20 days ago - RuneScape - Direct link

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0s um i do personally feel that
3s the staff of armadill
5s went too far
6s okay um
8s you know but there is likelihood that it
10s will
11s get looked at when we're not idiots like
13s um
14s we're aware when things are are super
16s strong
18s and sometimes it's okay to just say hey
20s let's let's see where we're yeah
22s essentially let's see where it settles
23s and this kind of thing
25s same thing happened of greater ricochet
27s where greco
29s um was very strong and we didn't really
32s change it until a year after its release
35s um because
36s you don't want one you don't want to
37s knee-jerk
39s you want to let it
41s find its place you want other rewards to
43s come out and sort of sit around it uh
46s whether it's for that style or other
48s styles
49s um and then we can sort of uh say right
51s let's change it
58s hello and welcome back we are live from
60s jagex hq and i am joined by mod rahman
63s today we are going to be talking about
65s power creep and game balance my name is
67s kyle uh i go by moderation in the
70s runescape community i've worked at jagex
73s and on runescape for nine years now and
75s i am a senior content developer if you
78s want to go into some of the products
79s you've worked on i know i mean one of
81s them is behind us yeah um over the years
84s so i've like i did a a round in qa a
88s couple years um through there so
90s some of my first projects i worked on
92s with um
94s mod crescell things like araksaw uh
96s virago rise of the six
98s so i was exposed to um boss content um
102s weapon balancing i was a player
103s beforehand um
105s my favorite boss being nex obviously
108s next really changed the game when
110s it brought in the zarite bow uh we had
112s stepped up from the original god was
114s dungeon which was tier 70 or 275 i
117s remember
118s um and then we brought in you know torva
120s vertis and pernics and you've got these
122s tier 85
123s pieces of armor
125s that was like the first big park it was
127s it was a big step in in in the game's
129s history you know
132s it wasn't too many years after god was
134s dungeon the original um because this was
137s obviously the fifth boss for for god's
139s dungeon um but we had had engineering
142s prior to that and as a game grows
145s you kind of need rewards that feel good
148s and players want to strive for um but
150s back to the original question
152s so i was exposed to
154s um yeah boss content and then after my
158s years in qa
159s i made uh such pieces of content like
161s angel of death
163s um solac uh lost grove and then all all
166s of these bought into the game powerful
168s pieces of equipment yes um
171s and then in more recent years i've done
174s things like uh kerapak and most recently
177s uh worked with the team on the zamarak
179s lord of chaos boss encounter when you're
181s introducing power creep there's has to
183s be you know an amount of thought that
184s that goes into you know whether it's
186s balancing things or just coming up with
188s creative rewards that are that are
190s satisfying or fun to use and i think
193s you have these phases kind of like what
194s you said with the torah the perkins the
195s verse that like that was a phase we went
197s from the bandos phase to you know yeah
200s and i think the most recent example of
202s like the game changing in a full phase
204s would be the fractured staff of armadale
206s because
207s it just it completely changed the way
209s that people approach the game it
210s completely you know took blew all the
213s damage open numbers out of the water
215s and
216s i think a kind of first specific
218s question on that is just were you
220s satisfied with the power of the
222s fractured staff normal or do you think
224s it came out in a good way or do you even
225s think about that when you're designing
227s it or is it more concept based this
228s would be fun
230s um
231s so we're presented with when we're
233s designing something we are obviously
234s aware of the game's meta right
237s with a game with three combat styles um
240s we know which one is the best which one
242s is the worst and obviously that leaves
244s then
245s the the odd one out
246s sort of in the middle and we have a good
248s understanding of whereabouts that is
250s what what is use usually pretty good is
253s we release a piece of gear
255s and then later on down the line
258s there is a piece of content that sort of
260s requires this piece of gear right so it
262s would be useful for you to have this
264s strong weapon to take down this stronger
266s bus now you saw that with 2011's uh
270s chaos 2010s chaotix with into 2011's
273s next
274s but then as the
276s company was developing the evolution of
278s combat obviously we needed to take
280s combat to a new place
281s um
283s on on release uh you know it didn't go
286s down so well uh it's in a in a really
288s good place now there's so many
289s interesting intricacies of of
291s runescape's combat system so we're
293s obviously super happy
295s but there was a there was a gap um and
296s then eoc came out and that completely
298s changed everything
301s then california king launched
303s what was important after dragons came
305s out is it wasn't long after that the
307s ascension dungeon came out i think it
308s was um must have been around junish of
312s 2013.
