[2022] Let's chat about the economy, death costs and inflation in RuneScape

Transcript (by Youtube)

4s	hello and welcome back we are live from
6s	jagex hq and i'm joined by mods sponge
9s	and jack and today we're gonna be
10s	talking about the economy and death
12s	costs
13s	hey i'm mod sponge aka brad um
17s	on the combat council content developer
19s	been with jagex for about
21s	four or so years it kind of blows into
23s	one um originally qa now content dev
25s	involved a lot of combat and rewards
27s	um you've made an impression as the
29s	rewards going on the rewards guy yeah
30s	that's not my thing yeah sadly but hey
33s	it's good to have a thing i think i
34s	think i guess um i'm mod jack as of
37s	recently i'm the lead designer
39s	um are we doing real names and life
40s	histories is that how we're doing it
41s	whatever you want how long have i been
42s	the jags now 12 years i think
44s	um and my name's tim
46s	which makes my mod name really confusing
48s	i think i think the first the first main
50s	thing we're going to talk about and it's
51s	kind of a two-parter is death costs and
54s	they tie in to the economy in a lot of
55s	ways but i think especially in the last
58s	couple of years there's been
59s	you know increased discussion around
62s	death costs sort of both as a barrier to
64s	entry for pvming and i think is a pain
66s	point for for players across the board
68s	and now that is something that has been
70s	looked at for for a long time and to my
72s	understanding there are going to be
74s	changes made to death costs in the in
76s	the near future so i think first
77s	question is just um personal opinion uh
80s	how do we feel about death costs what do
81s	you personally think about them they're
83s	deaf costs are a weird one um obviously
86s	you can understand
88s	the necessity for them with them tying
90s	into the economy so much
92s	pvm generating such large amounts of
94s	money
96s	so
97s	it's clear we need some
99s	access to money sinks um so obviously it
102s	provides that very well and originally
104s	like they didn't exist right it was you
106s	die your stuff was on the ground or in a
108s	gravestone and if it timed out you lose
109s	it
110s	um so as far as i'm aware it was
113s	introduced as a way to remove the pain
116s	of i've got to get my stuff again or if
118s	there was issues um we see like iraq's
121s	or has the um
123s	the graveyard area yeah and that was
125s	cool that was created due to issues
127s	where too many people were dying so
129s	there was too many gravestones to the
130s	point where some would disappear yes um
133s	so it seems like
135s	to my opinion obviously not being with
137s	jagex when that happened um that
140s	def costs were introduced as a way to
142s	mitigate that
143s	so that you could just all right go take
145s	the easy way out buy my stuff back it
146s	was almost a cost for convenience of not
148s	having to run exactly exactly meant to
150s	be like a finer balance point it was
152s	either run back grab your stuff or
155s	you know have uh have the the cost
157s	associated with getting everything
158s	teleported exactly um and it was created
161s	in a time where
163s	people weren't necessarily carrying
164s	around eight bills worth of items right
166s	yeah i think with the introduction of
167s	invention and degradables and
169s	switchscape and everything else i think
170s	just it's an old system that you know
173s	did not very it didn't phase super well
175s	into the evolved evolution of combat in
177s	in today's modern game yeah i feel like
179s	it definitely
180s	hasn't kept up with the rest of the game
182s	um and that's the big pain point with it
185s	i'm not sure how well jack feels
188s	yeah no i i think i agree with all of
190s	that it's interesting to think about it
191s	from a
193s	like from a high-level point of view as
194s	you're talking about like we
196s	we had effectively it was kind of random
197s	whether you lost items it's quite
199s	important the items do leave the economy
200s	sometimes because otherwise they
202s	essentially flood in our invention
204s	correct that as you mentioned but um
206s	we replaced a sort of effectively like
209s	if there was a bug or a server problem
211s	or your connection dropped you know or
214s	like your mum called you away or
215s	something then you might lose your items
217s	so at random people just sort of
218s	randomly got items removed from the game
220s	and we replaced that with what is
222s	effectively a flat punishment
224s	and took that opportunity to add in a
226s	gold sink to address some of the gold
228s	inflation issues at the time but it's
229s	quite interesting thinking about gold i
231s	think i think where death costs have
232s	evolved and become a bit of a
233s	frustration for people is that although
235s	they are a gold sink
236s	they're a slightly arbitrary gold sink
238s	in a way because they're kind of tied to
240s	performance
241s	you only suffer death costs if you die
243s	it's not a cost to play the game it's a
245s	cost to fail they become attacks on on
247s	learning or yeah exactly across the
250s	board at all or again like bug server
252s	issues your connection your mum calls
254s	you away all the same issues now cause
255s	you to lose gold and it's now as you
257s	mentioned because the because the system
259s	feels incorrectly balanced for the
261s	massive massive value of gear now
264s	you lose a staggering amount of gold in
265s	one of those things absolutely and it
267s	and it's yeah it's it's just it's
268s	annoying and frustrating for that to
270s	happen it's like a double punishment
271s	right dying is bad already you don't
273s	need to be punished for dying you're
274s	already dying you're not getting
275s	compensation efforts you're not getting
277s	a boss kill you're not getting the loot
278s	you may have lost your consumer wherever
280s	it makes more sense for money to leave
281s	the game through the players that are
283s	farming bosses for a thousand hours
284s	straight without dying right that's why
286s	you want the money to leave you don't
287s	want
288s	something some guy being introduced
290s	dying and going i don't want to do this
291s	anymore yeah they've brought nothing
292s	into the game they've just just had
293s	money leave it's a strong barrier to
295s	entry for i don't even think necessarily
297s	for like new people trying to you know
299s	get into the game but i think it's it's
301s	a huge uh that's one of the reasons why
303s	a lot of teams won't take inexperienced
305s	people and i think beyond that even a
307s	step further it's a big reason why a lot
309s	of inexperienced people don't feel
311s	comfortable going with an experienced
312s	team because it's the because they
314s	constantly what if i mess up and i cost
316s	everyone across the team 100 million
318s	coins and that's stressful and uh no i
322s	totally agree with what brad said with
323s	it's just it's kind of taxing the wrong
325s	people and i think the people that you
326s	know maybe could be taxed or the people
328s	that are moving a lot of
330s	gp a lot of actual currency it's not the
332s	people trying to get to that point it's
334s	the people that already have it because
336s	on them it's not going to make or break
337s	their gameplay experience
339s	in the same way with relation to that i
341s	think just a full blanket question so
343s	could you take me through what uh what's
346s	kind of been been arranged for for
348s	deathcost with this update
349s	so the the high level version of the
351s	changes we're making is essentially just
352s	reducing death costs um okay there's
355s	there's some specific math this is
356s	probably the right place to go through
357s	the specific mass but but you know the
359s	costs have got wildly out of control so
361s	we've looked at various models of how we
363s	can reduce the cost and make it fair at
364s	different levels of play make sure that
366s	it's not unfairly punishing any
368s	particular group and just massively
370s	lower death costs across the board um i
372s	think that's like that's just the good
