Original Post — Direct link

Recently, there's been a wave of users in /r/runescape who go overboard in their posts and make J-Mods feel like absolute crap for working on the game and interacting with the players.

Sure, RuneScape is not in a good place. Sure, it takes weeks or even months before Jagex resolves simple week-to-week issues that crop up. But this doesn't mean it's okay to hurl personal insults towards Jagex staff. The community managers, game devs, and other J-Mods listen to our voices, take note of the criticism, and do what they can to address the problems with the game.

Player feedback has to be persistent, but it also has to be constructive. Under no circumstances it's acceptable to abuse Jagex employees who go out of their way to comment in /r/runescape. They don't deserve it.

The Mod Team wants to make this clear. Personal attacks directed at users of /r/runescape, including Jagex staff, are not tolerated. We take quick and decisive action against users violating Rule 3 and Reddit Content Policy. If you want to participate in the subreddit, you are required to do so in a civil manner.

Taking out your frustrations at staff is unacceptable. We all want J-Mods to continue participating in here, so this behaviour needs to stop now.

I don't want to have to make this post ever again. Please remember there's a human behind every comment in the subreddit. Thank you.

External link →
about 2 years ago - /u/Mod_Miva - Direct link

Greetings! :) I want to thank everyone who has contributed to this thread. I wasn't expecting to see this thread as a result of some debate that took place yesterday. However, I believe that this experience can teach us all something.
I recognise and agree with your worries. Your comments are very valuable to us. And I mean it. The greatest approach to be heard is to provide constructive criticism, which includes both your worries and your ideas for how to improve the situation.
I know you are aware of this, but insults do no good. No one benefits from them, and they are ineffective. Furthermore, they foster a hostile atmosphere in which free communication is challenging.
Thank you for your support and patience.

about 2 years ago - /u/Mod_Miva - Direct link

Originally posted by JoshOliday

Miva, thanks for posting yesterday and trying to at least engage with us. I'm sorry that some people decided to go a step too far and insult you personally. As this thread says, that part is unacceptable.

But there also needs to be understanding why people feel that it's gotten to a point that they can do things like that. There used to be significantly more communication. And I'm not just talking about on this subreddit in particular. I mean in everything.

We used to get at least monthly Q&A streams. We've had maybe three this year?

We used to get Behind the Scenes/Month Ahead posts.

We used to have CMs at least coming in and commenting on threads here that issues that get raised time and time again are at least being looked into. Now even threads that do give feedback in constructive ways feel like they largely fall on deaf ears.

We used to even get communication on MTX changes and why, but since the Oddments and transparency changes earlier this years, we've gotten nothing not even an attempt at placation like "We've raised this with the team."

We used to know how teams were structured and some of what they were working on. Now we don't even know how many teams there even are working on updates. Heck, back during the Legacy of Zamorak reveal, we were told we'd be getting info on updates 2-3 months in advance. September is literally tomorrow and we have no clue what's coming. It's just feels like the PR/CM team is having trouble actually planning stuff or is trying to make everything some epic surprise when it doesn't have to be that way.

So, mostly, all communication feels slow, even things that aren't on Reddit. Twitter is fine to find out some things, but it doesn't really give room to have more nuanced discussions. And the Discord is so fragmented that it's hard to know where to post something or if it will even be seen.

Again, thanks for your time. I think you'll find that most people here are good, just passionate about the game and know if can be great, but when they don't feel like they are being heard, they can lash out, even if you've done nothing wrong.

Hey,
I appreciate your message. Agree, we have a lot to work on when it comes to communication, but I think there are a lot of great ideas here.
Personally, I adore "Behind-the-Scenes" blogs and videos, and I think having "Month Ahead" will be fantastic. We'll talk about it as a team and see what we can do.
Other comments have been taken into consideration and will be discussed internally.

about 2 years ago - /u/Mod_Miva - Direct link

Originally posted by Technical_Raccoon838

Miva, I hope you know that most of the people who throw those insults are not actually mad at you guys, the employees, but at the management and shareholders who are refusing to let jmods make the content we players want. The things you mods showed what you were up to in that little free-project time was everything we all wanted, yet knowing the execs and shareholders it will be shelved and something like more MTX/yaktracks will be pushed instead of it. It's just saddening to see a game that was once glorious in a state that it is in right now. This is NOT because of you, or any of your employee co-workers. It's the execs that we are mad at, but they are hiding.