313s that's that was one of the first
314s projects i worked on when it came to
316s jagex so in a short time span we had
319s dragons
320s yeah we had um seismics from virago yes
324s and then we have the ascensions so
326s already there's a pool of hey here's a
328s t90 for this style here's the 1090 for
330s this style and here's the 290 for this
331s style
332s so there's almost a there's a combat
334s style discrepancy and they're kind of
335s there have been many you know over time
337s or one style takes precedence but the
339s the significance there is that although
340s one style was stronger than the others
342s for a period of time it wasn't long
344s before the others were also brought up
346s yeah up to speed and
349s the the evolution of combat was also in
351s a very infant state right yes all the
354s ability all the different styles had a
356s here's a stun ability here's just a
358s basic shot ability and a hit ability and
360s a fire mage ability yeah it's probably a
362s lot easier to
364s balance the combat styles when
367s each each style didn't really have a
368s unique feel at all there's there's
370s balance right yes you know there's a
372s there's a there's a line and they're all
374s sort of
375s there are moments where you'd want to
376s use each combat style exactly iraq's all
378s came out and that was a way of going hey
380s here's all the
382s two-handed versions because the previous
384s were were door-willed
386s and then
387s uh rexella came out and it was like okay
389s here's all the 290s and again
391s maintaining a little bit of balance
393s now in my opinion now this is just
396s obviously my
397s viewpoint on the game as a player over
399s the years and having worked here
401s things started to get a little bit crazy
404s around telos
406s launch
407s okay um take me through that at this
409s point we had reacted to
412s um
414s the the full some of the fallout of
416s evolution of combat so we decided okay
419s we need to sort of make special attacks
421s again start thinking about special
422s attacks because we had started to offer
424s legacy mode for
426s players who weren't so
429s into
430s evolution of combat right yeah there's a
433s there's a there's a whole array of
436s players that wanted to use legacy mode
438s so legacy made when you think about that
440s and its combat system and what
441s everything was prior to ufc was you
444s would
445s and then you would use a special attack
447s right so you're effectively it was
449s looking at a way to give abilities to
451s someone who was not using it exactly so
453s one of the important things from the
454s telos release again it's a it was a solo
456s boss and it introduced
459s a two-handed item for each of the attack
462s styles
463s um we had to make them good and they had
466s to have special attacks the mage one the
468s maids pressure attack is a dud right no
470s one no one uses it our players have been
471s crying out for us to yes
474s make it relevant or rework it um over
477s the years and um so that instantly from
480s the get-go
481s of that point
483s mage had four tick auto attacking sort
486s of kind of coming to the light so that
488s was already the best attack style
490s um but then you had the sgb the xaros
493s black hole and then
494s well you had the zgs yeah the sgb all
497s these acronyms yeah um
499s and that's where things start to go whoa
502s what's going on because metas such as
504s four tick auto attacking were coming to
506s the top and now we're at a point where
509s players are going hey
512s mage is major's the best mage is the
514s best mage is the best
517s x is the worst there's a point at which
519s we we looked at what we were doing and
522s in my opinion it's a mistake for us to
524s release something and go right here's
527s the whole set
529s ranged weapon ranged melee mage and go
533s right
534s boom
534s here's all three
536s in one content drop whereas what would
539s be what is beneficial to us one as a
541s as a company um is to say right this
544s piece of content has this piece this
546s reward this piece of content has this
548s reward and this piece of content as this
549s award when we don't make meaningful
551s rewards
552s um or something launches and it doesn't
555s have a a good set of rewards
558s there's no secret like players are
559s disgruntled about it and they do kick up
561s a bit of a fuss and they do make noise
564s and we hear that so we need to be very
566s careful with
568s how we are sort of giving rewards to the
570s players
571s and when we do that
574s that attack style is like cool zoom
577s sometimes up to the top and sometimes
580s when we release a piece of content with
582s a reward
583s that reward isn't enough to
587s push it past this
589s right so maybe release like when uh
591s greater ricochet came out yeah that zoom
594s range yeah range all of a sudden
596s the strongest style for a lot of things
598s range sits in a really interesting place
600s because
602s it
602s of the attack styles it has the most it
605s has ecb
606s sgb
608s it's got the criminals we we did it's