374s	message what we haven't done is
375s	completely removed f costs you know i
377s	mean obviously that's an option on the
378s	table it's just death is free as we've
380s	talked about a little bit like
382s	the the risk and the punishment are in
384s	the wrong place yes but but if we
386s	completely remove death costs then we
388s	remove any incentive to think about what
390s	you're doing and think about what gear
391s	you're using so what we're doing is
392s	massively lowering them but not removing
394s	them completely if you could give me
396s	like a ballpark for like an endgame
399s	setup def cost if it's a cap system or
400s	anything like that i think i think in
402s	some situations you could see anywhere
403s	near as like 10 of what you're currently
405s	paying it very much depends on the setup
407s	you currently have how did you determine
409s	the setup is it tracked based on grand
411s	exchange value or is it tier or is it
414s	kind of a mix of the two is it a dynamic
416s	system
418s	um it's it's based on g cost still
420s	because that way the death costs scale
422s	with inflation in the economy um but
424s	it's it's um flat based on the total
426s	value of the gear um at the moment i
429s	believe it scales up
431s	we removed that because when we looked
432s	at the numbers for low-level players
434s	with the system that we've got they were
437s	fine they're not too bad we don't we
438s	don't one one of the proposals we
440s	discussed in some detail was like do we
441s	do we make it
443s	um
444s	like do we make it free for low level
446s	players or you know
447s	do we have a lower threshold and upper
449s	threshold um and then when we when we
451s	when we assign the system that we've got
453s	we ended up like it just looks fine at
454s	both ends i think a big reason for that
456s	too is the system itself it allows a
458s	series of items to be protected for free
460s	newer players don't have as many items
462s	with them whether it's a switchscape
464s	thing or you know they're not getting
465s	into invention perks and as a result of
467s	that if you're dying with six items and
469s	three of them or four of them are
470s	protected for free your death cost is
473s	very very manageable what we wanted to
474s	make sure was just that the system was
476s	there for
477s	like you you want to make sure you
478s	understand the system right it doesn't
480s	really mean anything at low levels of
481s	combat such a trivial amount of gold
482s	that it doesn't matter but it gets you
484s	accustomed to the idea that the system
485s	exists and helps you to understand the
487s	system absolutely well i think overall
488s	initial reaction to that i think yeah a
491s	dramatic reduction of death costs is
494s	fantastic i think it's it's a good
496s	a good you know time for this to happen
498s	in the game i think it's been a pain
499s	point for especially the last three
501s	years that's where you know you've
502s	started to see the rise of like a
505s	significant death cost a few years ago
506s	might have been three mil
507s	and then in the last years it's now ten
510s	fifteen twenty twenty five million set
512s	up and at a certain point it just felt
514s	like this feels uncapped and it doesn't
516s	feel yeah right now i think part of it
518s	too is it doesn't feel you know
519s	satisfying to die once and lose a whole
521s	hour of profit essentially when when we
524s	when we look through the existing system
525s	what we found was that when the
526s	developers had designed the scaling
529s	system that they designed it just it
530s	wasn't really
532s	written to take into account the large
534s	values now and no one had ever adjusted
536s	them so
537s	it's got out of control in a way that
538s	was never intended by the original the
540s	people who wrote the original algorithm
542s	for it fantastic um no i'm definitely
544s	glad to hear that i know i've been like
545s	a main vocal you know point in the
548s	community with relation to
549s	uh death costs and sort of the impact
551s	they have on learning when you're
552s	looking at
554s	um the economy and and death costs and
557s	and even the cost of pvm if you want to
559s	go there as well
560s	i think
561s	that is something where when you're
562s	assigned to make drop tables because you
564s	are the person in charge of doing a lot
565s	of the drop tables recent updates you
567s	have to set a baseline amount of gold to
569s	offset costs yeah a lot goes into drop
572s	tables um
575s	because you want people to do the
576s	content right and what way is it to get
579s	people to do content one obviously it's
581s	new and exciting but then once they got
582s	past that they need a reason to stay on
584s	the drop tables need to be enticing
586s	enough where you want to do it over the
589s	last thing but then the same time we
590s	don't want to essentially power creep
592s	drop tables um
594s	which has happened you can see that
596s	happening um
598s	so you see things like arch glacial
601s	just shooting huge huge numbers of items
604s	into the game
605s	which
607s	arguably could be seen as a problem but
609s	at the same time
610s	as long as we have sinks for these items
612s	and they're actually usable it's not
614s	necessarily the end of the world quite
616s	quite recently a couple of times i've
618s	kind of shouted out you know what do you
619s	want from drop tables what what's the
621s	pain points right now
622s	um
623s	so you see things like uh cockatrice
625s	eggs which were
628s	some really niche item that players were
630s	shooting through loads of yeah and we're
632s	just kind of becoming
634s	unreasonably expensive to the point
636s	where you didn't want to use the item
638s	they created it's it's very much taking
640s	players opinions seeing what they want
642s	seeing what the economy wants looking at
643s	prices looking at price histories um
647s	you can't just throw things on because
648s	then it just just leads to trouble um
651s	obviously
652s	in the past i've
655s	shown some resistance to like savages
657s	and alcohols
660s	but again
661s	they are
662s	they are an easy and
665s	nice way to give players a consistent
666s	money that isn't going to fluctuate you
668s	look at things like raksha right and
670s	what once was a drop worth a 300k spirit
674s	of weed sees i don't know what they do
675s	there's even upwards of that on release
676s	yeah exactly but then something like
678s	arch glacial comes along it's like cool
679s	drops a billion of them and drops
681s	infinite numbers of spirit weed seeds
683s	and suddenly poor action back there
685s	crying there is
688s	some aspect of
690s	is it fun as well if every drop i'm
692s	getting is the exact same right um
696s	i know when when i do your actual saying
698s	i get a big salvage job i'm like oh i
699s	got that
700s	but if we just gave out the exact same
702s	drop the entire time right i think that
704s	quickly yeah if you lose one tenth of
706s	each item each time exactly i think
709s	there's a there's a lot there
711s	but i mean you you spoke on earlier
713s	about kind of
714s	reducing the discrepancy between this
716s	drop is worth zero this drop is worth
718s	three yeah and i think you've done that
720s	in in recent tables you worked on and
722s	the way that you've done that is by
723s	giving multiple drops
725s	kerapak in a in a solo you get three
727s	piles
728s	yeah so diversified portfolio a better
730s	idea potentially you could or not a
732s	better idea but a better example would
733s	be crosis you can roll i believe 12
736s	times on the loot table yes and i think
738s	that's is that sort of a system you
740s	implemented as a good way to
743s	kind of reduce that that discrepancy
746s	yes
747s	crota specifically was
750s	i believe um
752s	i designed the table but i believe it
753s	was mod shogun that
755s	actually fiddled with the numbers and
756s	whatever um i just said we should have x
758s	y and z on there um
761s	and i still have some problems with it
763s	but
764s	that's fine i think it was more
766s	because crosses is
770s	less