I believe that being angry over something is kind of pointless. But I frequently repeat that to myself because I occasionally get angry too. I constantly tell myself to play my part and monitor the situation so I can make a decision based on the outcome.
This is it, then. Let's work to establish a space where everyone feels comfortable expressing their worries or ideas in an unrestricted manner without crossing any unhealthy redlines. And I think that this Reddit space will be a wonderful place for us to hang out, talk, and share ideas.

about 2 years ago - /u/Mod_Miva - Direct link

Originally posted by Technical_Raccoon838

I fully agree with you! Getting angry won't solve anything, but I do understand why people can get frustrated to see things like these happen. Like, the things you jmods showed us that you worked on was AMAZING. We all want that stuff in the game! And to then never hear from it again, after all the positive feedback we gave on that, hurts the community. In the end, people pay quite a decent bit to play this game, and to see the things we want being moved aside for things we don't want is frustrating, and I'm sure it's also frustrating for the developers who KNOW what would be good for the game but are not allowed/don't get the time to make it.

In the end, I just hope that the execs at jagex will realize that this is not the way forward, and that the people here who are frustrated will let their voices heard with their wallets, not insults. The employees deserve no abuse, I fully agree with you on that! The execs just need a figuratively ass-whooping (not with insults or abuse, but you get what I mean I hope!) to wake them up to see that the developers know so well what we want in this game, all they need is some development freedom

Like, the things you jmods showed us that you worked on was AMAZING. We all want that stuff in the game!
Would you mind listing a few of these ideas?

about 2 years ago - /u/Mod_Miva - Direct link

Originally posted by 5-x

  • Solo Solak and AoD updates shown by Mod Ramen
  • Arch-Glacor improvements prepared by Mod Shogun
  • New basic clothes from Mod Dragon
  • Small combat fixes from Mod Ryan and Mod Sponge

All of these were worked on during gamejam and would be a great release, anticipated by the players.

Thanks!

about 2 years ago - /u/JagexJack - Direct link

I've been thinking a lot about the term "constructive criticism". I've had some people accuse me or others of using as a shield, essentially labelling any disagreement as harassment and thus using it as an excuse to ignore it, and while that isn't true (we don't get to "ignore feedback" for made up reasons, ultimately players either like it or they don't), I do think it's quite an important distinction to draw.

For me, and looking at the behaviour patterns of other people I don't think this is unusual, the question isn't really about whether the feedback is "constructive" exactly, it's simply about whether it's rude and whether it's personal. Obviously the more detailed the feedback the better, but even a simple black and white opinion is "constructive" when we have enough of them to gather a general impression.

TLDR it's fine to say you don't like something, just don't be rude and don't make it personal.

I'll try to give an abstract example. Say I've shipped some content. Typically we'll see quite a lot of different responses:

"I love it" or "I hate it" - you could argue that this isn't constructive because it doesn't explain why, but a raw opinion is still useful when you see them in aggregate. If there's a clear majority one way or the other, or even a very mixed response, that's super useful feedback. Obviously we'd prefer players loved it, because we want people to like our content, but that doesn't mean we're entitled to compliments. I would never try to claim that someone not liking something is "unconstructive".

"I love it for " or "I hate it for " - this is generally what people mean when they say "constructive criticism". If you've explained why you like or don't like something, then we can take that into account in the future. It's slightly tricky sometimes in practice because opinions are opinions - players disagree about stuff and even if there's a consensus on whether something is good or bad, there's rarely a consensus on why it's good or bad. I mention that to say that listening to constructive feedback isn't the same thing as immediately implementing everything everyone says - we have a lot of factors to account for in every decision we make - but this is by far the best way to get heard, even if it doesn't produce 100% reliable results. Again devs would rather hear that they made someone happy, but speaking personally negative feedback telling me what I can do better is how I improve, so I'm always happy to see this.

"This is sh*t" or "this is sh*t for " - this is where it starts to get difficult. I think we've become accustomed in online discourse to treating "I hate it" and "it's sh*t" as essentially synonymous, both just ways of expressing dislike for something. Even I do it, and I'm here complaining about it, but I can assure you as the creator on the other end, they don't feel the same at all. Saying "it's sh*t" isn't just a way to emphasise that you really don't like something, it's being actively rude to the person who created it. I'm not telling you you can't communicate this way, but if you want to interact with the creators of something, this isn't the way to do it. Even if you're very clear in your reasons, you're putting up a wall of hostility which discourages someone from engaging with you further. This is where feedback becomes "unconstructive" - I would like to respond to negative feedback where possible by either offering an explanation, or asking for more information, but by framing your feedback in this way you're signalling to me that you're not interested in having that discussion, and that I'm likely to get back a barrage of further rudeness if I try.

