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| 3s | hello and welcome back to jagex hq uh |
|---|---|
| 7s | today i'm joined by mods timbo and jack |
| 8s | we're gonna be talking about game design |
| 10s | the concept of efficiency and the dead |
| 12s | content problem within runescape or if |
| 14s | it is even a problem hello i'm martimbo |
| 17s | principal game designer and balancer for |
| 18s | runescape |
| 20s | i'm not jack i'm uh as of recently the |
| 22s | lead designer on runescape i think when |
| 24s | we're talking about you know pleasing |
| 26s | the runescape player base it's obviously |
| 27s | a very difficult daunting task and it's |
| 29s | a task that hasn't really been broken |
| 31s | down necessarily where i don't think |
| 33s | there's a ton of insight external to you |
| 35s | know what the actual process is and how |
| 37s | you actually you know get say the ex |
| 38s | periods that you potentially land on or |
| 41s | uh you know what considerations you make |
| 42s | to prior content when you're making new |
| 44s | content so the the first thing i want to |
| 45s | touch on was xp rates so there's |
| 48s | obviously you know the issue of |
| 50s | balancing around players who only care |
| 52s | for the best rates imaginable and then |
| 55s | you've also got you know level brackets |
| 56s | and trying to fit in a game with you |
| 58s | know varied training methods all the way |
| 60s | up and uh i wanted to ask sort of what |
| 62s | goes into that balancing point so it |
| 64s | depends what we're balancing for |
| 65s | obviously um so if we are looking at a |
| 68s | mid-level update where we've |
| 69s | specifically targeted |
| 70s | hey we want to do when we update this |
| 72s | level 70 to 79 then we will focus on |
| 74s | those exp numbers very very very heavily |
| 77s | we have um |
| 78s | spreadsheets that we have there are |
| 80s | spreadsheets uh well my spreadsheets i |
| 82s | guess uh we have internally that sort of |
| 84s | uh show exp rates for all different |
| 86s | skills uh more specifically production |
| 88s | skills there is production and gathering |
| 90s | skills because they're easier to break |
| 91s | down on a spreadsheet than something |
| 93s | like uh in combat um so we have the |
| 96s | numbers we have the different boost |
| 97s | available we have keep adding updating |
| 99s | those boosts as well uh making sure that |
| 101s | we we we get accurate numbers for those |
| 103s | sorts of things and have it all down on |
| 104s | paper um so if we're doing an update |
| 106s | like that we will refer to the |
| 108s | spreadsheet and we'll look at these |
| 109s | numbers and be like okay cool what is |
| 111s | the best xp rate from 79 |
| 113s | for example if we look at i don't know |
| 115s | let's look at menopause um look at |
| 117s | profiting |
| 118s | agility i'd say jelly 77 is probably the |
| 120s | best experience and they'll be like okay |
| 121s | so we want to design it from 79 what is |
| 124s | xp rate how much better do you want the |
| 126s | experience to be um so we would say like |
| 128s | there are other requirements on the |
| 130s | update if there are requirements like |
| 131s | quest requirements or other external |
| 134s | requirements aren't agility related then |
| 136s | we would probably boost xp rates up so |
| 138s | if there was a huge grand master quest |
| 140s | on top and as a requirement for that |
| 141s | update we'd like to boost the xb numbers |
| 143s | by 10 20 something along those lines so |
| 145s | yeah there are a bunch of high level |
| 146s | objectives for the update overall um and |
| 148s | then the the developers go away and they |
| 150s | say well we want to add to that so for |
| 153s | the headset oasis they were like we want |
| 154s | to add a bunch of the peel stuff which |
| 156s | the honey will add a bit of agility you |
| 158s | want to add the uh the drain stuff and |
| 160s | that's that's all great and they come |
| 161s | back to us and that's fine in terms of |
| 163s | balancing and what the design vision for |
| 164s | that is um we look at what number we |
| 167s | look at a good gap |
| 169s | to fill so like uh we have um there's we |
| 172s | have tons of data in the game as well so |
| 174s | we know what level everyone is at we can |
| 176s | see break off points for certain levels |
| 178s | as well so like um people stop doing uh |
| 180s | for a common example would be stop |
| 182s | people stop uh doing prayer at 92. |
| 184s | people don't go above 92. that's a |
| 186s | surprise to me um there are obviously |
| 188s | there are breakpoints in 95 as well and |
| 190s | very very rare to see anyone between 96 |
| 192s | to 99 at 96 to 98 let's just say sorry |
| 195s | uh they either stop at 95 and then last |
| 197s | they're done because they've got the |
| 198s | tunnel and stuff or they go to 99 to get |
| 200s | the skill cape and then the next two |
| 202s | prayers are 99 as well so you have |
| 203s | access to all of this data so you've got |
| 205s | all of the |
| 206s | and your job i guess so you're looking |
| 208s | for gaps where people are maybe not |
| 211s | training across certain points and then |
| 212s | that would be a potential target for an |
| 214s | update yeah so the either the high level |
| 216s | design aims or the developer comes back |
| 217s | and they say hey i want to do a |
| 219s | digitally update um i don't know where |
| 221s | that generally |
| 222s | is but i know i want it to be a |
| 223s | relatively high level |
| 224s | but it's not the best thing in the game |
| 226s | so we're like okay cool so we look at |
| 228s | from level 60 to level 19 you say are |
| 230s | there any gaps here are there any are |
| 232s | there any gaps in people playing the |
| 233s | game like um are there quest |
| 235s | requirements that people are struggling |
| 236s | to get to um are there are they just |
| 238s | drop off points so people stop people |
| 240s | like to stop at every 10 levels so |
| 241s | people stop at 70 80 90 just because |
| 243s | it's a nice round now |
| 245s | yeah you get the capes as well if you |
| 247s | get got always to 1780 um so like can we |
| 249s | push them beyond that can we push them |
| 251s | from 70 to 74 like is there a good |
| 253s | reason enough to do that are there |
| 254s | questions things like that as well so |
| 256s | that that factors into sort of like what |
| 257s | level we go for um when we choose an |
| 260s | update like that um sometimes we do go |
| 262s | explicitly say like so when we did the |
| 264s | uh fishing hub and what it's called now |
| 266s | the actual real name of the fishing hub |
| 268s | deepsea fishing yeah yeah of course um |
| 269s | dc fishing's when we see fishing we |
| 271s | explicitly wanted to go for the very top |
| 272s | end um so we released sailfish released |
| 275s | um fishing frenzy and that's something |
| 276s | with with the top end in mind we didn't |
| 278s | have a gap to fill that's so interesting |
| 280s | i think that's very insightful as well |
| 282s | because |
| 283s | i don't think this is something that is |
| 284s | discussed frequently or even at all with |
| 286s | regard to the actual process and i think |
| 288s | at times as as players sometimes you'll |
| 290s | see something and you won't understand |
| 292s | just by looking at it the logic behind |
| 294s | it like i don't i don't have access to |
| 296s | that data i don't see that there's a gap |
| 297s | here it's like oh why is this mid-level |
| 298s | method coming out it's something that |
| 299s | you can say a lot i think a lot of |
| 300s | high-level players they see like oh 65 |
| 303s | this is garbage like why why release an |
| 305s | update 65 when i am not 65. i'm 99 i'm |
| 308s | going to do this isn't for me so it's |
| 309s | not just not just there not you know |
| 311s | everyone they know is nineteen exactly |
| 312s | all their friends not any on the climax |
| 313s | 99 the whole game is like |
| 315s | is max level apparently it's like why so |
| 318s | why why do that but of course they're |
| 320s | not we have a ton of players who who are |
| 323s | casual players we have a lot of players |
| 324s | who struggle to level certain skills we |
| 326s | have players who just don't like certain |
| 327s | methods so like maybe they do enjoy hats |
| 329s | oasis heads weights is very slightly |
| 331s | different to other training methods |
| 332s | around this level um not massively |
| 334s | because agility's agility but like um |
| 336s | it's very slightly different it's very |
| 337s | it's been more interesting it's a little |
| 338s | bit different so we look for those |
| 340s | factors as well |
| 342s | um but yeah i think players just see |
| 344s | dead content they're like oh this is |
| 345s | this is dead chronicles irrelevant to me |
| 347s | but there are a lot of factors into why |
| 348s | we do certain things i think just the |
| 350s | level of care that is put into you know |
| 352s | finding these exact kind of level gaps |
| 354s | and just the amount of analysis that's |
| 356s | actually conducted i think is really |
| 358s | interesting because you're absolutely |
| 359s | right that so often i will hear oh this |
| 361s | is dead content because it doesn't |
| 362s | pertain to me or this isn't the best xp |
| 364s | rate so it doesn't pertain to me um |
| 366s | follow-up question related to that if a |
| 368s | reward has a great use outside of a |
| 371s | training method is that factored into |
| 373s | the xp so would you drop the xp on a |
| 376s | method i mean an extreme example would |
| 378s | be masterwork of course or trim master |
| 379s | work where you get no exp for it but i |
| 381s | think in a less extreme case um let's |