771s	intense i'd say um and you know you can
773s	go you can do your bit and afk
775s	they needed more of a
777s	um
779s	more of a way of rewarding players that
781s	put in a lot of effort obviously now
783s	that's that's come to players
785s	strategizing around the point system
788s	um but that was why it was like you get
790s	up to 12 year olds was just i've put in
792s	loads of effort so i should be awarded
793s	more than the guy in the corner to say
795s	afk for five minutes um
799s	that being said
801s	um
803s	yes it does help awarding multiple drops
806s	because your chance of getting just a
807s	single low thing is reduced
810s	it's still there but it is yeah it
812s	balances out a bit more um so it is
815s	something that we've done
817s	um
818s	for other things as well um that you'll
820s	you'll hopefully see soon i think the
822s	risk is is what you pointed at the start
824s	which is it homogenizes the drop center
826s	it does yeah so it it it lowers so and
829s	this this is tricky because we're
830s	talking about player types here right
831s	there are some players who would
833s	definitely rather the boss just drop to
835s	fix them out of raw gold every kill
837s	like they would love that because then
838s	they could exactly predict what they're
840s	going to get for every moment of time
841s	they spend and and and calculate their
844s	exact gains and losses and it's
845s	frustrating to them when they earn less
846s	than they expected to for that moment um
849s	there are other players for whom the fun
850s	of it
852s	is kind of inherent to the activity
853s	right pvm
854s	isn't like spend money make gold it's
858s	invest get drop table get round and
860s	reward that's the nature of what pvm is
862s	in this game um we could completely
865s	change that
866s	i'm not sure that this i i think the
868s	number of players that treat it
870s	effectively as
871s	a guaranteed gold generator
875s	and are frustrated when it isn't a
876s	guaranteed gold generator i don't think
879s	necessarily justifies completely
880s	changing the nature of pvm in this game
882s	yeah you can you can see in some drops
885s	where we've kind of tried to go the best
887s	of both worlds you look like the
889s	fractured stuff of armadillo right we
890s	could have just dropped that as one one
892s	big drop yeah and have it as a one in i
895s	don't know five five thousand chance
897s	right yep but instead of doing that we
898s	split in three yeah so now you're more
900s	likely to get a bit yeah that the
903s	baseline level of my gp per hour is
905s	still gonna be the same because it's
907s	three times as common yep but
911s	it means that you don't have those long
912s	stretches without anything yeah um and
915s	you can go as far back to look at like
917s	original glacials glacials playful
920s	glacial glacial and it's got like the
922s	the orb of armadillo right and that's
923s	split into 100 bits yeah yeah so like at
926s	what point do you stop yeah
928s	like the word the worst case is like
930s	it's got a one in five thousand drop
931s	charts so we divide it into five
933s	thousand pieces and you're guaranteed a
935s	drop right and it just comes and then
937s	yeah and then it's like i have to grind
938s	this boss exactly 5 000 times to get
940s	this drop and that's bad as well like
942s	it's not like yeah it's a balancing
944s	point it's definitely a happy medium to
945s	be found and i think
947s	with if you look at the scope of the
948s	game right now across all drops and all
950s	bosses there are different options for
953s	different player types and i think the
954s	game offers a good variety of if you
956s	want something consistent versus if you
957s	want something that has a chance to get
959s	that absolutely massive drop
962s	at the same time when you're making new
964s	content you need to try and hit as many
966s	different player types as possible with
968s	regard to that and you want to make sure
970s	that um
971s	yeah i suppose that's probably the
972s	difficult part of trying to meet both is
973s	you don't want to make something for one
975s	specific player type if you're making
976s	like large content like a zami boss
979s	can't just afford anything for one
981s	specific type so with zami boss we've
984s	we've tried to
987s	alleviate some of the pain that players
988s	have um
990s	obviously introducing new high tier
992s	awards
993s	we don't want to just push them out push
995s	them out and push them out because
996s	obviously that affects the rest of the
998s	economy that affects every other boss
1000s	when you're introducing like new weapons
1002s	and new abilities or whatever
1004s	um that that's going to bring down
1007s	bring down the cost of things like
1008s	trying to compete with that um that
1010s	being said there are actions we've taken
1013s	um
1014s	so that we don't or we
1016s	attempt to not end up like uh arch
1019s	glacial i think that's a big pain point
1021s	for players is
1022s	looking at the core you can go however
1024s	many kills dry without getting done um
1027s	and with that in mind with with zami
1028s	we've actually introduced bad luck
1030s	mitigation
1032s	oh yeah okay um so going too many kills
1035s	dry is gonna start increasing your
1038s	chance to get a rare drop when you look
1040s	at
1040s	zamarak as a boss and the amount of
1043s	effort players have to put into it
1045s	um
1046s	the amount of time it can take to get a
1047s	kill
1049s	the input costs
1051s	um
1052s	we thought it was very important that
1053s	players didn't end up in the same
1055s	headspaces that they could end up with
1057s	as arch glacial wow
1060s	that's uh i i don't even know entirely
1062s	how i how i feel about that because i
1064s	was so certain prior to this that that
1067s	wasn't something that was going to be
1068s	considered but i think
1070s	to the points that you're making i think
1071s	it it makes certain a certain amount of
1073s	sense depending on the boss and the
1075s	piece of content because i don't think
1077s	bad luck mitigation needs to be
1079s	everywhere you don't need a dagging off
1080s	kings right where you're just
1081s	slaughtering thousands at a time no
1083s	absolutely um but things like arch glaze
1086s	or again where especially at higher
1088s	ranges where you're putting a lot of
1089s	effort um i think it's a good thing it's
1091s	an example it's an interesting example
1092s	of a mechanic where like there's a real
1094s	balance to be had between the individual
1096s	player experience
1097s	i am killing a boss i want a drop and
1100s	the effect it has on the economy like
1101s	how common is the drop what is the value
1103s	of it
1104s	i think we struggle a bit
1107s	my personal opinion there are definitely
1108s	people that disagree with me on the team
1109s	is that i i feel like our drops have
1111s	skewed a little bit rare
1113s	and and this is an example of that where
1115s	they're so rare that some people do
1116s	expect to just never see one
1118s	um
1119s	but the problem is if we made them more
1121s	common they'd be way less valuable i
1124s	would absolutely agree with that i think
1125s	since the the i think is ed2 was the
1128s	first one really for me was like wow if
1130s	you want to complete this content it is
1131s	going to be 100 hours or whatever it may
1134s	be and then from that point on there
1135s	definitely there was a trend of uniques
1137s	getting more and more rare and i think
1139s	that has changed a little bit with the
1141s	elder goddard's dungeon i think the
1142s	elder god voice dungeon has has pushed
1144s	things back a little bit where that was
1145s	a conscious expect to get a a drop more
1148s	frequently
1149s	um and but they're still i mean they're
1151s	still very rare right like they they
1153s	absolutely yeah but still very rare and
1155s	i mean they've had to be adjusted a few
1157s	times as well across the board because
1158s	they they come out and people aren't
1160s	satisfied with you know the the rates or
1162s	how many hours they have to repeat the
1164s	content to expect to see something yeah
