rifle or a railgun but they cant get anything more than 40 steel out of a 20 ton giant robot.

I'll just keep using the mod that keep drops as pre-nerf, just a little rant I guess.

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over 3 years ago - /u/TynanSylvester - Direct link

So there's some missing information and zombie memes polluting this discussion, figured I'd try to shed some light.

It had nothing to do with mech assemblers. This was just one of those notions that someone invented that spreads like a meme, but it has no actual source. Mech assemblers were solved just by limiting them, we would never do something ridiculous like completely rebalance an entire enemy type for a problem that could be solved so much more narrowly.

It was related to the general problem of large late-game mechanoid threats almost entirely obviating the need for players to have any economy at all, with the added problem that harder difficulty settings were in many ways easier because you got more resource deliveries from bigger raids. Economy was completely broken, and difficulties were inverted.

We added resource rewards from the raids. They're assigned to one of the mechs (more if necessary). They'll drop piles of plasteel or components. Is this not being noticed? Is it bugged and not working? I'd love to know.

This applies to human raids as well. Critically, these drops are difficulty-independent, which solves the difficulty inversion problem.

What you're really seeing is just normal-difficulty drops being given for giant high-difficulty raids (often provoked by mods or mod-inflated wealth levels). So it feels weird to fight so hard for so little. But this is what high difficulty means.

Play it as you want of course. But the game makes more sense when you actually need to have an economy to gain wealth, instead of just sitting there running a raid meat grinding operation. Generally we want to design the game so that the different aspects of play actually matter consistently instead of just becoming meaningless.

over 3 years ago - /u/TynanSylvester - Direct link

Originally posted by Cibranith

Thanks for clearing that up! Went to check why it was nerfed back then and the reasons given were mostly "economy" and "exploit" which made sense but also made me go "but why".

About the reward from raids I might have missed it so I checked again, they are droping from direct raids at a higher drop than clusters it seems, I got mostly clusters mid-game so that was the problem probably, clusters drop about 40%ish? of the raid drops (3700 points cluster vs raid, cluster gave 34 and raid dropped about 90)

I'll probably drop the reverse at mid game and see how it fares, on the meantime the helmets might help when 90% of the air turns into bullets from the turrets lol

Clusters generally have a big building in the middle with some loot in it (EMI dynamo or whatever), so they're supposed to handle that role. In principle. I've no doubt there is room for improvement in terms of the tuning.

over 3 years ago - /u/TynanSylvester - Direct link

Originally posted by Isaac_The_Khajiit

It was related to the general problem of large late-game mechanoid threats almost entirely obviating the need for players to have any economy at all, with the added problem that harder difficulty settings were in many ways easier because you got more resource deliveries from bigger raids. Economy was completely broken, and difficulties were inverted.

I'd like to add my 2 cents here about the problem I see with the late-game economy. Growing psychoid to make flake is incredibly easy once the initial struggles related to your biome have been solved, (getting greenhouses or hydroponics set up if you have a short growing season) and in the late game I usually have stacks of 400-600 flake sitting around at any given time just waiting for a trade ship to come take it off my hands. I could make a caravan to sell off the excess, but usually that feels like too much of a hassle when I can just wait for some to come to me.

On the other hand, when you get loot from raids, at least you had to work for those rewards.

This isn't a criticism, as I'm fine with how loot drops from mechanoids currently work, and I don't really have a good solution for the problem of excessive wealth in late game, unless you attempt some kind of dynamic economy in which flooding the market with one good will lower its value.

There will always be excessive wealth in late-game at a certain point, that's just the nature of how capital works. We can't involuntarily trash peoples' wealth. The game will always break down past a certain point. I have solutions to this but they're kind of involved (and in consideration).

This was more about alleviating the problem to some degree, not solving it entirely. E.g. You might have tons of flake, but converting that to other usable materials may be tricky. Versus getting massive straight deliveries of plasteel and steel and components - hyper-practical resources.