| 383s | say the new arrows that just came out |
| 385s | after the extinction quest yeah are the |
| 387s | xp rates balanced around the fact that |
| 390s | they're also very useful and sought |
| 391s | after and powerful or does it not really |
| 393s | matter is it separate this is a |
| 394s | fletching update and then it's a pvm |
| 396s | thing after that they play a factor um |
| 400s | many many moons ago a room fest i we |
| 402s | talked about a five-year skilling plan |
| 404s | and we discussed there was a there's a |
| 406s | almost like a trifecta of different |
| 408s | factors when it comes to selling update |
| 410s | so there's terms of experience there's |
| 411s | terms of output so reward whether that |
| 414s | not that's not exclusively xp that's um |
| 416s | how useful is it to pvm um how much |
| 418s | money can i make from it um all that |
| 420s | sort of stuff and af ability and those |
| 422s | those are trifected that have effects on |
| 424s | each other so |
| 425s | um one thing cannot be super good |
| 428s | experience and also be super good fk and |
| 430s | also produce a |
| 432s | crapload of of reward that's that's not |
| 435s | what we're looking to do anymore these |
| 437s | days so if it's really afk able it's |
| 439s | probably got decent experience rates but |
| 441s | not but not on the top end and it |
| 443s | probably doesn't give you a very good |
| 444s | reward it probably gives you a reward |
| 446s | which is you sort to that skill or it's |
| 448s | a lower level but it's not going to be a |
| 450s | good reward for the for the general |
| 453s | things and also equally there could be a |
| 454s | really good reward that gives a lot of |
| 456s | experience a lot of um a lot of outside |
| 458s | use in pvm or in terms of uh gold |
| 460s | produced but it probably has low fk and |
| 463s | uh and is probably low experience rate |
| 465s | at the same time |
| 466s | okay there's um there's a specific |
| 468s | example i can give about on the master |
| 469s | of karma that you mentioned perfect that |
| 471s | one |
| 472s | even more so than like you're absolutely |
| 474s | right to say that like we don't want to |
| 476s | design things such that they're the best |
| 477s | method for every purpose |
| 479s | when it comes to the economy |
| 481s | actually those factors can't directly |
| 483s | contradict each other because the more |
| 484s | accessible something i mean like |
| 485s | obviously right the more afk able |
| 486s | something is the less profitable it is |
| 488s | because the more of that thing is being |
| 490s | is being poured into the economy and the |
| 492s | prices drop um |
| 494s | likewise if something is a very good xp |
| 495s | rate people will be doing it so if it |
| 497s | produces something as a side effect |
| 499s | um |
| 500s | then that thing will not be worth it'll |
| 502s | probably be out value if it's a good xp |
| 503s | rate that produces something that thing |
| 505s | will probably be out value um depending |
| 507s | on the context obviously so with |
| 508s | masterwork armor that was specifically |
| 510s | designed to give i think it gives like |
| 511s | one experience is it zero well it's zero |
| 513s | it gives one i think it's something like |
| 515s | that no it could it could give a token |
| 516s | amount it wouldn't really matter and |
| 517s | people look at it and they say well this |
| 518s | is this is the hardest most difficult |
| 520s | thing to smith in the game why doesn't |
| 521s | it give good smithing to me and the |
| 522s | answer is it's specifically intended to |
| 524s | not be a training method |
| 526s | because everything about masterwork |
| 527s | armor is intended to make it something |
| 528s | that you |
| 529s | smith for profit now actually in |
| 532s | practice that didn't work out that well |
| 533s | because people made it for themselves |
| 534s | because it wasn't intended to be used |
| 536s | this way but people found it really |
| 537s | rewarding to actually just do it |
| 538s | themselves so as far as i can see people |
| 540s | tend to make their own masterwork armor |
| 542s | rather than trade it it trades decent |
| 544s | the trade's okay but it's not it was not |
| 545s | it was intended to be like an exciting |
| 547s | market for smith's and i don't feel like |
| 549s | it's really accomplished that but that's |
| 551s | why it doesn't get xp because |
| 553s | you want it to retain its value yeah if |
| 555s | it was a really good if it was really |
| 556s | good xp people would be making yeah |
| 557s | there would be thousands of sets just |
| 559s | exactly |
| 560s | related to what you kind of spoke on |
| 563s | earlier with regard to you want to look |
| 565s | at the x periods how rewarding it is and |
| 566s | then how active it is how afk it is um i |
| 569s | want to talk about a recent update which |
| 571s | is crosses |
| 573s | and specifically the hunter skill |
| 575s | uh so basically the meta for hunter now |
| 578s | from level 40 all the way to 99 |
| 581s | is to enter a crosses instance as a solo |
| 584s | and just do the hunter node and then |
| 585s | teleport out and repeat it and that has |
| 587s | completely from an xp standpoint |
| 589s | that has taken out every other relevant |
| 591s | hunter method in the game it's faster |
| 593s | than big game hunter because it scales |
| 594s | all the way up with your level so at the |
| 596s | end game xp rates it's over one and a |
| 598s | half million just base raw xp |
| 600s | so i guess that's a method it's not |
| 603s | super afk but it's also not terribly |
| 604s | active it's not as active as big game |
| 606s | hunter it's not rewarding at all but the |
| 608s | xp rates are |
| 610s | absolutely nuts to the point of more |
| 612s | likely than not kind of eliminating most |
| 615s | other methods in the game so would that |
| 617s | be considered like a a flawed product as |
| 620s | a result of that |
| 622s | i would definitely say it's not |
| 624s | intentional not that we're going to nerf |
| 625s | it please don't worry about that yeah no |
| 627s | no plans in there right now |
| 629s | it's definitely an intentional thing it |
| 631s | reminds me a lot of uh you may remember |
| 633s | years and years ago engineering fishing |
| 635s | and enjoying that of course um again a |
| 638s | very unintentional method where players |
| 639s | would dive into c2 and they would fish |
| 641s | everything on in on on the on the floor |
| 644s | and would cut everything and then leave |
| 645s | because that was the most efficient way |
| 647s | to do those methods that again that |
| 648s | wasn't intentional but again it does |
| 650s | play into some of the factors we talked |
| 652s | about like um it's high xp it's high |
| 654s | effort um i think the closest thing is |
| 656s | probably not as high as would perhaps |
| 658s | like although i guess you could |
| 660s | technically fail and and zonk out it is |
| 662s | hard to do it's hard to do but |
| 664s | technically you could technically do it |
| 665s | but it gives a very little very little |
| 667s | reward in terms of um money in terms of |
| 670s | um like there's no you don't get the |
| 671s | loot from process because you're not |
| 672s | gonna yeah |
| 678s | whereas other hunter methods are |
| 679s | chompers there are railing jumpers there |
| 681s | are totals there are other things they |
| 683s | provide you different levels of afk |
| 685s | ability but also different levels of the |
| 686s | reward as well so i think it's not an |
| 688s | ideal place i think of the xp rate |
| 691s | wasn't as dominating as it was like i |
| 693s | think hundreds of one to forty's |
| 694s | dominated by um |
| 696s | it's uh tropical whitetails i believe |
| 698s | right to a certain place he used to be |
| 699s | vines people for a long time just |
| 700s | hunting rabbits um christ um but yeah |
| 703s | that was an unintentional thing that |
| 704s | wasn't meant to be due um i think that |
| 707s | it's it plays into the trifecta thing |
| 709s | we're talking about it's definitely not |
| 710s | in the right place and that is |
| 712s | definitely too strong it's it feels that |
| 715s | one that one's an interesting example |
| 716s | because it feels wrong right yes like if |
| 718s | we designed a method with that amount of |
| 720s | effort and that amount of rate it might |
| 722s | be a good design i think what the reason |
| 724s | it feels wrong on crosses is because it |
| 726s | feels like you're playing the content |
| 727s | wrong or like it feels like you're |
| 728s | exploiting the contents yeah in advance |
| 730s | it definitely does it also feels like |
| 732s | the fact that it doesn't change all the |
| 734s | way up from 40 to all the way to 99 and |
| 736s | it is the best xp method every single |
| 738s | level through that i think is an aspect |
| 740s | that feels wrong it feels kind of but |
| 742s | the cheating or explaining but i mean |
| 744s | the example that brings to mind for me |
| 745s | there would be runespan which similarly |
| 747s | yeah effectively replaced an entire |
| 749s | scale and that was also unintentional |
| 751s | and we nerfed it and then we reverted |
| 753s | the nerf because actually |
| 755s | there was there was a lot of outcry over |
| 756s | it and and |
| 757s | although some people disagree i think |
| 759s | the general feeling is that is that the |
| 760s | skill is in a healthier place okay so |
| 762s | actually to that tune take me through |
| 764s | what happened with runespan the story is |
| 766s | is is fairly straightforward in the |
| 767s | sense of like it went out i think that i |
| 770s | don't know if it was an error in the |
| 771s | balancing or just something unforeseen |