610s got the dark bow it's got the new arrows
611s as well it's got the dark eof you know
613s eof is one of the most complicated
615s things we've we've added to runescape
617s and super interesting i imagine we'll
619s sort of get on to that yeah actually if
620s we could hop into that now yeah no
622s problem but you can see how when we
624s release a piece of content
625s and we are now doing here's one style
629s per piece of reward content how we now
632s go
632s and it goes up and then
634s that's the top attack style actually
636s before we get into eofs because i think
637s that's a really interesting topic and
638s that completely changed the game in so
640s many ways i realized you you asked about
642s the staff of armada we are we're here
643s well we are in a place just to call back
645s to the staff nominal um i think you
647s could compare it to one of those areas
649s like drag risk where magic all of a
651s sudden became the best at just about
653s everything if you can physically bring
655s the combat style there it will either be
657s the best or it will be the easiest and
659s one of the things you said is that that
660s is okay so long as in the not so distant
663s future the other styles also get brought
665s back up so is that something to be to be
668s expected with the other styles where
669s it's like okay magic is now here so now
671s we have to touch the other ones
672s absolutely um it's it's it's a design
675s philosophy that is often done you know
678s flavor of the month and in in recent
680s years the the
682s it's kind of flavor of the year because
683s sometimes yeah there's a little more
685s time yeah things dominate for so long
687s and that comes with problems um because
690s if someone if range is so good for so
692s long then a player might get comfortable
694s only using ranged and even when we start
696s to drip feed in let's say magic gear
699s they might be like well range is still
700s so good so why bother i mean they sort
702s of fall behind on the whole even out of
705s the hypothetical we can look at melee
706s right now there have been a number of
708s melee updates that have made melee you
710s know a little bit better a little bit
711s better a little bit better where at this
712s point if you're experienced in melee you
715s know how yeah you can compete decently
718s well with the other styles right now
720s yeah it's not quite quite there but it's
722s pretty close but for most people at this
725s current juncture magic is your bread and
727s butter you know how to use it it's easy
728s to use so for a lot of people they're
730s not going to switch over unless
731s something happens that just brings it to
733s the point where it's like okay i have to
735s now switch it up yeah no for sure um
740s the intricacies of some some combat
742s styles ranged is quite intricate and i'd
744s say melee is the most intricate because
746s once you know how to
748s put all these pieces together and really
751s um some of the magic of of runescape
754s really the sandbox combat system the
756s fact that players are able to switch
758s pieces of gear
760s in the flick of a switch right and then
762s switch back
764s just to benefit
765s naught point something from this piece
767s or 0.2 from this ring or i have an
770s adventure component on sorry i mentioned
773s perk on this piece of gear and i want to
775s use it because it goes with this ability
778s whilst
779s there is a a say a call out for hey
782s switch cape's kind of getting a bit out
783s of hand it's like
785s it's kind of the magic of runescape
787s being a sandbox the fact that the
788s players can switch between three
790s different combat styles seamlessly
793s seamlessly you know in a quotation yeah
796s it's like it's it's all player skill
797s it's how quick yeah it's a number of
799s instruments
801s unless you're using a robot exactly
803s uh-huh
804s um
805s but compare that to when eoc first began
807s like players
809s over the years have slowly figured
811s things out figured things out and
813s sometimes things aren't
815s they
816s do methods that weren't in
818s really intended or designed but when you
821s look at it as a
823s as a company and and people who balance
825s this game and just sort of our
827s caretakers
828s you can go
830s it's fine like onslaught like fractured
832s stuff of armadale right yeah just for
834s just for context for for those that
836s maybe don't know um onslaught was a
839s guaranteed critical strike every time so
840s if you're an onslaught in a fractured
842s staff normal special you would basically
844s get an infinite onslaught it would never
846s really end it would just keep stacking
848s up damage over and over again because
849s you'd continue to replenish adrenaline
851s with every critical strike
852s so it was never intended that way and i
855s can say that because i designed the
856s ability you designed outside um i did it
858s yeah back in 2014 of raids didn't code
861s it but designed it yes um
864s and
865s it was fine because we weren't leaning
867s into crep but then once you start um
870s leaning into um
872s intricacies of the combat system again
