[2018] Mining & Smithing Rework - Updated Masterwork Armour Design

Originally posted by ghfhfhhhfg9

I am guessing blood tendrils or even taking 1-2-3 hits of damage into a defender into revenge might be really good for t92 armor's set effect for dps.

EDIT: "slayer or reaper task" sounds weird. If I had a solak reaper, would it degrade to blightbounds/manifests? Just sound's odd to code in general.

50% more up time is good. Wish it was 100% more uptime and just gave the 100% more up time to t92 armor along with set effect. I find the reaper/slayer task pretty meh and not good design. t92 armor with slayer is not what many people will do at all, and having it on reaper encourages dailyscape of doing reapers everyday and people might not boss because they don't have a reaper for that boss if this were to continue.

It's just the fact t92 armor is not big dps increase as weapons/rings/amulets/etc. (face value stats, we'll c how the set effect works with revenge) I don't see why you are so afraid of making it less expensive to use. You are afraid of the armor lasting too long and the economy crashing or something? The truth is if all t92 sets lasted 100% longer (200,000 charges I believe) more people would buy it and thus more things leave the game. Making it so high and degrade to dust is not fun game design at all.

Originally posted by HashTagDeeperino

Like Jack has said, we cannot (or rather, will not) give a damage boosting set-effect.

I'm not totally sure but I think they know, and they're just giving feedback that is, in essence, "f**k that decision".

Originally posted by VzSAurora

How would the Dot work with say enhanced devoted, would each hit have a chance to proc or only the initial hit?

Originally posted by mezekaldon

Will trimmed masterwork degrade in elite dungeons? Also, why are ed1 and ed2 giving t92 upgrades to existing t90 sets, but t92 melee set requires t80 AND t90, and none of it from ed3?

Originally posted by Vex_rs

So you don’t need a full set of torva? 6 torva helms still give 12 essences and is cheaper than a full set

Originally posted by NosPhoenix

And prayer bonus, right?

Originally posted by Jefflex4

Set effect is awfull. Please be ashamed. I prefer nothing over this misplaced effect.

Originally posted by Nuku_

With the fact that you need a full armor set of torva and malevolent to make the trimmed armor as well as repairing it with only base materials, won't that make RotS essentially dead content? If you only need to use the pvm materials once nobody is going to go to RotS as the price of malevolent energy will drop significantly, which is where most of the money comes from. I thought the essences were a good idea, why did you change them? Maybe the amount of essence you needed could have been changed, but now making the pvm materials only needed once just doesn't make much could sense to me. It made Nex more appealing as well as kept RotS in the same state with the essence method in place. You would use the trimmed masterwork most likely for higher tier bossing, which I would expect need some sore of pvm materials to upkeep.

TLDR: the essence method was better than making people have to use a full set, why did there need to be a change (other than the amount of essence needed)

Originally posted by Gaga_Lady

I absolutely get that, and see where you're coming from. Like I said, I really appreciate the hard effort you've put into this. However, I disagree with what the combat council has said, and I'm hoping that players showing their disinterest may allow things to change.

Originally posted by Vex_rs

I see. Would be nice to have a confirmation /u/jagexjack

Originally posted by HashTagDeeperino

Definitely understand it's not your decision and such - I just hope the people who get to make that decision hear us.

Originally posted by Windsofthepast

While I still feel like the set effect is better suited for tank armour, this doesn't really change the fact that tank armour still needs to be fixed, and this is a perfect time to do so, given that you're adding four new tiers to melee armour.

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Jagex please, you guys have beat around the bush with this issue long enough. This needs to be addressed or it's never going to be.

Originally posted by Zaraos

Essence may still be how it works, the wording may have been wrong but the concept has changed and the point of the comment has been missed. Yes essence is still required as you have just said but the long term value of bosses like ROTS are still in jeopardy with this new system. By removing the PVM armours (Torva and Malevolent) from the repair process of the new T92 trimmed Masterwork Armour, it creates a massive long term drop in the Armours. Once the new masterwork and trimmed masterwork armours are circulating in the 10000s which will happen, the value of them will now drop too. Malevolent is literally going to be useless as an armour, masterwork alone sees to that, literally no one will use malevolent anymore. which in turn will make ROTS become dead content as the energy will drop. i please ask that this change is reconsidered and to look at the long term effect on the value of malevolent in particular. The original system of requiring the essence to keep the t92 armour running, made this problem non existent. No idea why it was changed unless the goal is to make bosses that have guaranteed income instead of fully rng based dead. Please think about this and consider the effect on the boss rots that these changes will have

Originally posted by RS_Horrors

The problem that's going to keep coming up is this armour's set effect seemingly suitable for tank armour, but I think a lot of people are overlooking another aspect of tanking with Melee. The vampyrism items (aura, scrimshaw, blood essence) are items to help users tank, but they rely on DPS output entirely. Trimmed Masterwork Armour works because the damage bonuses from power armour allow the effect to fully utilize vampyrism items in order for Melee to be more viable for end-game bossing. The set effect does not reduce damage, but instead you are given a chance to heal through leech effects with better DPS yielding greater return.

Assume that the set effect was instead used for tank armour - would it be as viable as power armour with no set effect? Probably not since end-game is all about getting the fastest kills and the meta would remain with Magic being top dog. If going with Melee, people would still use power armour and potentially get more out of healing from their vampyrism items from the damage bonuses. You may think, "but hey guy, the set effect would make it easier to deal with punishment when learning with new bosses" and I agree with you, but wouldn't that be better reserved for Achto?