| 774s | that does happen sometimes let's goals |
| 776s | and those nodes were like like 50 too |
| 779s | good and they didn't disappear as fast |
| 781s | as they were as they were intended |
| 783s | so those nodes appeared too often |
| 786s | right okay yeah and because they were |
| 788s | they were supposed to be uh like |
| 790s | distraction effectively from stifling |
| 792s | from |
| 793s | what they're called now uh are they |
| 794s | asteroids and hounds and yeah the hounds |
| 796s | and the others you're supposed to you're |
| 798s | cycling from them and occasionally a |
| 800s | node would show up and you'd be like oh |
| 802s | cool i can do this no because i'm in the |
| 803s | right out level and i'm going to get the |
| 805s | cool runes from it um but what ended up |
| 807s | happening was that you were just |
| 809s | constantly on these nodes all the time |
| 811s | and as we later on found out players |
| 813s | would just hunt for these nodes rather |
| 815s | than sit around and wait for them so |
| 816s | it's supposed to be a |
| 817s | uh a distraction |
| 819s | um but what ended up happening was that |
| 821s | that was the main method players and |
| 822s | doing because that's where the bonus xp |
| 824s | was applied because it was a distraction |
| 826s | it wasn't best all the time so therefore |
| 827s | you got more experience |
| 829s | um as a result but people were like |
| 830s | players like now i'm gonna it's gonna go |
| 832s | to these three islands and just hop all |
| 833s | the time and make sure i get all the uh |
| 835s | the juicy knows that i can um but yeah i |
| 838s | mean the |
| 839s | runespan was supposed to be an |
| 840s | alternative training method room |
| 841s | crafting at the time i was preventable |
| 843s | release was was a nightmare it wasn't |
| 845s | very profitable it wasn't very |
| 846s | interesting it wasn't very good we have |
| 848s | since then introduced a lot of different |
| 850s | methods to runecrafting to the point |
| 852s | where |
| 852s | uh |
| 853s | rinspan is no longer the method people |
| 855s | do even if you're afk you might as well |
| 858s | just do normal runes because you're |
| 859s | going to get um more xp and more money |
| 862s | um just running them half as efficiently |
| 863s | as someone else |
| 865s | yeah i mean rune crafting i think |
| 866s | runespan is still the meta for the early |
| 868s | levels but as soon as you can supervise |
| 870s | you yeah as soon as you can you can do a |
| 871s | biscuit crafting it's good gp it's good |
| 873s | xp it's yeah it's difficult |
| 876s | a lot more engaged yeah green crafting |
| 877s | at this point i think is |
| 879s | i mean without getting into room costs |
| 880s | and that stuff because that's a very |
| 882s | very different uh last project i was |
| 883s | directly involved with |
| 885s | room costs or making sure making rooms |
| 887s | valuable okay there's a project myself |
| 889s | and what deg worked on in 2013 2014 |
| 892s | called the roon value project |
| 894s | um because runes won't went with |
| 896s | anything |
| 897s | a lot of players wouldn't know this a |
| 899s | long time ago runes were worthless so |
| 901s | myself and my dad we that's when we made |
| 903s | um |
| 904s | uh room versus the facebook machine yeah |
| 906s | um so we we made a reason to runs to be |
| 909s | consumed and we created a product that |
| 911s | was probably too versatile but is very |
| 913s | very useful and very valuable and also |
| 915s | limited by supply as well you can only |
| 917s | get x amount a day um that is very |
| 920s | intentionally in that way so that it's a |
| 922s | limited supply so more players have to |
| 924s | go engage with it and then if more |
| 926s | players engage with it there's more |
| 927s | runes getting sunk out of the game and |
| 929s | therefore more useful with wax but also |
| 930s | we removed whatever runes from a lot of |
| 932s | drop tables you might remember like |
| 934s | ironically now fire giants don't drop |
| 935s | fire runes anymore like that sort of |
| 937s | thing but we we didn't we did that at |
| 939s | the time um we took a lot of soul ruins |
| 941s | off as well even though solar wasn't out |
| 944s | um seoul |
| 945s | ruins became more valuable and there's |
| 946s | been been a recent |
| 947s | uh problem for us yeah there's a new |
| 949s | solar in crisis now yeah which we we try |
| 952s | to um uh |
| 953s | we tried to fix recently with making |
| 955s | more soar range from salt uh yes i |
| 957s | remember teasing deg for years |
| 958s | afterwards i was going to add fire runes |
| 960s | to drop tables again yeah i can't |
| 962s | remember how many there was some |
| 963s | specific number of fire runes i said i |
| 964s | was going to add to everything's dropped |
| 965s | over like a million or something myself |
| 967s | my yeah my myself and more deck we had a |
| 968s | celebration from firearms 800 gp |
| 971s | because they had gone from five mission |
| 973s | accomplishments they've gone from five |
| 974s | gp to 100 gpa like we did it but players |
| 977s | weren't annoyed like i think i don't |
| 979s | know if you're personal experience i |
| 980s | mean either my personal beliefs players |
| 982s | weren't annoyed that we did that i think |
| 983s | players want light runes and rune |
| 985s | crafting to be worthwhile uh viswax was |
| 987s | a very useful uh reward it did a whole |
| 990s | bunch of things it kind of fixed auras a |
| 992s | little bit by resetting cooldowns um it |
| 995s | was a cool mini game that spawned a |
| 996s | bunch of fcs and like a lot of community |
| 998s | interaction and getting the right runes |
| 1000s | per day there was a personal rune as |
| 1001s | well but um there was what room is it |
| 1003s | today what room is it this week that |
| 1005s | sort of thing and it touched a lot of |
| 1006s | other things like it did divine |
| 1007s | locations it did |
| 1009s | loads of other bunch of stuff so we |
| 1010s | managed to create a cool update out of |
| 1013s | an economy-focused design it's |
| 1014s | interesting actually in the context of |
| 1015s | this topic because in a sense runes were |
| 1017s | dead content yes yeah yeah and but then |
| 1019s | but then and the whole room crafting |
| 1021s | skill itself was useless because it just |
| 1022s | made a product that wasn't working yeah |
| 1025s | i think it would have been okay if it |
| 1026s | was just a handful of old items it |
| 1027s | didn't matter it'd be fine but because |
| 1029s | there was an entire skill focused around |
| 1030s | those items yeah it felt it was a very |
| 1032s | lean update it was just myself and modeg |
| 1035s | we spent six weeks on it i think i mean |
| 1038s | there's a lot of uh |
| 1040s | analysis and things like making sure we |
| 1041s | got all the drop tables um for like so |
| 1043s | where do fire runs come from oh there's |
| 1045s | a load of them come from these these |
| 1047s | specific cases we took them off there um |
| 1050s | our players going to do rune crafting |
| 1051s | after this hopefully um we ended up |
| 1054s | doing a couple more crafting updates in |
| 1056s | the future like uh there's the we had |
| 1058s | the different pouches and things as well |
| 1060s | um |
| 1061s | the the huge pouch and things like that |
| 1062s | afterwards which helped a lot as well |
| 1064s | but yeah um so related related to that i |
| 1067s | think that's a super interesting insight |
| 1069s | too to get into |
| 1070s | yeah the perfect example of something |
| 1072s | that was dead content that was kind of |
| 1074s | brought back um |
| 1076s | viswax i know it's like a big |
| 1077s | contentious balancing topic even even |
| 1080s | now and it's not so much for main |
| 1081s | accounts |
| 1083s | but specifically for iron man and i |
| 1084s | wanted to kind of segue through that and |
| 1087s | kind of discuss that a little bit and |
| 1088s | talk about sort of what |
| 1090s | amount of effort or time goes into |
| 1092s | specifically balancing around iron man |
| 1094s | because i know when iron mode initially |
| 1095s | was released i believe the whole point |
| 1098s | was kind of to not balance around it and |
| 1099s | if it was going to be super hard that |
| 1101s | was the point and i think the mentality |
| 1103s | is probably if you look at recent drop |
| 1104s | tables has probably shifted but |
| 1106s | specifically on viswax um that is now a |
| 1109s | time gate for for a lot of players where |
| 1111s | there's only so much viswax you can get |
| 1113s | it's not limited by your runes it's just |
| 1115s | there's a daily limit of a hundred a day |
| 1116s | and i've seen a ton of like proposed oh |
| 1119s | let iron man make different amounts of |
| 1120s | is or let an untradeable amount of his |
| 1122s | cost extra runes or or whatever else is |
| 1125s | that something that has you know made it |
| 1126s | to your to your radar at any point |
| 1129s | it has um the entire topic of balancing |
| 1132s | ironman is |
| 1133s | genuinely we don't |
| 1135s | um |
| 1136s | we do consider i men are considered and |
| 1138s | we have a lot of internal people who |
| 1139s | play iron mn and they speak up for the |
| 1141s | iman themselves and like say hey |
| 1144s | what could we do different for iron man |
| 1145s | this isn't such a i don't swear there's |
| 1147s | such a huge grind for them um |
| 1150s | in terms of viswax it's a very difficult |
| 1153s | decision because this wax solely relies |
| 1155s | on the very limited amount of supply |
| 1156s | that comes to the game because of |
| 1158s | tradable commodity |
| 1159s | yes ironmen could get access to more |
| 1162s | viswax |
| 1164s | there are that's untradable but what |