874s the fracture staff of armadillos sort of
876s lets off an extra spell cast every time
878s you crept right yes
880s so players would activate the special
883s attack get to 100 adrenaline
885s jump onslaught right so you're going
887s crap crap craig crick correct now these
890s spell attacks can craft themselves
893s so we were looking at that and going
896s whoa
899s what are we what do we touch here what
901s do we have to touch something yes
903s something's got to give right so we
905s looked at the the way onslaught was
907s working we're like oh that you know
910s originally isn't working as intended so
912s we tone that back
913s um rather than than tone tone-ups as
917s long as it doesn't completely
919s strip away everything that the original
921s ability did which it doesn't it just
923s does the same amount of damage it just
925s isn't just right as an accurate that's
926s all it was doing it wasn't doing any
928s more damage wasn't doing any less damage
929s it was just like
931s going through the combat system is this
932s a critical strike
934s no
934s that's all we took away
936s um so nothing really lost or gained but
939s because this was the first thing we
940s started to lean into critical strike
942s with
943s it came to
944s it was the best thing then but then on
947s the flip side we looked at things like
948s tendrils right
950s tendrils isn't intended to be a
953s that's fine so we actually turned around
955s and said
957s that one's okay and we won't we won't
960s change that yeah even if it's not
961s planned for this doesn't work now
965s comparatively comparatively to other
967s games right we often let things go
970s whereas um
972s a game like uh
974s world of warcraft or league of legends
975s can just go
978s hey we're gonna do a whole redesign
981s this this this item or this
983s ability
984s we're going to change it
986s but don't like the way it works on the
987s matter anymore so
989s it now does the x y or z
991s and that's something we don't do we
993s won't go back and go to berserk
996s all right berserk is now 10 seconds
998s instead of whatever the cooldown is now
1000s pull down or
1001s 20. um so that's something we don't do
1003s so we are an evolving game
1006s that
1007s stats will stay the same so um that's
1011s one of the bigger things that i think
1013s makes power creep
1015s seem way worse than it is is because a
1018s lot of players go back to a lot of older
1020s content that hasn't ever had a stat
1022s squish or a bring up
1025s so other games again
1028s they some they do things in seasons
1030s so
1032s when a new season or dlc or patch or
1035s whatever comes out
1037s they often say cool here's everything
1039s from that previous patch and we don't
1040s worry about it right and then everything
1043s that they release from the new patch is
1045s relevant to the new patch to the power
1048s um and that's something we've never done
1050s we sort of did it with uh evolution of
1052s combat where we tweet some some damage
1054s levels across the game but it's not
1056s something we do runescape is a live game
1060s um
1061s anything relevant from 20 years ago is
1064s is
1065s as it was 20 years ago with relation to
1069s you know things staying the same as they
1071s are
1072s do you feel as though
1073s the
1074s the i think there's a sentiment among
1076s people towards the end game that like
1077s the game is getting easier and easier
1079s over time um
1081s and i think a lot of that probably stems
1083s from you know maybe a lack of difficult
1085s thing to continue to push the end game
1087s you know to a to another level
1089s um
1089s [Music]
1090s just from a from a design standpoint do
1093s you feel that the fractured staff of
1094s armadale for example because let's say
1096s that gave you the ability to do half a
1097s million damage per minute it's somewhere
1099s around there in like a perfect vacuum
1102s yeah um
1103s do you think that that was okay for the
1106s game so long as future content could be
1108s made potentially requiring those levels
1110s of damage output
1112s yeah so is that a caveat that that's
1114s important
1115s i believe i personally believe so i
1118s think um
1119s as long as we are
1120s giving challenging content that requires
1124s um the use of
1125s this dpm output or these weapons um
1128s as long as there eventually is something
1130s that
1133s allows that to to work and to have its
1135s place then uh that's important um i do
1139s personally feel that
1141s the staff of armadill
1142s went too far
1144s okay um
1146s you know but there is likelihood that it
1147s will
1149s get looked at we
1150s we're not idiots like um
1152s we're aware when things are are super
1154s strong
1156s and sometimes it's okay to just say hey
1158s let's let's see where we're yeah
1160s essentially let's see where it settles
1161s and this kind of thing
1163s same thing happened of greater ricochet
1165s where greco
1167s was very strong and we didn't really
1170s change it until a year after its release
1173s um because
1174s you don't want one you don't want a