1166s	yeah um it was something that we took on
1169s	board
1170s	big with zuck um obviously because we
1172s	had the three fronts before us to kind
1174s	of adjust um but that's part of the
1176s	reason why rate source is kind of so
1179s	free i'd i'd say i think it's like one
1181s	it's 27. it's a one in 17 or 118 to get
1184s	something to get something exactly um
1186s	from hard mode zach arguably that's in
1188s	my opinion that's still probably too
1189s	rare obviously there is a problem where
1192s	if
1193s	we brought zuck's rates down to one in
1195s	five for a drop what is the value of
1197s	them those i mean we can we can we can
1199s	see exactly what happens with that right
1200s	because that's basically what happened
1201s	with dragons
1202s	like what what common drops means you
1206s	can study through dragons and because
1207s	dragons were vastly more available than
1209s	we intended them to be because the kills
1210s	were easier and faster and the drop
1212s	rates were calibrated for much rarer
1214s	kill so effectively it was a very
1215s	generous drop right and it basically
1217s	meant like dry goals
1219s	were worth very little
1220s	it basically just handed everyone a free
1222s	melee what i mean i'm exaggerating
1223s	slightly but it essentially just handed
1225s	everyone a free melee weapon
1226s	they were incredibly accessible it
1228s	killed any melee weapons lower than that
1230s	because it's not like it's hard to get
1231s	up to the attack value needed to wield
1233s	it right and then
1234s	it basically
1237s	there were there were good aspects of
1238s	that because it made higher level pvm
1240s	accessible to a larger group of players
1242s	but it also meant that like there was no
1243s	profit in those drops because they were
1245s	so ubiquitously valuable sorry
1247s	ubiquitously available
1248s	it's it's a difficult trade-off very
1250s	hard to get right if you want if you
1252s	want that like incredibly rare
1253s	incredibly high value drop
1255s	which is worth max cash
1257s	it can't be that common it just can't
1260s	and i think
1261s	and i i totally agree with that i think
1263s	to what brad said about what if like
1265s	zuck weapons were every five kills to to
1267s	get a piece and i think at a to a point
1270s	to kind of surmise
1272s	as game designers
1274s	you're you basically you want your
1276s	player base to you know you want to fire
1278s	off the reward pathway and their
1279s	dopamine and you want to you know give
1281s	them that feel-good moment but if you
1283s	give them that feel-good moment every
1284s	single kill
1286s	it isn't the same it's not going to mean
1288s	anything you have to feel the player
1290s	needs to feel like they've worked
1290s	towards something it's just alleviating
1293s	that crazy grind that could have taken
1295s	way way too long and i think that is a
1298s	really strong point towards some form of
1299s	bad luck protection and saying no one
1301s	should ever have to do this boss two
1303s	thousand times without a single unique
1304s	of value and yeah i think that's that's
1307s	a really good
1309s	um you know rationale for for why in the
1312s	current state of the game that is
1313s	something that could be good yeah no no
1315s	i agree with that um you still give
1317s	those players the the feels good but
1319s	you're not going as far as to just give
1320s	them something every kill and kill off
1322s	that feeling
1323s	um so now it's been been fun to work
1325s	with
1326s	so we've talked about or spoken on the
1328s	the economic impact of death costs and
1332s	how they were a significant money sink i
1334s	think
1335s	most most players have a solid
1336s	understanding i think officially that's
1338s	been the stance is that they are an
1340s	important money sync but
1342s	to what was said by by brad earlier and
1344s	us alma jack that
1347s	it's a tax on the wrong people yeah
1350s	so
1351s	i think the the appropriate fallout
1353s	there is how do you tax the right people
1356s	if you do need a money sink
1358s	um yeah so we are slightly concerned
1360s	that by lowering death costs
1362s	it will have a an effect on inflation
1364s	inflation will go up because less money
1365s	is whether regardless of our judgment of
1368s	whether the correct amount money is
1369s	leaving the game from the correct people
1371s	a large amount of money is leaving the
1372s	game um we've done some analysis on on
1375s	where the sources of money are and death
1377s	death costs account for a large amount
1379s	of the money that leaves the game our
1380s	game doesn't have that many gold sinks
1382s	and death causticism is a is a huge one
1385s	um so if we massively lower death costs
1387s	we are massively lowering the gold sinks
1389s	in our game
1390s	more cash is coming into the game in
1392s	fact we're incentivizing people to do
1393s	pvm by reducing death costs so even more
1396s	cash is going to come into the game as a
1397s	result so it's a double hit on inflation
1399s	so we feel like we've got to couple that
1401s	with something
1402s	to
1404s	remove gold from the game and so the
1406s	solution that we've settled on is adding
1408s	a tariff to ge trades
1411s	so every every successful g trade
1414s	will
1416s	uh essentially like destroy one percent
1418s	of the gold one percent just across the
1420s	board
1422s	is that for making purchases or for
1424s	selling items or for both
1426s	uh let me think how it works so it's
1428s	applied to the gold that's given to the
1431s	seller like the seller receives one
1432s	percent less gold than they would
1435s	otherwise have received
1436s	in practice of course that may mean that
1438s	people just charge one percent more for
1439s	things in which case it's actually being
1440s	applied to the buyer but that's directly
1445s	yes i mean to me that makes perfect
1447s	sense i think that's a good way to do it
1449s	because instead of taxing people you
1451s	know learning the game or pdm
1453s	it doesn't even matter who you're taxing
1454s	or you know putting a penalty on it's
1457s	one specific subset of the community and
1459s	i think most players use the grand
1461s	exchange almost almost everybody uses
1463s	the grand exchange and the people who
1466s	are putting the most money through the
1467s	grand exchange are the people with the
1468s	most wealth i also think and this is you
1471s	know getting into what the grand
1472s	exchange does it is a great convenience
1475s	yeah and if a player does not want to
1476s	have to front that one percent tariff
1479s	they could opt to not use the grand
1481s	exchange hypothetically
1483s	i think
1484s	a one percent for i'm i'm gonna say off
1486s	the top i had almost every single player
1489s	in the game
1490s	they're going to be okay fronting that
1492s	in order to use the grand exchange and
1494s	the mass convenience to get out of it so
1496s	honestly it could be it could be a lot
1497s	higher and have very little impact on
1498s	people's day-to-day lives um but we
1501s	wanted to we we decided to go for one
1502s	percent because it's because it's so
1504s	sort of
1505s	invisible almost like people won't
1507s	notice it having a new even if you're
1508s	trading an extremely high value item one
1510s	percent of that work gets taken away you
1511s	still got 99 of that wealth it's a huge
1514s	amount of gold um and i think people
1516s	will just adjust to it pretty quickly
1518s	i think off the top of my head not
1519s	having access to to the numbers as this
1522s	is the first time hearing about this
1523s	um
1525s	i could almost i could even see that
1526s	pulling more wealth out of the game
1528s	significantly than what death costs were
1529s	doing prior that's our hope yeah it's it
1531s	will have to see in practice we
1533s	anticipate that it will
1535s	um we'll have to see in practice does it
1536s	have an impact i agree with your take
1538s	that
1539s	actually
1540s	that's a really good price to pay for
1542s	like not having to stand around trying
1543s	to manually trade it right across the
1545s	game it's on everybody yeah and that is