"The dev is lazy" or "The dev is incompetent" - this is where it gets personal. This level of discourse is simply unacceptable, and just in general I would discourage people from thinking in this way. Unless you're someone's manager, close friend or family member, you simply don't know enough about what's going on in their life to be able to make this judgement. Maybe you're right and they simply didn't care, or maybe there are a hundred other factors going on personally or professionally which you know nothing about. Maybe their family member died. Maybe the compromise they came to actually was the best option available. Maybe they were assigned a task they have no experience in (which is a fault at Jagex but not with the dev you're actively insulting). Maybe the dev agrees completely with you, and fought for that perspective, but it was ultimately out of their control. Maybe the dev understands the topic better than you. We've had projects go badly because the developers involved were actually fired in the middle of the project, and someone else had to pick up the pieces, and then got eviscerated by the community afterwards. Even more so than the previous type of feedback, this is the sort of thing that actively drives devs away from interacting with the community. You might have some twisted ideological justification like "a bit of tough love is what they need to understand how wrong they are" but in practice, and especially on the internet, people can simply walk away and don't have to put up with this sort of abuse.

A lot of people in this thread are posting things like "maybe they should get thicker skin" or "maybe if they can't take the internet they should stay off it" and ultimately that's the whole point of the thread. You don't get to determine for a dev what level of harassment they should have to tolerate. If you want them to actively participate in the sub where they can and answer the questions they have the ability to, then you have to avoid actively harrassing them, no matter how justified you may feel it is. I constantly come across questions here I'd like to answer, and when I do I get a lot of responses asking "why are you answering this and not this other more controversial question?". Eventually I just stopped answering questions, because it wasn't worth the hassle.

EDIT: Spelling.

about 2 years ago - /u/JagexJack - Direct link

Originally posted by EndlessWandererCh

I completely understand what you're saying. But yet again you seem to gloss over the reason why people are upset, in favor of purely focusing on the fact that they're upset.

Runescape has a massive problem with MTX and exploiting player's FOMO. You know this. I know you're smart enough to get it. And that's why people are upset because you refuse to address it. And then there are bugs like Fire Giants that have yet to be addressed as well, amidst three weeks of concentrated predatory MTX events.

This is exactly what I'm talking about in the final paragraph. Whatever I can comment on, I comment on (on discord at least, where I'm pretty open to talking about almost - almost - everything). You're "calling me out" for not talking about the topic you (and to be fair, the majority of the sub) want to discuss, and essentially implying that I shouldn't discuss anything else in the meantime. The only possible outcome of that is no communication at all.

about 2 years ago - /u/JagexJack - Direct link

Originally posted by JoshOliday

Mod Jack,

https://www.reddit.com/r/runescape/comments/x1nzvu/comment/imiqci8/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3

See my comment to Mod Miva earlier today here. I can get behind a lot of what you've said here. I work in a production style environment with crunch periods and tight deadlines. Some days it gets frustrating hearing from a customer rep that someone was something as simple as not satisfied. Largely, I'm insulated from dealing with anyone directly and certainly wouldn't have to read that someone thinks I did a shit job, so my experience diverges from yours there. However, if I heard from anyone that customers in general were largely unsatisfied because orders kept being shipped out incorrectly, I'd start to think that there's a breakdown in our policies or communication somewhere. And from a lot of perspectives here, it starts with communication. I won't go over that whole comment I've linked here, but the long and short of it is, we've been able to have much healthier communication in the past, but for whatever reason, Jagex stopped putting in the work some time ago.

I personally really appreciated the month-to-month surprises of the Elder God Wars dungeons. The community had a lot of fun theorizing about what was coming next. It was nice to be here in 2021 because of that. But the secrecy over everything has become a bit tiresome. It was nice for like 3 months to know what was coming after the roadmap reveal, but now we're in the dark again. We don't know what to expect the rest of the year, what the long term plans for the story, skills, bug fixes, projects like the avatar rework, or, as shown the last two weeks, entire new game modes that appear out of nowhere. I think I honestly preferred hearing about content being worked on that might get shelved down the road than whatever we're in now. Maybe this is all a failing of an inexperienced or understaffed CM team. I like to think they are good at their jobs. I can appreciate Hooli trying to play hype man on stream, and Miva is clearly a good person who at least attempted to interact with us rather than leave us in the dark. Or maybe it's on management for some sort of policy change of keeping everything hush-hush. I can get the pros of that approach, but things like FSW should not have been dropped on the community like it was. There should have been a dialogue in developing the mode, much like what occurred in developing the M&S rework.

If developers choose to abandon the subreddit, then so be it. I really hope not, but I can't personally stop everyone here from posting what they do. I can downvote and report, but I think the mod team does what they can to handle the worst of the apples. I guess my TL;DR would be, we had plenty of fine communication in the past, and can again, but it can't just be the subreddit members policing themselves.