1175s knee-jerk
1177s you want to let it
1179s find its place you want other rewards to
1181s come out and sort of sit around it uh
1184s whether it's for that style or other
1185s styles
1186s um and then we can sort of uh say right
1189s let's change it and that's where we do
1191s the whole
1193s we don't completely change something or
1195s redesign something yeah you need to keep
1197s its core functionality because a player
1199s has invested time into this and reaches
1201s into this and yeah if they're trying to
1202s buy something like a staff armor that is
1205s you know pretty busted in any nerf
1207s capacity it still needs to come out and
1209s be very strong exactly still needs to be
1210s the strongest magic weapon in the game
1212s that still allows you to do nuts amount
1214s of damage it's just it's kind of almost
1216s a tuning thing more than a than a change
1218s of everything about how it works yeah
1220s the the the connectivity of the economy
1223s is uh
1224s a massive factor in this as well like
1226s the
1227s the fact that you know an item can be
1229s five billion coins and then we change it
1231s and then overnight it's now three
1233s billion coins right yeah because
1236s a a snap reaction can do just that
1240s um and then you have a lot of
1241s disgruntled players not only because
1244s the item that they had is now less but
1246s they're not worried about the the gp
1248s loss because sometimes like
1250s when they purchase something that gp's
1252s gone yeah um but then there are players
1254s who are like i literally just bought
1256s this for five billion yeah
1259s so there's there's always disgruntled
1260s players that will come out the woodwork
1262s but that's video games that's really
1263s that's that's live games
1265s um
1266s runescape's so unique
1268s um this this
1270s this constant state of
1273s runescape the fact that you know you can
1276s go to
1277s general gradle with all the gears you've
1279s you've earned over the last 10 years and
1282s you hit grad or and he's the same as he
1284s was when he first released in 2009
1286s 2008 2007 a long time ago yeah one of
1289s those
1290s and that's the crazy thing it's not like
1292s a a stat squish it's just that the
1294s player has got so much stronger
1296s um and as we release new abilities
1299s players find intricacies that we didn't
1300s even think of i have a hot take for you
1302s okay or a question i don't want to say i
1304s strongly feel this way but i think
1307s overall
1308s if you like just look at the the full
1310s scope of the game uh especially you know
1312s maybe from uh from a high level end game
1314s perspective
1315s um
1316s how do you feel about the phrase that or
1319s the idea that eofs were a mistake
1322s i disagree um
1325s there are elements i disagree with i
1327s disagree with the idea that now every
1330s special attack needs to be relevant i
1332s think that ideology needs to go
1335s um that's like saying hey my dragon long
1338s is is you know it's the spec was good
1340s back in the day so it needs to still be
1342s good now no no it doesn't it doesn't
1344s this is my own personal opinion but i'm
1347s okay with old content dying
1349s like i think we we personally have done
1351s something
1352s too much like torva right torva now
1355s breaks down into various different
1356s components it's just like
1358s let next die like at a certain point
1360s yeah it doesn't need relevancy a decade
1362s after exactly 11 years after release it
1365s it doesn't need relevancy
1367s um and i know we were very
1369s careful to to
1371s when we're designing things we're like
1372s oh but bandos might crash it's just like
1374s no this has been out for x amount of
1376s years it's fine to go eof added so much
1379s to the combat system like truly added
1381s added
1382s the fact that
1384s it is a combination of two amulets and
1388s that amulet is then stronger but then
1389s you can then put a special attack power
1391s creep power creep i think it could have
1393s been
1395s um and i
1396s i didn't design the essence of finality
1398s but i'm the dev that made it yeah um
1402s the
1403s it could have been its own amulet and
1406s then you have a choice of amulets that
1408s you would take do i want to take my eof
1410s or do i feel that i need my berserker
1413s necklace or my imminent souls
1417s necklace
1418s um
1420s but
1422s the fact that you could sort of use old
1424s spec i love using a dark bow it added a
1427s lot of fluidity
1428s obviously it's a it's a it's a cost it's
1430s a sink like if you want to put your sgb
1432s into an eof
1433s um then by hormones go for it you're
1436s losing
1437s you know however much the sgb is and
1439s it's still quite an expensive item
1441s but then you can just wear that and you
1443s can just pop that every time it's off
1445s cooldown without having to go
1447s all right switch because players would
1448s switch anyway right i mean i think it's
1450s the difference between switching to uh
1452s i mean you still need a ranged weapon
1454s exactly so it's still a switch and
1456s sometimes in a lot of cases it can be