1547s	so different from the amount of players
1548s	that are paying death costs and not only
1550s	paying death costs but
1551s	for many players they feel locked to the
1553s	ring of death which is not in essence
1556s	really a true gold sink it's an onyx
1558s	sink it's an item that is coming out of
1560s	the game it's an item that's at elk
1561s	value roughly but that's still
1564s	and and
1565s	related to death costs themselves
1568s	i am i'd be interested to see in the
1569s	future maybe uh we can do another one of
1571s	these in a year's time and take a look
1572s	at the numbers but making players feel
1575s	less restricted on the ring of death you
1577s	could find even if death costs are 90
1579s	reduced you could find a similar amount
1581s	of gold leaving the game because they're
1583s	actually going to be real deaths instead
1585s	of players feeling forced to use the
1586s	ring of death that's just pulling onyxes
1588s	out yeah could be something we are doing
1590s	um with that in mind is actually
1592s	reworking the ring of death
1594s	oh okay um obviously because
1597s	it's not very useful it's not very
1598s	useful um well after these changes it
1601s	works exactly um and we don't want it to
1604s	feel like a crutch that players have to
1606s	use
1607s	um obviously
1609s	as a pure example say your def course is
1611s	now three mil
1612s	um
1613s	we don't want players then just going
1615s	okay i'm still gonna use it because i'm
1616s	saving i know two mil or however much um
1619s	so it will be seeing a rework
1621s	um to what extent currently um if
1624s	there's a news post maybe it'll be in
1626s	that um
1627s	but it won't have the same
1629s	death saving effect um and you won't
1631s	feel like you have to use it to reduce
1633s	your def costs
1635s	okay so it's going to be a ring that has
1637s	another purpose in exam it's going to be
1639s	repurposed so it's still useful it fits
1641s	into the level bracket that it should be
1642s	i want it to feel like oh this is just
1644s	trash don't bother using it but at the
1645s	same time we don't want it to feel like
1646s	the crutch that it currently is
1648s	our intention with the new death costs
1650s	is they're lower significantly lower but
1652s	you can't avoid them but you have to pay
1653s	them so we're not intending to add in
1655s	other items or or effects that avoid
1658s	that death cost first off i'm as someone
1661s	who you know started a significant
1663s	dialogue on on death costs and the the
1665s	detriment that you know players trying
1666s	to improve face across all levels and
1669s	all tiers i think
1671s	this all sounds very good to me i think
1673s	these are some of the things that i mean
1675s	i was personally pushing for and i'm
1677s	definitely i'm pleased hearing about
1678s	them discussed sort of in in this
1680s	capacity and i think off the top of my
1683s	head to my understanding these are
1684s	things that will alleviate that pressure
1687s	from that community that's been hit over
1689s	and over and over again for for many
1691s	years to come so i'm very excited about
1692s	that but i want to talk a little more
1694s	about the economy and the inflation
1696s	problem uh purely because
1698s	it's a big source of player i would say
1700s	worry potentially or or concern as in
1703s	recent years the value of gold has has
1707s	diminished you're seeing items getting
1708s	into astronomical prices so uh just
1712s	broad conceptually if you could take me
1715s	through how you view the inflation
1717s	problem or is it a problem even and
1719s	the uh the reason why it's important to
1722s	pull gold out of the game
1723s	yeah inflation inflation is complicated
1725s	because it's a really scary word
1726s	obviously somewhere that comes from like
1727s	real life economics and inflation in
1730s	real life is is kind of scary because
1732s	the price of everything goes up and your
1733s	salary doesn't necessarily increase and
1735s	now you can't afford things you could
1736s	afford last year runescape is
1738s	interesting in the sense that when
1740s	inflation goes up
1741s	the price of things goes up but most
1743s	players are making most of their money
1745s	through items which they sell on the ge
1747s	which also go up in value the value of
1750s	alcohols doesn't change but i think
1752s	probably most people would agree the
1753s	value of alcohol skews a little high
1754s	anyway and in fact is the source of
1756s	inflation so actually the value of
1758s	alcohols goes down over time which
1760s	gradually reduces the effect that
1762s	they're having on inflation over time
1763s	but you're in a sense you're earning
1765s	potential and your like your spending
1767s	requirements kind of increase roughly in
1769s	parity with each other so inflation
1771s	doesn't work quite the same way in
1772s	runescape as it does in
1774s	real life that said i mean there's one
1776s	particularly obvious problem with
1777s	inflation in runescape which is that a
1779s	while ago now we hit the gold cap value
1781s	on the ge and certain items simply can't
1783s	be traded which frankly is a bit
1785s	ridiculous so with the with the update
1787s	where the ge tax is uh being applied
1790s	we're also going to be um
1793s	lifting that restriction on the ge so
1795s	you'll be able to trade items above max
1797s	cash on the g there's some wizardry
1798s	going on the back end of the engine from
1800s	player point of view it should just look
1803s	transparently like you can
1805s	put in a value larger than 2v is there
1808s	any cap on that or is it there is a
1810s	theoretical cap you're not going to hit
1811s	that guy it's two billion times two
1813s	billion so you're not you're not gonna
1814s	wow wait is that correct yeah that's
1816s	right yeah it's tributary
1817s	two point one four seven times two point
1819s	one four seven so no item will ever
1822s	eclipse that i mean never say never
1824s	we might we might get crazy
1827s	look at the price it will be hard it
1829s	would be very difficult
1831s	someone would need to sit down and work
1833s	out like if we increase inflation by 100
1835s	every year it'll take how many years two
1836s	million years to reach that capital
1837s	something it's unlikely to ever reach
1839s	that country astronomically large number
1841s	yeah that will also be the money pouch
1843s	will also go up to that value as well
1845s	that's fantastic coin stacks won't
1848s	change because we're not changing the
1849s	underlying way that coin stacks work
1851s	it's kind of like a
1852s	way of dodging the cat yeah exactly in
1854s	your coin pouch there's something on the
1856s	in the system behind the scenes
1859s	um happening to avoid the yeah the cap
1862s	but as a player you'll just see your
1864s	your money pouch goes higher yeah
1866s	exciting so yeah your money power will
1868s	increase effectively an infinite value
1870s	like it's not actually infinite but it's
1871s	larger than i think you can
1872s	realistically reach yeah
1874s	i'm blown away by that and i think
1876s	that's i mean that's a very significant
1878s	change i think the max cash stack has
1880s	been you know an iconic thing for a very
1882s	very long time but
1884s	to your point with the value of gp
1886s	getting lower and item is going above
1888s	max cash it creates a significant
1890s	problem it becomes difficult to buy and
1892s	sell items it also becomes difficult to
1894s	get a fair price on on items or know the
1896s	value of items
1898s	um so i i mean my suspicion is that will
1900s	help a lot of people i think personally
1902s	that's that's large
1903s	um
1904s	do you look at like merchers or
1907s	merchanting as as something that
1910s	you know might be impacted by this or
1911s	rather something that maybe needed to be
1913s	balanced around
1914s	i guess it's worth distinguishing
1916s	between
1917s	like
1919s	i
1920s	trade in what you could consider
1921s	essential items like fsoa
1925s	where like it's a part of the game like
1927s	it's like we drop rare drops from they
1929s	come into the game they're expected to
1930s	be traded