I ask people to reconsider what it means to tank with Melee as opposed to the other combat styles because Melee has different problems (mobility, tanking multiple attack styles, limited effects when compared to Magic especially). This set effect will make offensive melee much better. Defensive melee deserves it's own time for care and balancing.

Originally posted by Windsofthepast

I feel as if this should have been it's on project developed alongside the M&S rework way back when in 2016 because it was just as much an issue then as it is now. The fact that you guys are getting ready to release 4 tiers of useless armour is a bit disappointing. If an update to address this was coming out with / around the same time as the M&S update then it would be understandable, but given how you guys are with getting issues like these resolved, it's very likely that this won't be addressed by 2020 and the 4 tiers of armour will be useless the whole while.

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I'm not upset that the M&S rework doesn't cover this, I totally understand the fact that it's outside of this scope, I'm upset that despite the fact that the M&S update is coming out and will make this issue even more apparent, nothing is being done about it in an attempt to resolve it. This'll just end up as more unfinished business that may or may not see the light of day by 20XX.

Originally posted by RunicLordofMelons

Alright if you guys feel you can't add extra dmg power on top of everything the armour already has. In the intrest of not making players even more powerful, Here are a few other suggestions that don't buff damage, but also don't feel like set effects that would work way better for tank armour.

Bind a target (not stun), if they are out of melee distance from you.

The armour can "drag", enemies within 2 squares of you towards you

A chance to prevent opponents from healing

Berzerk will no longer reduce your armour rating while being used.

Chance to temporarily freeze prayer drain, (your prayers remain active but do not drain points)

Bleed Abilities (Blood Tendrils, Slaughter, Dismember, etc) have a chance to be dealt as a single hit as opposed to damage over time.

I get that the issue of tank armour is out of the scope of this rework, and that's a completely fair response. However with this update you guys are introducing multiple sets of tank armour into the game, one of which is fairly high level (Elder Rune), and two sets of top tier power armour. Because of this you still have to contend with the issues that we have with armour right now, so while there's no expectation to solve the problem. Don't make it worse by putting a tank effect onto power armour.

As for the degrading question, I say no. This armour will be expensive as is, and honestly everyone who uses it will quickly augment it. So no point adding extra utility to this armour, when honestly it won't be very much used in it's non augmented state.

Originally posted by Nuku_

How long ago, the beta was only out for the last couple weeks?

Originally posted by Windsofthepast

It's only outclassed when you have access to it, though. The playerbase isn't all maxed out, not everyone who has the levels for it has access to T90 armour. There are still reasons to justify fixing tank armour as a whole even if it's outclassed by something else. The fact that tank armour has been pretty much useless since EoC launched back in 2012 is ridiculous, and the fact that you're trying to justify not including it is arguably so as well. If there is no point in retroactively adding in these items, why are they being added in the first place? I don't mean to sound rude or pissy, but I'm honestly baffled how an argument can be made for having the mining and smithing rework and yet not addressing an extremely large issue at / around the same time that is only going to continue to get worse as time goes on.

I'll end on a positive note, since I wasn't expecting a single reply from you, let alone two; issues with tank armour and incomplete weapon tiers aside, the beta has done more for my interest in Runescape in the past 3 weeks then the majority of this year has done to date. If nothing else, I'm extremely grateful for the time that was put into it and even if all the issues that I've addressed, both on this post and others, aren't addressed by release, I'm convinced that the update is going to be a runner for one of the best updates of 2019. So big thanks to you and the rest of the developers of the re-work because it's been a long time since I've been able to say I was genuinely excited for an update.

Originally posted by Windsofthepast

I guess that's a valid point. I also am tempted to dare you to test me, because honestly I love hearing suggestions regarding how to fix tank armour / shields because it reminds me of the good ol' days of Runescape.

I suppose the issue comes from I was thinking of a fix to tank armour as a collective whole, like a change to how stats are formulated and all that, which is why I strongly believe that it could be a straightforward fix, as opposed to taking the time to give set effects or whatever to each tank set. It would still take time, but not as much as if you assigned an effect per set, or gave each set an effect in addition to a general buff.

As for the big about how the M & S rework helps the case, normally I would agree (and I feel like this point is a little unfair, given how much work and how passionate you guys appear to be regarding the re-work) but Jagex as a whole has more than under delivered on a number of things and there is a huge lack of faith around. My original comment stems from the fact that myself and a number of clanmates are rather fed up with the typical responses that indicate that an issue is acknowledged but being shuffled around some backlog off out of sight. From a neutral standpoint you are correct, but it's hard to view it from that point with how things have been of late. That's not to say you or the rest of the M & S team are responsible for that, it's just the way it is right now. You guys are definitely getting better about things, but wounds over this aren't going to heal instantly.

I do look forward to the day that we can see Tank armour and even shields be more relevant, I hope that with weapon diversity coming sometime soon-ish we can see things like shields being more useful than just a switch as well as tank armour being fixed as well.

A final question, if you don't mind. Due to my recent work schedule I've not been able to watch the live streams or get ahold of anyone on the M & S project to ask, and I've not seen it answered anywhere in the TL;DW posts: Are there any plans that should weapon diversity go well that the remaining weapons be filled out post M & S rework as QoL updates / ninja updates / reward space? I realize you might not be able to say where the update might fall, but has there been any kind of discussion regarding potentially filling out the missing weapons?

Originally posted by Nuku_

Hmm okay, I must have misread the M&S rework wiki then. Thanks for the reply.

Originally posted by Jefflex4

I don't see the need to suggercoat things and hope to prevent you to take this misstep regarding the set effect. As I said, why add an awfull effect if you can leave out the effect instead.