| 1165s | about other players does that make it |
| 1166s | unfair that they they can get why don't |
| 1168s | normal players get a hundred extra on |
| 1170s | tradable facebooks per day and if |
| 1171s | regular players did that'll completely |
| 1173s | screw the economy of viswax that like |
| 1175s | that's a hundred extra supply of |
| 1177s | viswacks that doesn't need to be |
| 1178s | purchased from the green exchange that's |
| 1180s | not coming from a different player i |
| 1181s | mean like there's huge repercussions for |
| 1182s | the economy of runes and viswacks as a |
| 1185s | result so this the part of the reason |
| 1188s | why we haven't done that and |
| 1189s | specifically for ironman um |
| 1192s | normally the iron man problem comes down |
| 1194s | to economy issues so like um i know that |
| 1196s | uh |
| 1198s | when we when i was designing archaeology |
| 1200s | we were talking about iron man and |
| 1201s | archaeology and um because the whole |
| 1203s | premise of archaeology is that |
| 1205s | you can i mean numbers are probably |
| 1206s | different now but the original balancing |
| 1208s | was you've got five unfinished projects |
| 1210s | an hour from from excavating you could |
| 1212s | only you only excavate enough materials |
| 1214s | to finish three every five so if you |
| 1216s | wanted to if you want to get the extra |
| 1218s | two projects finished in that hour you |
| 1220s | had to buy materials now of course for |
| 1222s | ironman that they don't get to buy those |
| 1223s | materials like iron man are just stuck |
| 1225s | at their six percent xp rate all the |
| 1227s | time because they're iron man we decided |
| 1229s | and we decided that for the overall |
| 1231s | health of the game in terms of the |
| 1232s | economy and the skill design for |
| 1234s | arcology that was fine i mean i meant |
| 1237s | listening to this i'm probably like |
| 1238s | that's not fine and screaming at me |
| 1239s | right now i had to do the exact same |
| 1240s | thing with mining and smithing that that |
| 1242s | it's unintuitive from an ironman |
| 1243s | perspective that the amount of ore you |
| 1245s | gather when mining and the amount of oil |
| 1247s | you consume when smithing don't match |
| 1250s | but if they did match |
| 1251s | all would be pointless yeah like all |
| 1253s | would be meaningless it might as well |
| 1255s | just be untradable because or not exist |
| 1257s | like if you know you level your mining |
| 1259s | skill and don't generate any or when you |
| 1260s | level your smith's gonna don't use any |
| 1261s | ore comes out equally right yeah then it |
| 1263s | has to be smithing has to need more |
| 1266s | than mining consumes to get to 99. |
| 1268s | because maxing is such a basic part of |
| 1270s | our game's meta yeah of course but if i |
| 1272s | max both skills i need to need more or |
| 1275s | otherwise mining wouldn't but it's worth |
| 1276s | mentioning that need to exist material |
| 1278s | caches and archaeology stem from this |
| 1280s | conversation that we had so material |
| 1281s | caches exist for iron men they didn't |
| 1283s | exist in the original design oh okay um |
| 1286s | i mean like maybe that's my problem as a |
| 1287s | designer but they didn't exist in the |
| 1289s | original design and we were we play |
| 1291s | tested it and we thought about it like |
| 1293s | what happened well why can't i why can't |
| 1296s | i go get um like blood of august why |
| 1298s | can't i go get that specific material |
| 1300s | and it's like well no the intention was |
| 1301s | that you have to go to these places and |
| 1303s | the way they're balancing works out |
| 1304s | probably doesn't work in in actuality |
| 1306s | but |
| 1307s | every hotspot has a favored material so |
| 1310s | there's a 40 chance of orcas on this on |
| 1313s | this on this hot spot but another hot |
| 1314s | spot that has orcus is totally 20 the |
| 1317s | intention was that you went out into the |
| 1318s | world and did regular archaeology and |
| 1320s | got those materials at the same time and |
| 1322s | the materials you didn't need you sold |
| 1324s | or you banked or you kept or whatever |
| 1326s | but was he also getting additional |
| 1327s | projects which meant higher deficit of |
| 1329s | experience um and then there was like |
| 1332s | what about iron man this sounds like a |
| 1333s | horrible ironman experience if i'm |
| 1334s | missing like five blood of walkers |
| 1337s | yeah having to have a one in five chance |
| 1339s | of getting a blood orchestra yeah it |
| 1340s | sounds like it sounds like a nightmare |
| 1342s | and i'm just collecting more and more |
| 1343s | projects something that came up in the |
| 1344s | play session was it felt bad to get more |
| 1346s | projects yeah while i'm collecting |
| 1348s | materials for the project i've got and i |
| 1350s | get another project and even though you |
| 1352s | could just throw it away right but yeah |
| 1353s | you wouldn't want to feels bad |
| 1356s | you spent 20 minutes you'd rather it was |
| 1357s | another material so like it stemmed from |
| 1359s | that conversation about what about iron |
| 1361s | how does it feel for iron man and that's |
| 1362s | where materials caches came where |
| 1363s | terraces came from if we added in an |
| 1365s | iron man exception for this wax it would |
| 1367s | just it would set a precedent that would |
| 1369s | prompt people to want iron man |
| 1370s | exceptions for everything else maybe |
| 1371s | maybe you could say oh viswax is |
| 1373s | actually 10 times worse than the next |
| 1374s | bad problem maybe |
| 1376s | but then the net people would |
| 1377s | immediately start looking at the next |
| 1378s | problem and say will you fix this right |
| 1379s | why are you facing this |
| 1380s | uh and suddenly iron man would have |
| 1382s | dozens of exceptions for all sorts of |
| 1384s | different pieces of content |
| 1385s | to an extent wouldn't be iron man |
| 1387s | anymore i mean i think |
| 1388s | i feel like it wouldn't be iron man |
| 1389s | anymore iron man i mean i think i think |
| 1391s | that's that's almost a discussion itself |
| 1393s | is like what makes iron man mode iron |
| 1395s | mode because the i mean the idea when |
| 1398s | iron man first came out was like you |
| 1400s | stand alone it was very much it was |
| 1401s | supposed to be a solo only game mode |
| 1403s | that was very very tough um correct me |
| 1405s | if i'm wrong there no no but uh it has |
| 1407s | you know very much shifted now to it's a |
| 1409s | casual game mode for a lot of players |
| 1412s | i guess |
| 1412s | a little bit it doesn't necessarily that |
| 1414s | it was intended to be difficult but we |
| 1416s | just sort of assumed it would be |
| 1417s | difficult yeah because participating in |
| 1418s | the economy is such a big part of what |
| 1419s | runescape is |
| 1421s | the idea that you didn't have access to |
| 1422s | that resource sounded hard like that's |
| 1425s | that's demanding i think that makes a |
| 1427s | certain amount of sense that you can't |
| 1428s | necessarily balance for both i would say |
| 1430s | though too in my own personal experience |
| 1432s | the updates that are economically good |
| 1435s | also can work out very well for ironman |
| 1437s | so i i think you you can potentially hit |
| 1440s | both depending on how it works so these |
| 1442s | very like robust drop tables on the |
| 1444s | elder gallery's loots um that were done |
| 1446s | i believe predominantly by mod sponge i |
| 1448s | think a lot of them hit many of the |
| 1450s | items that iron men |
| 1451s | felt they didn't want to have to go |
| 1453s | after and collect they're an endgame pvm |
| 1455s | or they should not be picking cave night |
| 1457s | shades sure but but also that that helps |
| 1459s | regular players as well yes it does like |
| 1461s | like that's that's an instance where |
| 1462s | that both players can benefit like a |
| 1464s | regular player doesn't really care if |
| 1465s | they get kidnapped like well i could |
| 1466s | have just traded for it bro but like |
| 1469s | it's nice it's a nice drop but for iron |
| 1471s | man it's a huge it's a huge boon for |
| 1473s | that it's a massive time save for for |
| 1475s | iron man yeah but like in those |
| 1476s | instances that's fine when when both |
| 1478s | both parties can benefit well when |
| 1480s | normal players don't care |
| 1482s | yeah |
| 1484s | yeah absolutely |
| 1488s | they do think about these things i know |
| 1489s | that much shogun um does a lot that did |
| 1492s | a lot to drop people now to gobble |
| 1493s | dungeon as well and he was thinking |
| 1494s | about what to drop which is a difficult |
| 1496s | problem in itself a whole conversation |
| 1498s | as well um but also try and ensure that |
| 1501s | different types of players are involved |
| 1502s | in that sort of thing as well at the |
| 1503s | same time yeah yeah i mean anytime we |
| 1505s | can if if the design makes it better for |
| 1508s | iron man and regular players yeah we |
| 1510s | would do that yeah it's only when |
| 1511s | there's a trade-off between the needs of |
| 1513s | iron men and the needs of regular |
| 1514s | players if there's a problem so there's |
| 1515s | no intentionality to like keep iron man |
| 1517s | mode hard necessarily it's more just not |
| 1520s | hot enough right yeah okay so there's no |
| 1522s | we don't need to go out of our way no |
| 1523s | i'm just going to do that relating to |
| 1525s | drop tables if we could talk about elder |
| 1527s | godwars and in particular the impact the |
| 1530s | elder godwin's engine has had on |
| 1532s | uh the early game |
| 1534s | because |
| 1535s | in the past even if you made an account |