1931s	they're part of the game play the game
1932s	which is a little different from the
1934s	discontinued rares market which is kind
1935s	of its own kind of bubble
1937s	um so we're treating those as two
1938s	separate problems so it's very important
1940s	that we enable trade in
1943s	rare but important gameplay items um
1946s	because it's if i can't get the value
1948s	out of the boss kill
1949s	because of the way the system works
1950s	that's a bit ridiculous we need to fix
1952s	that
1953s	looking at pie hats is a slightly
1954s	separate problem um
1957s	obviously they will be tradable on the
1958s	ge as well but because the supply and
1962s	the
1964s	because the the number of them is so low
1966s	and the price of them has become so
1968s	inflated
1969s	we're going to be looking at them in
1971s	particular and deciding what to do about
1972s	them as a separate problem from like
1974s	rare boss drops um okay so i don't want
1977s	like every time we talk about the
1978s	economy it wreaks havoc on the economy
1980s	yes i'm very wary of saying anything in
1982s	particular
1983s	but those are two separate problems and
1984s	we do want to look at them
1986s	my personal take would be that i think
1989s	it's kind of dropped off now
1991s	but around the time i started looking
1993s	into runescape you know
1995s	sorry i was new to runescape 12 years
1997s	ago
1998s	party hats were an important aspiration
2000s	for people
2001s	like they were a part of the game's
2003s	ecosystem i'm going to save up to buy a
2004s	party hat and i think that's died off in
2006s	part because
2008s	pie hats are just kind of a playground
2009s	for merches instead yes they're no
2011s	longer an aspirational thing because you
2013s	can't afford them they go up in price
2014s	faster than you can possibly earn you
2016s	can't afford you couldn't get one by
2018s	playing the game exactly predominantly
2019s	unless you you know did something
2020s	exactly that feels like something has
2022s	gone from runescape to me there that's
2024s	my personal take i'm kind of not happy
2026s	about where it is i don't think we need
2028s	a play thing for merchants too
2029s	unattainable yeah exactly and it feels
2032s	like there's just a subset of players
2034s	that are
2035s	just going around themselves and the
2038s	prices are going up but yeah exactly
2039s	there's no real trade happening because
2041s	it's just in a finite loop and they just
2043s	control the market so they're exactly
2045s	yeah they're kind of just do and that's
2046s	not like i don't i don't be too cynical
2048s	about it but like it's not doing us any
2049s	good
2050s	it's not doing players any good if you
2052s	aspire to buy a party hat
2054s	that's rubbish you can't or if you do
2056s	you're paying an astronomical amount
2058s	that doesn't feel which is essentially
2060s	an imaginary made-up number
2062s	but yeah so sorry yeah i want to make
2063s	clear that like addressing
2066s	discontinued rares is its own very
2067s	specific very highly sensitive problem
2070s	that we can't just apply a flat solution
2073s	to based on regular trading i think a
2076s	natural fault to that is although
2078s	unintended in this ge tariff and update
2081s	of going above max cash
2083s	do you think it will have an impact on
2085s	the on the rear market or is that a
2086s	potential you know positive that could
2088s	come out of come out of this
2090s	if we don't change anything else
2093s	i think with a with with the way that
2096s	they're currently traded and the control
2097s	over the market of them i find it
2099s	unlikely that people will be in a hurry
2101s	to list them on the ge okay so it
2103s	probably won't affect if if we don't do
2105s	anything else i think it probably won't
2106s	have much impact on them okay um the
2109s	ability to trade some items doesn't
2111s	necessarily mean that people will trade
2112s	them
2113s	and i suppose that's
2115s	you know significantly less important
2117s	than focusing on an item like the
2119s	fractured staff of armadale if that's
2120s	above max cash and people can't use the
2122s	grand exchange to sell pieces of it
2124s	exactly that is significantly more
2125s	problematic because it's a core part of
2128s	the game now anyone who wants this
2130s	highly useful highly sought after item
2132s	now has to stand where we are world to
2134s	get exchange and type over and over and
2137s	over again and not know if you're
2138s	getting a fair price and
2139s	all the rest
2140s	yeah
2142s	unless you're playing iron man runescape
2143s	is a game about economics yes
2146s	but i feel like a lot of players don't
2148s	think of it as a game about economics
2150s	and don't necessarily interacting in
2152s	that way they don't recognize yeah
2154s	that's what they're doing yeah it's one
2155s	of one of one of the early things i was
2157s	i was fascinated by was how change of
2159s	verse runescape runescape and
2161s	runescape's community fascinate me
2163s	because it's it's an extremely
2164s	change-aversed community
2166s	i mean you can see that
2168s	very strongly in old school but even in
2169s	rs3 it's still a thing and yet runescape
2171s	is like the most frequently updated game
2173s	even though our update rate is lower
2174s	than it used to be it's still extremely
2176s	frequently updated
2177s	but our players kind of don't want
2178s	anything to change and i feel like
2179s	inflation is part of that that like the
2182s	idea that items fluctuate in value over
2184s	time disturbs people the idea that like
2186s	they see the items in their bank as an
2188s	investment and if the value of them
2189s	drops
2190s	that's us stealing money from them but
2192s	we can't that we genuinely like um so
2194s	prior to timbo taking over as balancer
2197s	our balance philosophy was very much we
2201s	must maintain the value of things at all
2202s	time and i don't think we can maintain
2205s	that philosophy
2207s	so we couldn't maintain that philosophy
2209s	like it wasn't possible to have the game
2212s	constantly changing but the economy
2214s	never changed the value of items of
2215s	course fluctuates over time something we
2217s	can do about that the fact that dragon
2218s	is now at our value isn't an avoidable
2220s	problem of course it's our value it
2222s	can't not be it would take a a lot to
2224s	make it not
2226s	value and yeah so if you log in with
2228s	your 10 year old account and you're like
2229s	oh sweet it's all my room are still
2230s	really valuable probably like no no not
2233s	really
2234s	that's okay yeah i i suppose is sort of
2237s	where that's going at the same time
2238s	there's going to be some flips where a
2241s	player are playing a log in and they're
2242s	going to have
2244s	magic combos that are fortunate right
2246s	and that's now going to be 10 mil
2248s	when they bought it was a few hundred k
2249s	right yeah um it's just the nature of
2251s	the game it's always going to be be very
2253s	fluid with relation to the grand
2255s	exchange price um i'm gonna bring that
2256s	back to death costs very quickly one of
2258s	the major gripes
2260s	about death costs
2261s	um especially for iron man players
2264s	is iron men don't actively participate
2267s	in the economy the way that a main
2269s	account does
2270s	and yet they are taxed for dying based
2273s	on the current market trend value of an
2276s	attributed item so for example a seismic
2278s	set which are tier 91 or from virago uh
2281s	used to be 200 million coins carapac
2284s	comes out releases some upgrades greater
2285s	concentrated blast now a seismic set is
2287s	over a billion points so those iron men
2290s	that have had seismics for five years
2292s	are now paying 5x
2294s	on an item
2296s	that you know they have had for a very
2298s	very long time and that is an aspect
2300s	that i know for for a number of members
2303s	of that community that's a pretty
2304s	significant kind of pain point for death
2306s	costs
2307s	so is the hope with this death cost
2309s	change that it's just going to be low
2310s	enough that it doesn't matter what the
