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Mod Jack spent the vast majority of the stream going over why there is a discrepancy between what players think needs tweaking and what Jagex does. His point about how deep the rabbit hole can get on ostensibly simple things has serious merit, but I think in this particular instance he's missing a massive stumbling block. Namely, that the FSOA is and should be BIS and worthy of its tier ranking.

Honestly, I don't think anyone is really trying to argue that the current state of the critstick is healthy even now, let alone long-term. The way that it constrains future crit-based updates is not nice, and the damage it can hose out is obscene, even for its tier. However, the fact remains that it is the single highest tier weapon in mainscape, and it SHOULD feel as such. While it does so in an overkill fashion, it accomplishes this task admirably. The Zuk sword to make a comparison only does so partially, as shown by how it's instantly fed to an EOF so that a lesser weapon can use its spec because that weapon makes better use of the Zuk sword's spec than the sword itself.

When the FSOA was announced as a nerf target, people panicked because they remember Jagex's let's charitably call it jaded history with nerfs. They occasionally get it right, but when they get it wrong, it usually takes months if not years for it to be fixed, assuming it's ever touched again. This is bad enough for normal content, but for a BIS weapon it shakes the entire combat style, not to mention slaps the previous paragraph with a rotten fish. This gives any such discussions far more weight than for normal user-level content discussions, and should be treated with that level of seriousness. This hasn't happened regularly in the past, to the detriment of the game as a whole.

Every time Jagex ignores player feedback and suggestions, or even better handwaves it with comments about 'we are looking at the bigger picture' without explaining what that bigger picture IS, they are damaging the player base's willingness to engage at all. And much like with restaurants, if the customer feels that telling the developer about problems is farting in the wind, they will vote with their feet. It seems like people have generally agreed that the current FSOA nerfs aren't untenable (though they do risk reducing the critstick to EOF fodder, which is not OK), but this response NEEDS to be remembered by Jagex before they oops something more serious.

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over 1 year ago - /u/JagexHooli - Direct link

Every time Jagex ignores player feedback and suggestions, or even better handwaves it with comments about 'we are looking at the bigger picture' without explaining what that bigger picture IS, they are damaging the player base's willingness to engage at all

This is a very fair point, but I hope it'll be of some reassurance to know that we aren't handwaving the feedback away (and I don't think that was the intention of Jack's mention on stream last night).

Your feedback on FSOA absolutely HAS made a difference. Sponge is on holiday for a bit and owns these changes primarily - so it'll be a little while before we give a firm update - but before he left there's already been things put in motion to react to it.

Rebalancing FSOA is still important to the team, but the way in which we do it will change based on the feedback we've received. We would love to share more details right now, but with Sponge out at the moment, it's too early to share those thoughts just to make sure we represent the proposed changes when they are fully formed rather than initial concepts.

Just wanted to make that super clear - if we open these opportunities for feedback, we will provide follow up either to explain aspects of feedback that conflict with design intent (and be clear on that bigger picture) or how we're adapting things based on your feedback (which should be the more common of the two!).

over 1 year ago - /u/JagexHooli - Direct link

Originally posted by YouWereTehChosenOne

Most people can agree that the issue is that they did not think this was an issue until now, nearly 18 months down the line. They already nerfed it and then buffed it to recurse on auto crits, but it is only recently that they’ve realized it’s holding back critical strike buffs.

If this tweak was made before the end of 2021 I would’ve still been content with it but it’s been way way too long for any reasonable person to react positively to it. It’s what I really despise about modern developments going on at jagex, they’re super hesitant to do knee jerk reactions but then take far too long to implement tweaks or changes by which point players get punished for not engaging with the content when it was super broken and also punish players for engaging with the content + getting used to the change it brought to the game.

I have no doubt that there will be new abilities and items that could make the BOLG super easy to cheese the special effect where every other ability gets that boosted damage, and now we run into an issue with introducing new multi hitting abilities because it makes it more and more easier to use the BOLG more effectively, so they end up nerfing the passive and people are punished for investing into the ranged combat style.

For melee, I could imagine a scenario where chaos roar gets nerfed because abilities are hitting way too f**king high with the buff under a bunch of new gear and items so they nerf the damage boost + cooldown.

If this tweak was made before the end of 2021 I would’ve still been content with it but it’s been way way too long for any reasonable person to react positively to it. It’s what I really despise about modern developments going on at jagex, they’re super hesitant to do knee jerk reactions but then take far too long to implement tweaks or changes

This is something we're trying to change as a team all-up at the moment - we want to be more reactive (at the right times) to things like balance or community feedback.

It is very important to allow things time to settle - though we're talking weeks/months on that, not years. Initial reactions can sometimes not be the same as the long term reaction, and that time also provides enough space for a quality set of data that can provide additional insight.

In terms of doing these things over a year later, I think I speak for the team in saying that's not our ideal timeline either - but the important thing is getting these changes going now to solve the design problems they cause rather than just leaving them forever and working around them.

That means at the moment there's some more long-standing issues we're addressing that do cause this "Why now?" frustration. What we hope is that you'll see how your feedback has shaped these changes and through a dialogue we can land somewhere where it makes sense for everybody.

(And just to be super clear, we aren't just going to be out here looking for feedback on long-standing issues - this is part of our work as a whole to have more direct discussions on potential changes ahead of time rather than just taking your feedback in after the fact!).

over 1 year ago - /u/JagexHooli - Direct link

Originally posted by Vpeyjilji57

Because there's too many changes being made at once to easily calculate the effect, I will need to actually play with it for a few hours before I can conclude whether it was too heavily nerfed, and I'm scared I will suddenly not be able to beat Solak anymore.

One of the key notes we took from the feedback is exactly along these lines.

No commitments or promises for this happening, as it may not be possible to do right now and will instead need to be something we look at future proposed balance updates for other things, but we are discussing if a Beta server is possible to get the V2 Proposed Changes for FSOA into your hands for further feedback.

over 1 year ago - /u/JagexHooli - Direct link

Originally posted by Fren-LoE

I know economic impact is a topic associated with betas. So, i figure I'd draw some perspective. I'm hoping people agree with my point that regardless of the negative aspect the beta would introduce to the live game economy, I think everyone absolutely agrees that we care more about these items being balanced properly and quickly. Rather than try to make some quick gp panic buying/selling based on initial indications from the team with regard to the release time of certain items.

I think we're less concerned about that than we used to be - in the sense that having any sort of open dialogue can cause that reaction, just like a Beta. We've even had small indications we've given on stream impact the market.

It's something we're sensitive to for sure - we absolutely won't ever disregard it - but the priority for us right now is making sure we do a better job of being open and bringing your perspectives into more of what we do ahead of a release.