| 1537s | i made an account three years ago |
| 1538s | hardcore from scratch and i made a new |
| 1540s | one three weeks ago and much of the |
| 1543s | early game from a few years ago is |
| 1545s | completely skipped over by elder godwars |
| 1547s | um so you've got for example crosses |
| 1550s | drops such a ridiculous amount of charms |
| 1552s | and so does the arch graysor that |
| 1553s | there's no need to even really pick up |
| 1554s | charms from anything else throughout |
| 1556s | your your adventure and you're gonna |
| 1558s | have enough to finish to finish |
| 1559s | summoning um same thing with commons |
| 1561s | early game um iron man or even main |
| 1564s | account it's hard to come by like raw gp |
| 1566s | you can use uh whether it's alcohols or |
| 1568s | whatever else and now the the meta has |
| 1571s | very strongly shifted to you can do zero |
| 1573s | mechanic arch glasor you can |
| 1576s | do crosses even in a 50 mass and you |
| 1579s | will make millions of raw gp every |
| 1580s | single hour and that allows you to |
| 1582s | really jump start the early game and fly |
| 1584s | to those early levels so my question |
| 1586s | kind of pertaining to that is was that |
| 1588s | intentional to get people onto the new |
| 1590s | content and fast tracking the early game |
| 1593s | um or was it more just as a result of |
| 1595s | the you know the balancing that happened |
| 1598s | with regard to those uh those bosses and |
| 1600s | it's sort of an unintended um mechanic |
| 1603s | i think it's a little bit of both well i |
| 1604s | wouldn't say it was unintended um |
| 1607s | so our philosophy the last couple of |
| 1608s | years has been something we call |
| 1610s | internally progressive balancing okay um |
| 1612s | so progressive balancing is where we |
| 1615s | sort of like |
| 1616s | don't take into account older companies |
| 1618s | of content as much as we're used to so |
| 1620s | you might remember uh um when we release |
| 1623s | like an example by in six in my mind is |
| 1625s | chaotic claws |
| 1626s | like um we we held up the price of |
| 1629s | dragon claws by requiring it as a as a |
| 1632s | piece of uh equipment to make chaotic |
| 1634s | claws and we've that we did we have done |
| 1636s | that a ton throughout the game that used |
| 1638s | to be our philosophy was making sure |
| 1640s | that all content wasn't devalued in any |
| 1642s | way as best as we as we possibly could i |
| 1644s | mean in my jack's example during the |
| 1646s | minus 15 update um he made sure that |
| 1648s | next arnold was still viable and still |
| 1650s | useful and still had a place |
| 1652s | i think the value of a next kill went up |
| 1653s | after the money |
| 1655s | exactly despite massively nerfing the |
| 1657s | rune drops yeah um and that was that was |
| 1659s | as a result of us trying to uphold old |
| 1661s | pieces of content um we have shifted |
| 1663s | from that mentality to making sure that |
| 1666s | all content exists as a legacy you can |
| 1668s | go back and play it and it still has its |
| 1671s | niches and still viabilities but it's |
| 1673s | not there to be held up anymore by okay |
| 1676s | um it's not like |
| 1678s | that content has been and gone it had |
| 1680s | its place it had its time much like the |
| 1682s | much great vhs tapes it had its place in |
| 1684s | its time cds as well they had their time |
| 1687s | there's no point in trying to uphold |
| 1688s | these older pieces of content um |
| 1691s | any longer and i think that's just the |
| 1692s | case without the gobbles dungeon out of |
| 1694s | goals dungeon we tried to make sure that |
| 1696s | it was a the best place to get money and |
| 1698s | it was worthwhile modern players time |
| 1701s | and uh the specific drops that were on |
| 1703s | it were carefully selected to make sure |
| 1705s | that we did out node some older older |
| 1707s | pieces of content and all the different |
| 1709s | methods um |
| 1711s | to what extent i think is the there's |
| 1713s | the other side of that coin where um |
| 1716s | it's probably a little bit too far for a |
| 1719s | for a low-level player because |
| 1721s | things like uh no uh no mechanic |
| 1723s | upglasor was intended to be a pvm |
| 1726s | learning mechanic and not a |
| 1729s | charm farming or just making money |
| 1732s | raw gp and best charm farming of all |
| 1734s | time it wasn't intended to be that |
| 1737s | that method but what the design |
| 1738s | intention was to out-mode older pieces |
| 1740s | of content and for the new content to be |
| 1743s | uh way more profitable and way more |
| 1744s | worthwhile than older pieces of content |
| 1746s | you mentioned that that happened in the |
| 1747s | last couple years was there anything |
| 1749s | that brought on that sort of that sort |
| 1751s | of change because i don't know like yeah |
| 1753s | masterwork is a great example it you |
| 1754s | know requires you to you know it's sort |
| 1756s | of like the defender grind if you want |
| 1758s | to get a tier 90 defender you need to go |
| 1759s | back through the warriors guild get the |
| 1761s | dragon and then you'll get the 270 and |
| 1763s | then you get the tier 80 from next and |
| 1764s | then you can go to california after that |
| 1766s | and i think it's it's kind of a it's |
| 1767s | just kind of a holistic judgment that |
| 1769s | gradually over time that building |
| 1771s | building requirements on top of other |
| 1772s | requirements just gets creakier and |
| 1773s | creakier |
| 1774s | and and and stranger and stranger and |
| 1776s | we're still maintaining old content |
| 1778s | because that old content is you know the |
| 1779s | amount of content in the game |
| 1781s | increases and if all of that content is |
| 1783s | still farmed and and |
| 1785s | and viable then suddenly we have to |
| 1786s | worry about the balancing of not five |
| 1788s | bosses but yeah 50 bosses i think it's |
| 1790s | just the sheer practicality of holding |
| 1792s | 21 years worth of content exactly um |
| 1795s | just makes incredibly difficult to |
| 1796s | design anything in the game um like |
| 1800s | how do you design something that is both |
| 1802s | wanted by by modern players but also is |
| 1805s | upheld up holding older pieces of |
| 1806s | content so hey there's we're going to |
| 1808s | release a new level 90 pickaxe but it |
| 1811s | now requires the pickaxe of song of song |
| 1813s | on earth and |
| 1814s | like a dragon pickaxe and a gilded |
| 1816s | dragon pickaxe and also you have to go |
| 1818s | do like a thousand hours of lava flow |
| 1819s | mine like it's a little ridiculous it |
| 1821s | just becomes |
| 1822s | just becomes ridiculous at that point so |
| 1824s | you have to say like well no we want |
| 1826s | players to play in the new content we |
| 1827s | want players playing good content um |
| 1830s | so make sure that the new content does |
| 1832s | out mode and out surpass the piece of |
| 1834s | his content so make sure that players |
| 1835s | are playing the best piece content that |
| 1836s | we're releasing because arrow goals |
| 1838s | dungeon i think is some of the best |
| 1839s | content we've released for a long long |
| 1840s | time |
| 1841s | um and we don't mind that people are |
| 1843s | going to three rather than two like |
| 1845s | that's good exactly okay |
| 1848s | it's worth saying it does depend on the |
| 1849s | content though like this philosophy yes |
| 1851s | like with mining and smithing there's a |
| 1853s | big controversial update |
| 1855s | like it made a lot of changes that were |
| 1856s | controversial right salvage was |
| 1857s | controversial changing the values of all |
| 1859s | the ruins controversial stone spirits |
| 1861s | were controversial like there was a lot |
| 1862s | there especially related to the topic of |
| 1864s | drop tables there was a potential for |
| 1866s | that but we were very worried on launch |
| 1867s | about there was going to be a disaster |
| 1869s | and and so we made this we made sort of |
| 1872s | um |
| 1873s | what's the right word and we made very |
| 1875s | cautious decisions of like well since |
| 1877s | we're worried about this update |
| 1879s | let's make sure that we're paying |
| 1880s | careful attention to next let's make |
| 1881s | sure that we're paying careful attention |
| 1882s | to all these other older pieces of |
| 1884s | content like you get the example of the |
| 1885s | pickaxe right it still requires you to |
| 1887s | go do all these old things because we |
| 1888s | didn't want mining and smithing to be |
| 1890s | the runespan effectively of like |
| 1892s | everyone just sits in the art center's |
| 1893s | guild and no one ever leaves and none of |
| 1894s | them like there's like 20 years of |
| 1896s | mining smithing content we didn't want |
| 1898s | to just make it all redundant overnight |
| 1899s | it would have been a hell of a lot less |
| 1900s | work if we just ignored it all and just |
| 1901s | like turned it all off or balanced it so |
| 1903s | it was irrelevant but we wanted it to |
| 1905s | still feel like mining and smithing |
| 1908s | whereas without the god was we were a |
| 1909s | lot more confident in the update like |
| 1911s | this is great this is amazing content |
| 1912s | it's really really good we don't mind |
| 1914s | that it makes some older content |
| 1915s | redundant because actually we've got all |
| 1917s | this amazing yeah you suppose you'd |
| 1918s | rather people play the new stuff as good |
| 1920s | and as up-to-date as opposed to like |
| 1922s | they're awesome we'll do this like the |
| 1924s | zuck capes require the killing yes they |
| 1926s | do so like we there there are some |
| 1928s | places where we still do this when it |