2312s	ge price is it's still going to be
2314s	manageable and reasonable or do you see
2316s	that as something that could come up
2318s	again as a problem in the future i mean
2320s	if we if we assume that the price of
2321s	things will continue to rise over time
2322s	which i think is a reasonable assumption
2326s	there's no way that it can't
2328s	it could potentially rise to become
2329s	problematic again
2330s	um
2332s	it's an interesting problem because
2334s	obviously the philosophy of iron man
2336s	there are two there are two philosophies
2337s	that go into iron man one is
2339s	you do everything yourself
2341s	you cannot affect nor be affected by
2343s	other players
2344s	um
2346s	but also contrarily we don't build an
2348s	iron man specific game
2350s	that example you've just given is a
2351s	really interesting example of a conflict
2353s	between those because i would say at a
2354s	philosophical level
2356s	the ge price of things shouldn't matter
2358s	to you as an iron man right
2360s	but it does through that mechanic
2362s	that suggests to me
2364s	that it should work differently
2366s	it's interesting because iron men are
2369s	naturally affected by the economy though
2371s	because when we're
2373s	when we release content the the drop
2375s	tables are
2377s	done in a way to match the economy yeah
2379s	the economy is going up you're getting
2380s	more gold from drops than naturally
2382s	being affected yeah so that's true an
2384s	iron man now
2386s	doing
2387s	uh
2389s	say ed3 obviously injects a lot of money
2392s	versus an iron man say five to ten years
2395s	ago
2396s	that was doing
2398s	cow fight king the amount of money
2399s	they're receiving from doing pvm is
2401s	completely different yeah um with
2405s	ed3 now granting them more money than
2407s	ever it kind of makes sense that
2409s	the death cost relates to the current
2411s	economy in that way because the content
2413s	relates to the current economy
2415s	um
2416s	it's interesting because it's kind of
2417s	it's basically expressed entirely
2419s	through the inflation on alcohols yes
2421s	like in our couples
2422s	inflate in a different way that we
2424s	manually
2425s	set out drops
2427s	off how many in the quantity that come
2429s	into the game depending on our judgment
2431s	of where inflation is roughly so iron
2433s	men see the benefit of that they don't
2434s	see the natural benefit of inflation
2436s	increasing the value of drugs i think
2438s	you're still correct it's just there's a
2439s	slight difference the alternative would
2440s	be like okay you have a fixed
2443s	a fixed def cost value say for a seismic
2445s	wand of i know 500k
2447s	but then
2449s	say the g value of seismic wand itself
2452s	goes down to two mil
2454s	yeah iron man gonna feel like they're
2455s	being screwed because they're paying
2457s	500k for something normal players are
2458s	paying 20k for i think what you'd have
2461s	to do is you'd have to set it in such a
2463s	way that
2464s	whether it's from the point that
2466s	it's sort of arbitrary but from the
2468s	point that that iron man got that item
2470s	the death cost would never go up from
2471s	that point
2473s	the practical implementation of it would
2474s	have to be just a fixed value yeah we'd
2475s	have to set a fixed value for every item
2477s	and that's what iron men pay instead of
2484s	yeah there were proposals for for death
2486s	costs that were related to the tier of
2488s	your your gear that you had on i think a
2490s	lot of those stem from that also fixes
2492s	the the iron man problem although it
2494s	probably
2495s	in functionality it works imperfectly
2498s	for a bunch of other reasons because not
2500s	all tier 92s or 295s are created equal
2503s	yeah so i think it opens up a slew of
2505s	other issues but that was yeah just one
2507s	of the one of them i mean i i think i
2509s	would say that the cha the the plan
2511s	changes to death costs anyway will
2515s	largely resolve that problem in the
2516s	short term in the sense that a massive
2518s	reduction in death costs benefits
2519s	everybody
2520s	um
2521s	it may be that it becomes a problem
2523s	again in the future i think what you
2524s	said about like
2526s	we we will inevitably see more inflation
2528s	we will inevitably see a rise in alks in
2530s	our alcohols sorry um
2532s	it will always be possible for iron men
2534s	to make more money in the future um
2537s	it's it's likely to remain sane for
2540s	quite a long time to come
2542s	there's a separate sort of like
2545s	how how would it work ideally separate
2547s	from is this good enough and i think
2549s	it's probably good enough and actually
2551s	doing the ideal solution would involve
2552s	going in and like manually setting the
2555s	prices things yeah yeah it would have to
2557s	be based on the on the on the vendor
2558s	value i guess and then and then that
2560s	changes the value but we don't pay too
2562s	much attention to the to the to the like
2565s	the mark sorry what the alk value of
2567s	high of rare items isn't super important
2570s	so we don't pay too much attention to it
2571s	suddenly we'd have to be razor focusing
2573s	on the the outcome of the value of an
2575s	fsoa
2576s	no one's going
2578s	and suddenly that would matter and we'd
2580s	have to do that for hundreds of
2581s	thousands or more items to fix that
2583s	problem
2584s	i think i think the rough solution that
2586s	just about fixes it probably fine
2587s	perfect world absolutely but feasibly
2590s	what what you have done or what has been
2592s	done should fix the same problem just by
2593s	dramatically reducing them so much that
2596s	you're not looking at an item with a
2597s	super high reclaim cost per say
2600s	um here's a question maybe a little
2602s	technical possibly a brad question if
2605s	you've touched on this
2606s	certain items
2608s	to sort of work around death costs are
2610s	released with arbitrary reclaimed values
2614s	for example one of the two lying swords
2616s	the main hand i believe has an arbitrary
2618s	value the off and is tied to the ge
2620s	price so one is more expensive than the
2621s	other same thing applies with died items
2623s	so a sarin god bow is worth two bill and
2625s	a barrows died sarah and god bow is
2627s	worth 400 mil
2629s	in terms of the reclaim cost so
2631s	with regard to those items are they
2633s	going to be re-tied to the ge or are
2636s	they going to
2637s	just stay as they are they haven't been
2639s	touched
2640s	there's a problem there firstly with
2643s	consistency
2645s	obviously it is a bug that some of these
2647s	have made it through the cracks with
2649s	with values that that aren't equal
2651s	um whilst i kind of like the idea of
2655s	a purchasable item like a die that
2657s	reduces the death cost of that value i
2659s	personally like the idea it's like
2660s	you're investing so you don't pay later
2663s	it's weird but um no these things should
2666s	be consistent um i'm not sure exactly
2669s	what the plan is for
2672s	um
2673s	the updated defcost system i believe
2675s	will be using the ge value
2678s	um so that it's just consistent across
2679s	the board that seems good um i think
2682s	that is the ideal um but
2684s	in the short term even before that these
2686s	inconsistencies should be
2688s	flattened out yeah we should just treat
2689s	them as bugs yeah they are just bugs it
2691s	is literally there is a parameter you
2694s	put on an object and it's just been
2695s	missed on i mean i agree with you that
2696s	there is a there's an interesting reward
2698s	space there i'm not it's potentially
2700s	dangerous because we're talking about
2701s	gold sinks right yeah and like the more
2703s	that we reduce gold sinks the more that
2705s	we in contribute to inflation that's
2706s	kind of the philosophy behind the way
2708s	through masterwork works although it
2709s	doesn't affect the death costs it
2711s	affects the degree
2713s	because it doesn't degrade on task if
2714s	it's trimmed
2715s	the idea is that by making it sorry it's
2717s	not trimmed it's customized when you