1457s even more of a switch interesting enough
1459s there was the the original design
1462s was to have
1464s the special attacks weapon work
1467s regardless of attack style
1469s oh yeah okay there's a there's a bit of
1473s a bit of tea so
1475s if you were to store an sgb you'd be
1477s stor storing just the special attack and
1480s you would use you'd be wearing melee
1482s and you'd use your sgb and it would zoo
1485s and do melee damage
1487s but
1488s there was no way i'd be able to do that
1489s in that amount of time and that is like
1492s game breaking
1494s interestingly enough i almost feel like
1497s case by case there are certain instances
1499s where you could almost do that as like
1501s more of a switchscape reduction than
1503s anything else because for example if
1505s you've got a sarin godbow eof and you're
1507s mailing currently you gotta put on a
1509s different bow you've got your bolts with
1511s you everything else it's just you know
1513s they're
1514s there's a
1515s there's a set of things to do that that
1517s do make it a little more complicated but
1519s i also think yeah being able to debo or
1521s whatever on any style that's absolutely
1522s game breaking that would that wouldn't
1524s work you could not do that in the game
1526s there's a line and we we know where the
1529s the big line is obviously the
1531s technicalities of it um but from uh
1533s uh were difficult but from a power creep
1535s standpoint i was like hell
1537s because
1538s one of the one of the crazy things is
1540s and we see this a lot with any piece of
1542s content is we can we can devote and we
1545s can only spend so much time playing and
1546s thinking about the intricacies of how
1549s might players use this yeah of course i
1551s mean there's a realistic time crunch of
1553s you you can't spend a year thinking
1555s about this you can't and then you
1557s release it and then a hundred thousand
1559s players you have the brain power of a
1561s hundred thousand players who might pick
1563s up the uf on the first day
1564s and they're like
1566s what if i use it with a grandmother more
1568s and then i switched it to this and then
1570s and you're just like
1572s sorry you you so you like we'll see they
1574s twitch clips or videos and we'll we'll
1577s look at something and be like bandage
1579s just disappeared
1580s little bit and then they'll be like no
1581s they just killed bandos in 0.6 seconds
1584s so you'd have to go through and like
1585s they're switching and doing everything
1587s crazy and you're like
1588s fair enough it's not it's not like uh
1590s that's an old bus exactly and it's not
1593s feasible to do that every kill so it's
1597s okay with relation to the eof i think
1599s one kind of slightly less intended
1601s mechanic of it was or maybe i'm sure it
1604s was intended from a design standpoint
1606s but i'd love to hear your thoughts on
1607s sort of how this was was brought up or
1609s considered but the ability to cast a
1611s special attack with anything on the
1614s style so for example a dark bow is a
1617s two-handed weapon and you can now cast
1619s it while you are with a shield on under
1621s barricade and i think that's one of the
1623s big power creep points that allowed
1624s players to
1626s maximize their level of
1628s damage output while also mitigating
1630s damage and i think the the impact of
1632s that was very significant on a lot of
1634s you know what were considered the end
1636s game bosses at the time so whether
1637s that's a telos or like a hard mode
1639s or or anything there
1641s yeah i mean it obviously switched things
1643s up but um the the one rule set we gave
1646s was
1647s it's freedom right you're you're
1649s absorbing the power of the special
1651s attack so as long as you meet certain
1652s criteria like
1654s style matching because if you had to
1656s wear a two-hander to use a two-handed
1658s special attack
1660s the only benefit you'd really get is it
1662s scaling up exactly exactly like you're
1664s you're
1665s you're only getting the scaling but the
1666s fact that i can um be duel wielding and
1670s then all of a sudden i'm doing my sgb
1672s spec without having to worry about
1673s switching to a two-hander
1675s um is is is a nice idea um because uh
1678s it's a it's a bit more fluid that's
1680s something that got away from us over the
1682s years um is all these switches and
1685s different things and and we started to
1686s address it and say hey
1689s uh let's make things a little bit more
1690s accessible by introducing hey here's the
1693s ring a vigor passive hey here's the
1695s essence of finality you like that
1696s special attack
1697s but it's not like handed to them it's
1699s like hey yeah you're going to have to
1701s sink this item out the game that's a
1702s cost to you but now you have this in
1704s there in an amulet and you can benefit
1706s from it to the to the tune of that and
1708s sort of the you know vigor passive for
1711s example as a switch keep reduction which
1712s was i believe functionally that was the
1714s objective of it um do you i know you