| 1929s | makes sense for the progression that we |
| 1931s | did have a conversation where zuck capes |
| 1933s | were tradable um we had a conversation |
| 1935s | where zucchinis didn't require killing |
| 1937s | games as well yeah you'd be just you |
| 1938s | defeated zuck and yeah you've got the |
| 1940s | cave but we came to the conclusion that |
| 1942s | no we we like the idea that there's all |
| 1944s | the content you go through the the the |
| 1946s | elder grind the elder killing on the |
| 1948s | elder |
| 1949s | um the |
| 1951s | you know all the pieces of content you |
| 1952s | go through chad you go through um hara |
| 1954s | ken and you go to zuck like it felt a |
| 1956s | nice piece of aggression for that for |
| 1957s | that slot for that cape and we will |
| 1960s | uphold those certain things where we |
| 1961s | think is worthwhile and and adds to the |
| 1963s | content rather than i think |
| 1965s | in my like personal opinion that's a |
| 1966s | really good example of it done pretty |
| 1968s | much perfectly because it thematically |
| 1969s | makes sense and it also makes a lot of |
| 1972s | sense when you're looking at lapsed |
| 1973s | players or players that have had to do |
| 1974s | this past grind and they don't want |
| 1975s | something they've done in the past to be |
| 1976s | completely it's prestigious right that's |
| 1978s | the thing yeah like |
| 1980s | it's prestigious content though it's not |
| 1981s | just like oh i went i happened to get a |
| 1983s | dragon pickaxe drop luckily from the |
| 1985s | battlefield the cow's battlefield it's a |
| 1987s | piece of producer's content like i i've |
| 1989s | killed dad i've killed harukin and now |
| 1990s | i'm now i've killed zuck like it's a |
| 1992s | progression of the fight kill if i kill |
| 1994s | hits differently like to say barrows |
| 1996s | yeah or god was one like it's |
| 1998s | prestigious in a way that those those |
| 2000s | other content kind of just aren't yeah |
| 2001s | yeah no i i would totally agree with |
| 2003s | that i think personally |
| 2005s | yeah there's a line i am more on team i |
| 2008s | think i'm more on team elder godwars was |
| 2010s | good |
| 2011s | but for whatever reason it still sits |
| 2013s | strangely with me that a lot of the |
| 2014s | early game is is kind of made obviously |
| 2016s | i know a lot of players feel the same |
| 2017s | way about maybe like a mini game like |
| 2019s | trouble brewing that has kind of kind of |
| 2020s | died off and i wonder if it's mostly a |
| 2022s | nostalgia thing because i've made a ton |
| 2024s | of accounts and i've played through |
| 2025s | these things in the past and it's kind |
| 2026s | of strange to see oh no one will ever go |
| 2028s | do that thing that i you know spend a |
| 2030s | lot of time doing i remember he's doing |
| 2032s | and i wonder if it's a lot of that |
| 2033s | because i think logically speaking for a |
| 2035s | new player that's way better get them |
| 2037s | playing the brand new stuff that just |
| 2038s | came out that is up to date but i think |
| 2040s | yeah sometimes it can uh i think it can |
| 2042s | rub some people the wrong way i mean you |
| 2044s | you alluded you alluded to with your |
| 2045s | closest um hunter example earlier that |
| 2047s | like i think there probably is a line |
| 2049s | where like as you said we want we want |
| 2051s | people to do the new content we don't |
| 2052s | mind if the people who were doing god |
| 2053s | wars 2 are now doing gold wars 3. that's |
| 2055s | that's good if people are only doing |
| 2057s | gold wars 3 for the entire game that's |
| 2059s | yeah that's a little too far actually is |
| 2061s | that's not intended and that's not what |
| 2062s | we would want it doesn't necessarily |
| 2065s | mean that it's |
| 2066s | a big enough problem to nerf it |
| 2068s | so like there's there's a delica balance |
| 2070s | of like of like it's too good |
| 2072s | and ideally we wouldn't necessarily have |
| 2074s | chosen to do it that way in the first |
| 2075s | place but perhaps changing it now does |
| 2077s | more harm than good yeah |
| 2079s | um so that doesn't necessarily just |
| 2080s | because we say oh maybe we wouldn't have |
| 2082s | done that in an ideal world doesn't mean |
| 2083s | we necessarily |
| 2084s | think it's a good idea to change it now |
| 2087s | i think a good follow-up to that you're |
| 2089s | you know alluding to |
| 2091s | an amount of time that is acceptable to |
| 2093s | you know make a change to something or |
| 2094s | nerf to something um there have been |
| 2096s | some recent examples where things get |
| 2098s | nerfed well after release and it's you |
| 2100s | know not nearly as well received the |
| 2102s | first question is like why wasn't that |
| 2104s | done right away because i've now |
| 2106s | invested in this item or this whatever i |
| 2107s | think a good example of that was |
| 2108s | probably greater ricochet um if there |
| 2111s | was any kind of involvement in that |
| 2112s | where it was nerfed many many months |
| 2114s | after release and |
| 2115s | i think the nerf |
| 2117s | objectively was very well done i think |
| 2119s | it was a perfect nerf that actually was |
| 2121s | a buff to a number of players as well |
| 2122s | and i thought the balancing on it was |
| 2124s | fantastic and made it a better more |
| 2126s | unique ability but it was still not well |
| 2128s | received and to you guys is that just an |
| 2130s | example of like this was just done a |
| 2132s | little bit later than it should have |
| 2135s | i think there are a lot of factors in |
| 2137s | play when it comes to when something |
| 2139s | should be nerfed |
| 2140s | we do a lot of um we in the past i'm |
| 2143s | guilty of it we've done a lot of |
| 2144s | knee-jerk reaction nerfs to pieces of |
| 2146s | content and knee-jerk knee-jerk reaction |
| 2148s | buffs to content as well which we've |
| 2150s | come later to regret and it's to the |
| 2152s | point where |
| 2153s | well we we we've already changed it we |
| 2155s | can't change it again or it's been too |
| 2158s | long for us to change it so we won't |
| 2159s | change it at all and then there are |
| 2161s | other factors of like for the |
| 2163s | ricocheting with the fixture changes |
| 2166s | it was more finding the right solution |
| 2169s | and that's a different factor we're |
| 2170s | finding the right solution so we know we |
| 2172s | needed to change it but we had a lot of |
| 2174s | internal discussion with the comic |
| 2176s | council but with the developers that |
| 2178s | made it with players who just play the |
| 2179s | game and aren't involved in those things |
| 2181s | they're like |
| 2182s | how like what does this change sound |
| 2183s | like what does this change like i'm |
| 2184s | making sure we get the numbers right and |
| 2186s | the the feeling of the the change right |
| 2189s | was for the greater ricochet example |
| 2190s | that's the reason why it took so long |
| 2192s | for that to get changed should it have |
| 2193s | been changed sooner sure i mean i think |
| 2195s | an idea well in a perfect world yeah and |
| 2196s | you know what it wouldn't have gone out |
| 2197s | like that uh it would have gone out as |
| 2199s | the way it is right now but we're not in |
| 2201s | a perfect world and it wouldn't have |
| 2202s | taken as long um but |
| 2205s | with those things it does take long and |
| 2206s | then there are other pieces of content |
| 2208s | that's just been in the game for so long |
| 2209s | it's like um |
| 2210s | i can't think of any specific examples |
| 2211s | but dry girls is the obvious one that |
| 2213s | comes to mind for me oh god yeah i spent |
| 2214s | some time trying to figure out what to |
| 2216s | do with the |
| 2218s | too high availability of dry goals oh |
| 2220s | yeah i couldn't get i couldn't yeah i |
| 2221s | couldn't get any consensus on an |
| 2223s | agreement and by the time there was any |
| 2225s | will to do anything about it there were |
| 2226s | just so many of them in the economy |
| 2227s | exactly that even if we'd nerfed the |
| 2228s | drop table it wouldn't matter so there |
| 2229s | was a push like two nerf the drop table |
| 2231s | at the time because they were coming in |
| 2232s | too quickly |
| 2234s | we realized fairly quickly that there |
| 2236s | was a problem but there wasn't a |
| 2238s | consensus on whether or not it was |
| 2240s | should be i mean you kind of alluded to |
| 2241s | it right like it might be like let's say |
| 2243s | there's like a two week window right |
| 2244s | like it's just like arbitrary there's |
| 2247s | kind of a two week window where it's |
| 2248s | like well this only just launched you |
| 2250s | might expect some fluctuation maybe |
| 2252s | there might be a buff or a nerf within |
| 2253s | that window after two weeks it's |
| 2254s | starting to feel permanent and then at |
| 2256s | that point we're kind of like if we |
| 2258s | change it now |
| 2260s | this starts to disrupt like it's |
| 2261s | disruptive it's starting to people have |
| 2263s | become accustomed to it working in this |
| 2264s | way it's become an established part of |
| 2265s | the game if we buff or nerf it now |
| 2267s | that's actually a change rather than a |
| 2269s | fix and then so then that time we say oh |
| 2271s | okay maybe we don't need to do that then |
| 2272s | because at that point there's a cost to |
| 2274s | the players right we don't want to |
| 2276s | change things at that point so then you |
| 2277s | know another week goes past another |
| 2279s | month goes past another month because no |
| 2280s | actually this is really a problem like |
| 2282s | we thought maybe we could not change it |
| 2284s | but we do really need to change it so |