2719s	customize it it no longer degrades on
2721s	task
2722s	which has effectively sunk the item out
2724s	of the economy in exchange for reduced
2726s	to grade cost i feel like there is a
2728s	there is a there's a trade-off and
2730s	interesting design space to explore
2731s	there as and when we want to of because
2733s	obviously like items being tradable
2736s	means they can come back into the
2737s	economy means that they're not being
2739s	sunk out of the economy if we if
2741s	you could i mean i think we probably
2742s	wouldn't just implement customize the
2744s	item it's now untradable but you don't
2746s	pay death costs on it i have a feeling
2748s	that would be a net negative on the
2749s	economy rather than a net positive but
2750s	it's it's it's the kind of thing but
2752s	there's a space there that could be
2753s	exactly
2754s	interesting yeah
2755s	um
2756s	that would be that would be an
2757s	interesting one that would be an
2758s	interesting one because that would solve
2759s	the problem for i mean if i'm not saying
2761s	that we should implement exactly what i
2762s	just said yeah but thinking about it
2763s	hypothetically yeah this is how we go
2765s	through design right what would the
2765s	hypothetical impact be of the design
2767s	that we're outlining if we implemented
2769s	that it would actually fix the ironman
2770s	problem because ironmen would have no
2771s	problem customizing their items because
2773s	they have they wouldn't have no reason
2774s	to trade them so if that then made them
2776s	immune to death costs if yeah that's a
2779s	great example of yeah win-win exactly if
2780s	they want to seek out and spend the time
2782s	getting a die from a clue scroll to put
2784s	on an item i'm gonna give them a
2785s	tangible benefit
2788s	i'm intrigued about the potential of
2790s	that very cool i think we probably
2792s	shouldn't do it but i'll see if we can
2793s	explore it worth investigating yeah very
2795s	cool
2796s	i think i mean i feel like it raises the
2798s	topic of
2800s	inflation more generally that
2804s	i think
2805s	we've been talking about you know
2807s	inflation isn't as bad as in real life
2809s	um
2810s	but but it's not something that we want
2814s	we wouldn't want inflation to to just
2816s	accelerate like crazy even just the
2818s	sheer incomprehensibility of the numbers
2819s	i think is a bad thing
2821s	right when you're putting in like you
2822s	know this time next year when you're
2823s	paying 20 billion gold for something and
2825s	you're just like this is just
2826s	meaningless numbers things being
2827s	interesting it's jarring for the player
2829s	base as well already i i know i mean
2831s	youtube gets a lot of lapsed players
2833s	they come out yeah exactly and i have
2834s	players coming back from two years ago
2836s	saying hey what's the best pvm year
2839s	don't worry about the budget
2841s	and then i stop and i say i have a
2844s	feeling we're gonna have to worry about
2846s	the budget and they'll say no no you
2848s	don't i have six bill and you can go you
2851s	can get half of one combat style with
2852s	that all the way maxed out and that is
2855s	extremely you know different from i mean
2856s	if you go back five six seven years you
2858s	could get best in slot for i know it's
2860s	in the hundreds of mills
2861s	and yeah that's changed so it's
2863s	definitely jarring yeah is that one of
2864s	the primary driving forces for wanting
2867s	to reduce this inflation
2869s	if it's not inherently bad for the game
2871s	yeah i think i mean that's the thing
2873s	like yeah with with with an engaged
2875s	player who's buying and selling
2876s	inflation doesn't have that much effect
2878s	but that's that's an example of a of a
2879s	case where it really does have an impact
2881s	the value of the gold in your bank drops
2882s	everything in theory the value of the
2884s	items in your bank increases over time
2886s	but that depends on whether or not
2887s	they're still relevant to the economy
2888s	some items become irrelevant the value
2891s	drops or they get dropped by archicad
2893s	and the value drops right so like yeah
2895s	we can't protect your bank in that
2897s	regard so the reason i bring this up is
2899s	i don't want to create the impression
2900s	that we just don't care about inflation
2901s	it is bad it's just not
2904s	life it's not as bad as it would be in
2906s	in real life
2908s	you're not going to lose your house as a
2909s	result right like yeah hopefully um
2912s	um so the the reason i want to bring
2914s	that up is it it's it's
2916s	it's a delicate balance like we could
2919s	we could kill inflation overnight we
2921s	could just remove all alcohol from drop
2923s	tables
2924s	easy
2926s	and and that's the like that is the
2928s	overwhelming majority of the gold that
2929s	comes into the game comes from alcohols
2931s	and pvm
2932s	um i think i talked about this recently
2934s	about saying like
2935s	stone spirits were an experiment in how
2937s	we could address that
2938s	um
2939s	we removed roon but we put salvage on
2942s	basically one to one in order in order
2943s	to make sure that people weren't losing
2944s	money
2945s	i don't think people would want us
2948s	to fix inflation
2951s	by removing all alcohols from the game
2953s	right because then you're not getting
2956s	exactly well all of everything else on
2958s	the drop tables just became more common
2959s	by default or we have to put more
2960s	skilling supplies on or we have to put
2962s	more finished goods on which just
2963s	reduces the value of skills um
2966s	there are levers that we can pull but
2968s	most of them do damage by pulling them
2972s	and that makes the problem very
2973s	difficult to fix the other the other
2975s	obvious one we can do is increase more
2977s	they add more things to the game so we
2978s	talked about a one percent ge tariff we
2981s	could make that 20
2983s	50 and that would cut inflation down
2985s	right because we'd be we'd be absolutely
2987s	money would be pouring out of the game
2988s	yeah fifty percent people wouldn't i
2990s	just don't know
2991s	but yeah that we could make that value
2992s	significantly higher and that would also
2994s	suck money out of the game and it would
2995s	reduce inflation and again i don't think
2997s	i don't think players would want us to
2998s	ship a 20 ge tariff um that would be a
3002s	serious disincentive to trade which
3003s	would be a disincentive to the value of
3005s	items which would make people feel bad
3007s	when they're playing pvm and they get
3008s	drops that aren't worth anything they
3009s	don't feel like they can sell it would
3011s	be very it'd make the experience a lot
3013s	less fun and i think i'm sure there were
3015s	discussions internal five percent two
3017s	percent one percent of what certain
3018s	amount and i think one person's probably
3019s	right on the money because anything past
3022s	that and you know there's a chance that
3024s	there's a certain subset of player that
3025s	will be unhappy selling an item and and
3027s	getting less back for it i think one
3029s	percent is fairly reasonable i think the
3031s	majority of players you chuck it in at
3032s	minus five anyway because you want to
3034s	sell it for whatever the highest price
3036s	is and i don't personally think and this
3039s	is you know my my stance in the
3040s	community that people are going to be
3042s	too upset with the one percent i think
3044s	and there might be some who are upset
3046s	because you know a one percent decrease
3048s	to you know pvm profit or or any kind of
3050s	profit you know to a certain subset of
3053s	player that can be a pretty significant
3054s	negative but i think most are gonna
3056s	happily roll with it and know that the
3058s	burden of the economy is no longer on
3061s	just people trying to learn yeah
3063s	absolutely yeah be a much healthier
3064s	place yeah well that is all the time we
3067s	have thank you all so much for tuning in
3069s	and we will see you in the next one

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