1717s look at the power of all three combat
1719s styles but do you guys look at or do you
1722s look at
1723s the amount of like actions per minute
1726s required on a different combat style and
1728s say this is a lot more engaged than this
1729s for the same amount of damage um
1732s it's something we're aware of but it's
1733s not something we actively
1735s say hey
1737s you know melee is way more apm
1739s i think the thing that made the
1740s fractured staff of armadale so entirely
1743s busted is
1744s just allowing a player who does not want
1746s to do a lot of switch scape to camp the
1748s thing and still drop 350k dpm just
1751s spamming the armored battlestat spec
1753s um
1753s and i think that is one of the reasons
1756s why it's such a sought after weapon i
1758s don't think it's specifically oh end
1760s game like at the super super top end
1761s because at the very top end
1763s the this there's a decent amount of
1765s balance in the styles there are i mean
1767s the records the number of bosses the
1768s telos record is done with ranged yeah
1770s which is that blows my mind considering
1772s how much mage dominated for so many
1774s years but at the at the same time
1778s melee um
1779s the apm versus maging to compete with
1781s the fractures have armor it's probably
1784s 3x yeah and i think
1787s that's kind of i don't want to say a
1788s pain point for for a lot of players but
1790s i think from a consideration factor it's
1792s it's not so much that the fracture type
1794s of armor is broken in terms of the
1796s damage output it allows it's the ease
1798s with which it allows that damage
1800s it's more accessible damage output yeah
1802s on the on the subject of power creep on
1805s like a broader spectrum we've spoken on
1808s the idea that so long as there is more
1811s difficult stuff uh coming out um it just
1814s kind of moves the mid game and the
1815s previous end game bosses become mid-game
1817s and they become more accessible and
1819s that's generally speaking a good thing
1820s so long as there is more difficult stuff
1823s coming so you are one of the one of the
1826s leads on the zamrock boss fight yep and
1829s um
1830s so just take me through sort of how much
1832s thought has gone into
1834s allowing or creating something
1836s that is i don't want to say power creep
1838s proof but that is difficult enough that
1841s even with all the power creep of recent
1842s months and years um is going to be you
1845s know a difficult boss fighter even you
1846s could go as far as say the most
1847s difficult boss in the impossible boss
1850s fight in the game
1852s it does it does reach it reaches heights
1854s where it is impossible this one is super
1856s interesting because you know you and i
1857s have both touched upon
1859s um
1860s mainly power creep um and
1863s having rewards that work
1866s for years to come
1868s um now one of our main goals in zamarak
1871s is to sort of touch upon that let's
1873s let's test the waters
1874s um and that's why xamarin comes with an
1876s enrage system and we've we've
1879s fiddled with enraged systems with telos
1881s telus was the first one god was engine
1883s two
1884s um to have an enraged system
1886s um
1888s and then arc glacial came out and that
1889s had its own rage system uh so we looked
1892s at the two of them and we learned from
1893s them and players got to 4k art glacial
1896s really quickly
1897s um we looked back in the day to tell us
1900s um players were sort of hitting brick
1902s walls
1903s to where they were they were struggling
1905s but and correct me if i'm wrong with the
1907s release of telos 4k was never meant to
1910s be actually attainable
1912s yeah yeah there's a comment in in code
1915s um saying hey you know this cap's at 4k
1918s good luck though with a winky face okay
1920s yeah um so it wasn't ever expected that
1923s players would ever be able to get there
1924s but
1925s the
1927s the one
1928s takeaway from being a runescape
1930s developer and especially working on boss
1932s encounters and this the stuff i
1934s i say to all our new devs um like mud
1937s luma and
1938s um
1939s sponge when he sort of came along is
1942s never underestimate runescape players
1944s because you will give them a door and
1946s say hey this is how the mechanic is
1948s intended to be done
1949s and they will find every other way
1951s possible
1953s to go around
1955s under over
1956s not through that door so players will do
1960s mechanics not the way you intended they
1961s will always prove you wrong they are so
1963s clever
1965s so you need to sort of always bear that
1966s in mind and that's you know they they
1968s did achieve 4k tell us even though we
1970s internally thought it was impossible
1971s so we try and do less of even though i
1974s literally just said hey time rages this
1977s is literally impossible it is
1979s um but that's because we've lifted the
1982s bar from 4k up to 60 000. so you want it
1985s to be virtually uncapped that's that's
1987s 60 thousand is an arbitrary number that
1989s is picked
1990s no one's getting there yeah there are