| 2286s | but now the change would better be |
| 2288s | really good because we can't change it |
| 2289s | and then change it again |
| 2291s | worst thing than changing grika way too |
| 2292s | late would have been having to change it |
| 2294s | five months out and then again ten |
| 2296s | months yeah exactly yeah and there's an |
| 2298s | example of |
| 2299s | when i talk about our failures but |
| 2301s | there's example of this with dark light |
| 2302s | yeah um dark light |
| 2304s | had been changed four times five times |
| 2307s | since release i think now and i know |
| 2309s | that uh mod rowley hates me |
| 2313s | for the update but we spent many many |
| 2315s | many months working on dark light i |
| 2317s | think dark light isn't an okay place now |
| 2319s | um it certainly wasn't for a long time |
| 2322s | it was either too good it was too bad it |
| 2323s | was too good it was too bad um where it |
| 2325s | is now is in a decent place um |
| 2328s | but yeah that's not ideal you don't if |
| 2330s | we apply if we applied that process to a |
| 2332s | drop |
| 2333s | into a rare drought if we applied that |
| 2335s | process to something that was directly |
| 2336s | valuable to the economy that would be |
| 2338s | that would be horrible you'd be like oh |
| 2340s | drago is worth nothing now dragon what |
| 2342s | that's that's where the pan excel one's |
| 2343s | meme comes from right yeah yeah every |
| 2345s | time we talk about anything with |
| 2347s | balancing that's the other i mean it |
| 2348s | plays out you know the players want us |
| 2349s | to be more open about stuff and we we |
| 2352s | basically would prefer to just talk |
| 2353s | openly about everything but if we talk |
| 2355s | about like i'm sure some of the stuff |
| 2356s | we've said now is going to have some |
| 2358s | people like buying or selling something |
| 2360s | because everything we say yes yeah yeah |
| 2362s | of course |
| 2363s | the interesting thing about dry goals |
| 2364s | right was the death of coinshare |
| 2368s | the uh |
| 2369s | i don't know if you remember the release |
| 2370s | of kk |
| 2371s | uh i was not an eoc user at that point i |
| 2374s | um yeah i was not but like um |
| 2376s | dry goals was supposed to be a very |
| 2378s | valuable drop it was supposed to be very |
| 2379s | rare players weren't supposed to kill kk |
| 2381s | as often as they know they're doing and |
| 2383s | this this i this is forever indelible in |
| 2385s | my brain because it's seared in because |
| 2387s | i made such a huge mistake i was a very |
| 2389s | fairly early |
| 2390s | fairly junior balance at the time um but |
| 2393s | dry goals were worth 500 million gp |
| 2395s | and of course the way coin show works oh |
| 2397s | with the ge system yeah so of course |
| 2399s | where coin share drops um it drops the |
| 2401s | the market value of the of the or coin |
| 2403s | shares the market value of the item |
| 2405s | and of course we all know the g doesn't |
| 2407s | update very often yes so as as more and |
| 2410s | more draggles would come into the game |
| 2411s | the way the coin share system worked was |
| 2413s | that um it used to put in maybe this is |
| 2416s | maybe people don't even know how this |
| 2417s | works the coin share system used to |
| 2418s | inject the item onto the grand exchange |
| 2420s | with no no player seller um so the money |
| 2422s | goes out to the to the players that item |
| 2424s | is on the ground exchange that is listed |
| 2426s | for market price yes and of course if an |
| 2429s | item is over supplied and dropping in |
| 2431s | value |
| 2432s | no one never actually sell but the money |
| 2434s | is already the money the money is in the |
| 2436s | economy the item is selling for mid |
| 2437s | price which no one's buying for because |
| 2439s | they're paying like 10 of the market |
| 2440s | value |
| 2441s | so it falls to |
| 2443s | to me at the balance of the time to |
| 2445s | having to forcefully update the grand |
| 2446s | exchange prices to try and be as |
| 2448s | accurate as they can but i don't like |
| 2450s | doing that because it causes panic with |
| 2452s | merchants and nips and things like that |
| 2453s | so |
| 2454s | for for a very long time there was a dry |
| 2457s | goal wall i used to call it internally |
| 2460s | of just hundreds of dry goals never |
| 2461s | being sold the money already in the |
| 2463s | economy and it was like this is |
| 2464s | unsustainable this this we cannot |
| 2468s | because the money isn't being injected |
| 2469s | the money's not trading hands the money |
| 2470s | is not going from player to being |
| 2472s | generated it's just being generated by |
| 2473s | the game um and i think the current coin |
| 2476s | ship the current shardshare system |
| 2478s | isn't perfect because shards don't trade |
| 2480s | as often as the as they should |
| 2482s | um but it's definitely a hell of a lot |
| 2484s | better than what we had in this in the |
| 2485s | old system do you think there are still |
| 2487s | drag wars on the ge at 500 mil or do |
| 2489s | they |
| 2490s | just |
| 2492s | manually i either purged them all okay |
| 2494s | so that money just got generated and no |
| 2496s | dragon was actually going to the game |
| 2497s | good for the economy or they did get or |
| 2499s | they did eventually get sold when uh the |
| 2501s | price was was was adjusted the right |
| 2503s | correct price |
| 2504s | okay wow that's uh |
| 2506s | not something not something i was aware |
| 2508s | of but i'm sure that's what people are |
| 2509s | working my biggest my biggest failure um |
| 2512s | i mean yeah i mean it makes perfect |
| 2514s | sense how it could happen it's just tied |
| 2515s | to g values and i know you've even as |
| 2518s | recently as this month been updating ge |
| 2519s | values is that correct yeah try to |
| 2521s | because a lot of the other goddess ones |
| 2523s | and without getting too far into the |
| 2526s | grand exchange system and what's going |
| 2527s | on there uh is it a situation where the |
| 2531s | grand exchange system itself potentially |
| 2532s | needs an overhaul to better adapt to |
| 2535s | changing prices yeah so |
| 2538s | the grand exchange updates itself every |
| 2540s | eight to 24 hours |
| 2542s | um it's a completely random number um |
| 2544s | various flex people know when their |
| 2546s | exchange changes um but between eight |
| 2548s | and 24 hours it exchanges but it |
| 2549s | requires a certain number of trades for |
| 2552s | the item's price to be changed so one of |
| 2554s | the reasons why you see very low volume |
| 2555s | items um like rest and things like that |
| 2558s | on tradable uh tradable res don't really |
| 2560s | move in price if they're not already max |
| 2561s | cash yes um because there's not enough |
| 2564s | of them being traded and if they're not |
| 2565s | traded the system doesn't update |
| 2567s | so when it goes to update it goes have i |
| 2569s | sold x number of items no okay well |
| 2572s | we're still the same |
| 2575s | even if it is being even if it is being |
| 2576s | traded in reasonable values for his |
| 2578s | items so untreatable |
| 2580s | tradable rares only trade like what one |
| 2582s | said once a week or a couple of times a |
| 2584s | week that's not enough for a regular |
| 2586s | item to update um so i think i think |
| 2588s | this it doesn't need updating anything |
| 2590s | like that it's not controversial take um |
| 2593s | it's getting updated which is the |
| 2594s | problem it would be nice if it was a |
| 2595s | system that updated um based on category |
| 2597s | so it if it was a tradable rare update |
| 2600s | with every sale potentially um if it was |
| 2603s | more like a high level item like the uh |
| 2605s | staff armadillo then maybe that would |
| 2607s | trade like every like x number of times |
| 2609s | maybe if it was uh |
| 2611s | uh like |
| 2613s | a potential percentage of trades you |
| 2615s | know like yeah it would be nice |
| 2617s | if there's a if it's a little more fluid |
| 2618s | than you know what seems to be designed |
| 2620s | for like runes and food that is you know |
| 2622s | traded all the time yeah that definitely |
| 2624s | works out for those items it's it's |
| 2625s | tricky because yeah it's because to |
| 2627s | handle those low volume items just |
| 2629s | the back end the back end systems and |
| 2630s | the front end interfaces would just need |
| 2632s | to work completely differently to the |
| 2633s | way that they do what you want is to see |
| 2635s | all of the trades right yeah of course |
| 2637s | what is this actually trading what was |
| 2638s | the last one or the last 10 bottoms |
| 2641s | yeah um but that would require the whole |
| 2643s | g system to be redone which which i |
| 2645s | would love to see happen but it's a huge |
| 2647s | project yeah |
| 2649s | okay well i think one one other i mean |
| 2652s | not to get too far into the into the |
| 2653s | grand exchange stuff um |
| 2655s | some of the items that were recently |
| 2656s | updated in terms of prices were the |
| 2658s | fractions of arnold pieces i believe |
| 2659s | because they were set at like 300k um |
| 2663s | kind of a two-parter first part how much |
| 2665s | thought is put into the default base |
| 2667s | prices of some of these items because |
| 2669s | sometimes on on launch like a lane sword |
| 2671s | for example i believe came in at half a |
| 2673s | billion coins which yeah seemed fairly |
| 2675s | you know could end up there but then |
| 2677s | you've got the the fasoa pieces which |
| 2678s | this is the strongest weapon in the game |
| 2680s | and a third of it is worth 200k |
| 2682s | um is it just like an arbitrary number |