Communication in the sense you mean is a tricky one and I largely agree with where you're coming from. It's essentially partly a factor of the relationship between design and marketing (which I just need to resolve internally, no one is doing anything wrong it's just the responsibilities are not well defined) and the other is just that I'm basically new to the job. I've been spending the last few months developing what is essentially a vision statement for RS3 (and chatting about it a bit on discord with players) but I don't have anything "ready to go" yet. My rough plan is to do something like weekly fireside chats talking about various topics, most importantly like what my job even is, and in principle that could be a good way be a lot more communicative. Essentially the same as what I do on discord but to a wider audience. That's not a trivial thing to set up, but it's still my plan for the medium term.

about 2 years ago - /u/Mod_Miva - Direct link

Originally posted by TaifurinPriscilla

First off, sorry for "butting in", but I'd like to echo Josh' opinion. I know all these posts can take up vast amounts of extra time, and I know that said time isn't always (read: never, as with all jobs) a commodity the team has an overflowing abundance of, but just the feeling of having a little insight and feeling a little prepared helps tremendously.

To use a recent example, FSW would've been a fantastic longer-term conversation topic - maybe not for a BTS or Month Ahead, but in general as a talking point. Imagine if you'd had 3 months to go into FSW, the logic behind it, maybe even saying "we're going to try something new here, these few things (probably mtx and enticing exp rates) are going to be part of it and the event is aimed at lapsed players, but we also want existing players to feel like they can participate without feeling it's a waste of their time (insert the cosmetic rewards)" and then discussing the finer print like the highscores, world firsts and such (ideas that are in my opinion bad because we all know it'll go to people playing an unhealthy amount of time because of how it is designed), maybe even discussing the extent of mtx in a way that gauges community (dis)satisfaction or discussing how players would like to see the cosmetics reintroduced later on.

People would've known this content is several months away, there's loads of time to talk about it, it'll be revisited regularly and they get to help shape it, instead of the usual (no offense intended, and not indicative of the period where we had a roadmap) "wam bam thank you mam here's your content you've never heard of until today"... There'd be no massive uproar.

At the moment, due to how these updates are scheduled/explored but not really shown in any capacity to the active passionate playerbase until giving our opinion FEELS too late (it might not be, but it feels that way), we're constantly taken aback, and as such the result is that literally every person frequenting any sort of social media hops on to unleash a cascade of hellish incantations upon Jagex and each other, because it all needs to come out in one long barrage since there's literally no time for discourse.

Some people enjoy surprises. Most Runescape players don't enjoy having seemingly random or completely undisclosed updates sprung upon them from one day to the other. We (just speaking for myself really) want to know what's in the pipeline to a degree, want something to look forward to, and want to be able to discuss potential worries with Jagex in a TIMELY manner. Announce something two days before it happens, and 99% of the playerbase loses all literacy and defaults to "screw this update, it's garbage" because well there's 48 hours till it happens and there's no way to change it or discuss it at this point anyway. Of course it might just be a widely appreciated update and no harm is done, but if you ask me, the best course of action is to ensure that content requiring (in the eyes of players) some sort of revision, clarification, or in general a long hard look of disapproval, is given ample time for these interactions to happen.

Anyway, that was a loooong post regarding something entirely different from what I intended to talk about so I'll end it with a short and sweet: BTS and Month Ahead videos were absolutely fantastic and I would love to see them return in some fashion or another. Even if I'm not a fan of some content, having a (perhaps a bit long) sizzle reel of "beyond you digging for trinkets or farming Raksha, you can look forward to these things this coming month", and BTS videos help me stay connected to Jagex and the people there as human beings trying their best to make fun activities, instead of robots designed to provide me content for my dopamine-addicted brain that happily claps every time I see a skill go up by one or a lootbeam shine, and it also keeps me wanting to stick to the game instead of spending my time elsewhere.

I appreciate your feedback a lot. We need to discuss it with the team. I enjoy working on creative blogs, and we have many ideas for additional ways to communicate with our players. I agree that having blogs like "Month Ahead" and "Behind the Scenes" is a good touch, and as I already said, we will talk about it internally to see what can be done.

about 2 years ago - /u/Mod_Miva - Direct link

Originally posted by Lashdemonca

HEy miva! Just a passing through Good faith comment. I hope you all in the jagex offices are well and not getting too depressed about this. I absolutely adore the game and all of you.

PS: I think shauney spoiled all of us, hes an amazing man and frankly we didnt deserve him.

Hello, and thanks for your comment. I absolutely like being a community manager. Even after ten years of doing it, I still think it's my favourite work.