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I've been trying out the new bionic weapons and i'm not sure i agree with how they're balanced.

Firstly: they add attacks to the "melee pool", which is weighted in favor of stronger attacks.

An unarmed pawn with an elbow blade / knee spike / hand talon will have a 80% chance to use them, or 20% chance to use regular melee attacks.

Adding more than 1 augment is useless, as they deal the same dps and will thus not increase the chance of a pawn using them.

An unarmed pawn with 1 elbow blade is equally powerful as an unarmed pawn with 2 elbow blades, 2 hand talons and 2 knee spikes.

On top of that, the power claw is strictly better than any of the above options, which is fine since it's a bit cheaper to make, but a let-down nonetheless as the extra cost is fairly low and can actually replace a lost hand unlike the rest.

Next are venom-type weapons: venom fangs and venom talon.

The venom-type weapons deal half dps and they'll usually incur in the target losing 5-10% consciousness, which does not justify their use, ever.

In my tests i had two identical colonists fight 10 times, then 10 more times but with armor.

The power claw always won.

The venom fang lost 18/20 times, winning only twice in the armored test.

In conclusion:
  • These bionic weapons are bad for melee pawns as they interact with the melee attack pool, a normal quality steel longsword heavily out-performs all these bionic weapons in every way
  • They can however be fine for all gun-wielding pawns, except miniguns
  • Power claw is strictly better over elbow blade, knee spike and hand talon
  • Venom weapons suck, avoid using them. No redeeming quality beyond occasionally reducing consciousness by 5-10%
If i were in charge of balance i would:
  1. buff the knee spike, hand talon and elbow blade to the same damage output as the power claw.
  2. Buff the damage of venom weapons to the current damage output of the hand talon.
  3. Diversify them: knee spike could have more armor penetration. The hand talon could be faster with lower damage. While the elbow blade would have much higher damage and significantly slower attack speed (enough to out-perform the minigun's melee attack). Power claw remains the same as a balanced middle ground.
  4. Make them a bit more expensive to make as a result (50 steel instead of 15, same as power claw)

With those changes melee pawns could be compelled to pick some of these augments: elbow blades deliver devastating attacks but will slow down your next strike, hand talons let you land a quick attack in between strikes, knee spikes pierce armor making it better against tough targets.

Ranged pawns could specifically go for the elbow blade to kill melee attackers in a single strike (ideal if the pawn is in a group) or with the hand talon for less downtime between strikes (less overkill, can resume firing in less time).

edit

Adding melee augments can be useful: the best attacks available share a common 80% chance to occur, then the other 20% is split among all other attacks and the worst attack never occurs.

Adding melee augments improves odds in case you roll the 20%.

Though if you have a melee weapon, a power claw and a knee spike, the melee weapon will (most likely) have 80% chance, then the claw and spike have the same 2-4% chance despite one dealing more damage than the other.

It's not much but it's something at least.

This also means that a pawn with a longsword and a venom talon only has 4% chance of using the talon...

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about 4 years ago - /u/TynanSylvester - Direct link

You're right. There are definiely some AI derps and design incoherencies. We've had a plan to refine these for a while, but it hasn't been the top priority yet. We will get to it though (hopefully in not too long now).

about 4 years ago - /u/TynanSylvester - Direct link

Originally posted by iv2b

Hey good to know, thank you for stopping by!

I'm curious to see how the subject will be tackled: on one end there are pawns with 1/a few prosthetic weapons to use as backup and on the other end there are pawns who are fully weaponized with a dozen prosthetics, making both feel good is challenging.

Another user suggested improving attack speed when attacking with prosthetics, scaling with number. Could be a fun approach to try out. :)

The basic imbalances between spikes/blades, venom weapons, and power claw definitely need to balanced just by tuning some numbers.

Another issue is implant weapons reducing DPS for well-equipped melee pawns (with swords etc) because the pawn uses the implant instead of his superior sword, but only because the implant is there. It's because of how verbs are randomly chosen by simple weighting based on DPS. I wrote a design several weeks ago to categorize all the melee verbs into 'best', 'middle', and 'worst', with fixed proportions between these. E.g. 75%, 24%, 1%. So if you have a sword and fist, you'll benefit by adding an elbow blade because now the 24% of middle tier verbs will be blade strikes instead of punches. This is a big change though and it's quite difficult to actually categorize every verb in the game relative to each other (e.g. fist is 'best' if pawn has nothing else, but 'middle' if he has a melee weapon, etc). It can't just be DPS-based because there are other dimensions like venom effects, flame effects, EMP effects, armor penetration, etc.

I'm not so concerned about 5 compact weapons being similar to 1 compact weapon. It would be cool if each additional weapon added power, but I don't see it as necessary for the whole design to work. Something to think about on a later pass maybe.

about 4 years ago - /u/TynanSylvester - Direct link

Originally posted by iv2b

Right, about this subject: does the game currently use the old or new melee verb calculations?

The new one has best/mid/worst with a 80/20/0 split, in this scenario a melee pawn has some benefit in having 1-n prosthetic weapons as they'll dilute the 20% pool with better attacks. That seems to work quite well already from what i've seen, at least if the dev tool is accurate.

Status inflicting attacks would feel interesting at ~10-15% usage imo, maybe they could be placed in the same tier (best/mid/worst) but weighted in their favor (which can already be done by having multiple attacks, like giving the venom fangs 3 different bites with identical stats).

I'm looking forward to it, i'm especially interested in the venom fangs/talons myself, i really like the concept.

One last thing while we're here: could it be possible to have pawns incapable of violence equip the psyfocus staff, just for the stat bonuses? My psycaster is a pacifist and that restriction feels odd.

On a similar note since emp/smoke launchers deal no damage, it'd be really cool they could be used by pacifist pawns to offer support in a fight (especially neat against the new mechanoid clusters). :)

The debug output is just that - a partly developed version of what I described above (we got partway through it and then got pulled onto bugs).

Will consider the nonviolent psycaster angle. Interesting.

about 4 years ago - /u/TynanSylvester - Direct link

Originally posted by iv2b

Hey, apologies for pestering you, i've found something weird regarding the new -skin glands and i think you may want to know.

I've ran duels against two identical pawns, one had the toughskin gland (the weaker one) and the other had nothing at all. Both are at 10 melee skill.

Armor set is devilstrand duster + flak vest + button shirt + flak pants.

Weapon of choice is a normal quality steel dagger (best case scenario for the toughskin).

This is how it went down:

Toughskin Regular skin Total
No armor, no weapon 3 17 20
Armor, no weapon 10 10 20
Armor and weapon 18 12 30

With a weapon (best case scenario) and armor, the toughskin did indeed seem to help.

However without armor the toughskin gland actually made the pawn weaker!

Generally this is never a problem since by the time a player unlocks the toughskin, though it's definitely an unusual behaviour.

That's a strange result. I'll do a check ingame to see how these are working. Thanks for the note.