| 2684s | because the ge should adjust it at some |
| 2686s | point or |
| 2687s | is it like an actually considered thing |
| 2689s | um |
| 2691s | most of the time it's a considered thing |
| 2693s | um sometimes a value is placed on it |
| 2695s | because the value is placed on it when |
| 2697s | we're testing and that value doesn't get |
| 2699s | changed okay um i think that's likely |
| 2701s | what happened with the fraction stuff |
| 2702s | armadale pieces um there was a default |
| 2704s | value placed on it which is 300k and |
| 2706s | that wasn't updated as a result |
| 2709s | it wasn't a date before launch um but |
| 2711s | like you said with the length sword we |
| 2713s | do |
| 2713s | can sit we try to consider what this |
| 2716s | item would be worth on release not |
| 2718s | necessarily where it's going to end up |
| 2720s | because um obviously we don't know where |
| 2722s | but like normally uh i am brand new |
| 2724s | items are uh |
| 2726s | inflated on release um so try and make |
| 2728s | sure we get the right item |
| 2731s | uh so we so the way we we in those |
| 2734s | meetings we say like okay so what is it |
| 2736s | it's a 105 sword do we have any |
| 2738s | comparisons to that like the answer is |
| 2740s | no because and there are no there are no |
| 2742s | two no five zombies so what is our |
| 2744s | comparison what's t92 is t9 t-90s so |
| 2746s | like how much are they worth how much do |
| 2748s | we think these how much is the value |
| 2750s | from t92 to 95 worth um what is the |
| 2753s | rarity of these items like are they |
| 2755s | rarer or less rare than these current |
| 2756s | exams how difficult is the boss |
| 2758s | all these things should actually should |
| 2761s | play into the factor of the initial cost |
| 2764s | of the item um like the kk example i |
| 2766s | gave earlier um we priced the drivers to |
| 2768s | find a million because we thought well |
| 2770s | that's how much they should be worth the |
| 2772s | difficulty with the boss rarity of the |
| 2774s | drops which ended up being right um how |
| 2776s | useful they are over other items and |
| 2777s | that sort of thing so that's that's what |
| 2779s | should go into the pricing of an item um |
| 2781s | sometimes we get it wrong just doesn't |
| 2782s | sometimes yeah uh but again sometimes uh |
| 2785s | it's one of those things that just falls |
| 2786s | through the cracks when terms of |
| 2787s | development there's kind of a sentiment |
| 2788s | in the player base sometimes with items |
| 2790s | where they're tentative to purchase |
| 2792s | things because if it's really really |
| 2794s | strong and really good and they want it |
| 2796s | they're worried it's gonna get nerfed |
| 2798s | eight months after release and i |
| 2800s | personally would argue that's pretty |
| 2802s | valid i think that's happened a number |
| 2803s | of times you've got twitter |
| 2805s | you've got you know and i think a recent |
| 2807s | example you've got the fractured staff |
| 2808s | of armadale is extremely strong it is |
| 2810s | game-breakingly strong it has not been |
| 2812s | rebalanced yet but i think there are a |
| 2814s | number of players that definitely hold |
| 2815s | that kind of sentiment or or fear that |
| 2818s | they're going to put all this money into |
| 2819s | something or spend a lot of time work |
| 2820s | for something and then the parameters of |
| 2822s | it are going to be changed and i guess |
| 2824s | the the question there is |
| 2827s | how do you go about in the future um you |
| 2830s | know changing the sentiment in in the |
| 2832s | player base and how do you how do you go |
| 2834s | about getting the right nerfs and the |
| 2836s | right balances either within you know a |
| 2838s | short period of time or better yet how |
| 2840s | do you release items |
| 2842s | especially you know with relation to pvm |
| 2844s | that are you know going to |
| 2847s | stay the way that they're initially |
| 2848s | released and sort of build back the the |
| 2849s | trust of the player base it's a very |
| 2851s | difficult question to answer because i |
| 2852s | don't |
| 2853s | i don't want to come out and say we will |
| 2855s | never nerf i am and i am ever again my f |
| 2858s | has been released because that's not |
| 2859s | feasible though of course not so i think |
| 2861s | there will forever be this this concern |
| 2863s | and i think it's a valid concern to some |
| 2866s | degree um |
| 2868s | that is that it will be there i think |
| 2870s | what we can do is to try and make sure |
| 2872s | that we think about |
| 2873s | exactly what the impact of this of items |
| 2876s | any items pvm or whatever items in the |
| 2878s | future has on the economy on the meta on |
| 2881s | players behaviors and those sorts of |
| 2882s | things to try and make sure that we |
| 2884s | don't have to nerf it in the future um |
| 2886s | i think one of the concerns that a lot a |
| 2888s | lot of people players have and maybe we |
| 2890s | have internally is that we release |
| 2892s | things we if this concern is hanging |
| 2894s | over players heads we just release |
| 2896s | things that are too weak |
| 2898s | and because if things are too weak then |
| 2900s | only the price is going to go up and |
| 2901s | that's not necessarily a bad thing for |
| 2902s | players but i think releasing weak items |
| 2905s | is just yeah that's less exciting as |
| 2906s | well yeah it's less exciting but also |
| 2908s | less damaging to your bank account right |
| 2910s | yes i mean it's worth saying it still |
| 2911s | creates a massive economic uncertainty |
| 2913s | because if we release something's weak |
| 2914s | people can spend people are going to |
| 2915s | spam by them and then exactly i mean |
| 2917s | it's going to be |
| 2918s | the grimoire was what the ritual shard |
| 2920s | was and then people just spam bought |
| 2922s | them because there's no way they keep it |
| 2924s | like this and then now it's a high value |
| 2925s | item yeah |
| 2927s | but like that i'd argue that it's almost |
| 2929s | worse |
| 2930s | um because then there's never going to |
| 2932s | be a cool new drop because it's always |
| 2934s | going to be weaker it's so it's going to |
| 2935s | be very marginally better than something |
| 2937s | you did released before and it's like |
| 2939s | why do i even bother going for it and |
| 2940s | that point the content is kind of in |
| 2942s | danger of being useful |
| 2944s | and danger of being played because it's |
| 2945s | like well if if you literally need |
| 2947s | someone on reddit to give you a |
| 2949s | spreadsheet of this is going to give you |
| 2950s | 0.1 dps increase well how much is a 0.1 |
| 2953s | dps increase worth most people nothing |
| 2955s | probably yeah probably worth not a lot |
| 2956s | and it's phrased very specific |
| 2959s | top-end players who are gonna be like |
| 2960s | well i want this one percent point one |
| 2962s | percent dps increase for like phase four |
| 2965s | of soul like it's a very specific new |
| 2966s | situation so like we need to release |
| 2968s | items that are better than the previous |
| 2970s | items or have a niche i just say and |
| 2973s | then the previous items but i don't |
| 2974s | think that concern is ever going to go |
| 2976s | away i think |
| 2978s | i think |
| 2979s | we've tried to |
| 2981s | really have a lot of impact in thought |
| 2983s | items and |
| 2984s | uh |
| 2985s | not nerf them down the line um |
| 2989s | it's never going to be perfect i think |
| 2990s | that's that's |
| 2991s | that's just the truth of it and that |
| 2993s | fear is always going to be there but um |
| 2996s | it's something that we are actively |
| 2998s | trying to fix and make sure that |
| 3000s | in the future hopefully there is a |
| 3002s | future in like what one two three years |
| 3004s | ago |
| 3005s | where it's like players can go out |
| 3007s | confident and get this new drop and use |
| 3009s | it and be like okay this is balanced |
| 3011s | it's strong it's balanced perfect it's |
| 3012s | exactly where it should be |
| 3014s | and i don't have to worry about his |
| 3015s | price ever devaluing yeah so i guess |
| 3016s | plenty is just knocking out of the park |
| 3018s | on the first go and i guess plan b i |
| 3020s | think the best option for an item let's |
| 3021s | say gricko that was you know performing |
| 3024s | in a way that wasn't |
| 3025s | maybe good for the game |
| 3026s | um when you are performing that nerf |
| 3028s | like you said it's take the time that is |
| 3030s | needed to actually |
| 3031s | implement that nerf in a good way that |
| 3033s | isn't that significant and i think even |
| 3035s | though people were very upset about the |
| 3036s | greco-nerf when you looked at the actual |
| 3038s | numbers of it it was done in such a way |
| 3040s | that it is still it still has the same |
| 3043s | you know level of power compared to |
| 3044s | other ranged abilities it is still the |
| 3046s | strongest you know basic ability for |
| 3048s | that combat style in the game it's not |
| 3050s | like it was nerfed dramatically to the |
| 3051s | ground i think that's something that can |
| 3053s | help too is just having that faith that |
| 3055s | yeah if this does get nerfed it's gonna |
| 3056s | get nerfed in a way that it is still |
| 3058s | good and it is still fun and it is still |
| 3059s | useful just possibly in a way that |
| 3060s | breaks the game a little bit less yeah |
| 3062s | exactly |
| 3063s | cool |
| 3064s | okay well i think that's all the time we |
| 3065s | have thank you all so much everyone for |
| 3066s | tuning in um once again mods tempo mod |
| 3069s | jack thank you so much for joining me |
| 3070s | and we'll see you in the next one |