1992s there are certain mechanics in the fight
1993s that scale to a point where
1995s players maximum life points literally
1997s can't handle that
1999s the players will figure out a way the
2000s main eye the main ideology behind
2003s pushing way beyond 4k as one it will get
2005s to a point where it's theoretically
2007s impossible
2008s but two
2009s it gives players a pla it gives players
2012s a platform along with the boss high
2014s scores so with the zamrak lord of chaos
2016s boss encounter
2018s vm rage obviously goes up to 60 000 um
2021s but we're giving
2023s boss high scores a go um so players who
2026s are these amazing
2029s players can group together and
2031s uh groups of two three four or five or
2034s going solo
2036s achieve a kill
2037s and they are immortalized forever on the
2040s boss high scores
2041s so we're able to then see how far
2044s players can really take it get a good
2046s understanding of what points are they
2048s starting to fall off at and us
2050s internally that that gives us a
2053s that's the power level
2055s that players start to falter at that's
2057s the
2058s the average of the high scores and rage
2061s so that's maybe where we can aim some
2062s future content
2064s where we want to go hey
2066s we need something mega mega hard so we
2068s have a benchmark to sort of go up
2070s against
2071s um but it's also going to be amazing to
2072s really see
2074s how far some of our players can take it
2076s we have incredibly talented people who
2078s know the combat system
2080s way better than we do
2082s and i expect to see them sort of at the
2084s top of the high scores but also
2086s it's nice for new names to come into the
2089s fold new
2090s legends to be born
2092s um
2094s the fact that i can go onto the the
2095s website the runescape's high scores
2097s click refresh and i'm like
2099s who's billy041272
2103s and i mean i think personally that's the
2105s that's one of the things with the zem
2106s rock fight that i mean i've been playing
2108s it all week pre-release but one of the
2110s things i'm most excited for is exactly
2112s what you said because in my head i have
2114s an idea of who the top dramas in the
2115s game are and i know kind of where i fit
2117s in you know an echelon below that and
2119s whatever else but the idea that is baked
2122s into the game it is a part of the game
2124s now to be able to see these new players
2125s because there's a real chance there are
2127s some people that have never
2129s they're not on broadcasted
2130s pdm clan but they are absolutely
2132s phenomenal and uh just to see those
2134s names and get to hear those stories i
2136s think it's going to be fascinating as
2137s well even if you're not engaging with
2138s the boss to be able to
2141s follow it and watch it and and to me it
2143s sort of recreates a similar
2145s a similar feeling to seasonals in i
2147s believe 2017 where like that was where
2150s couchy really put himself on the map as
2152s i am the best runescape player yeah he
2154s had players like sadden who you know no
2157s one had really heard of until
2158s players starting to push
2160s tell us and hopefully with this and
2162s groups and
2163s and different things we're going to
2165s bring a lot of players into the
2166s limelight but these are the players who
2168s have really learned how to use the power
2170s we've introduced to them over the years
2173s gives them that platform and
2175s [Music]
2177s allows us again as i said to benchmark
2179s and really figure out where are we at
2182s what's next what's to come
2185s what style dominates what things do we
2188s need to tweak change um
2190s and yeah i think it's gonna be probably
2193s one of the most successful bosses we've
2195s ever done just because of longevity and
2197s in years to come when we release
2199s let's say a new codex players might be
2202s able to finally
2204s push past the
2206s the mechanic that or the mechanic with x
2208s and rage that's been blocking them for x
2210s amount of years and then we can see how
2212s far they can even push it further yeah
2214s it's almost i mean i don't wanna say
2215s it's power creep proof but because it
2218s goes uncapped fairly infinitely i think
2220s you get to a point where
2223s yeah any any new release that gives you
2225s power will still be relevant at that
2226s boss and whether it's the top people
2228s getting an extra five in rage or it's
2231s you know someone who's stuck at 80 in
2232s rage getting up to 100 i think there's a
2234s there's a really really good longevity
2236s relevancy there that uh i don't think
2238s you see in a lot of other bosses that's
2240s the thing like like this new reward
2242s might only be able to get them to eke
2244s out an extra 10 to their high school
2247s best
2248s but that's an extra 10 that they didn't
2249s have beforehand so
2251s there you go and they'll be in the top
2252s spot
2254s with relation to making a boss that is
2256s you know potentially not power creep
2257s proof but i mean you use the term
2258s impossible at a certain level of
2260s difficulty i think with the archbase or
2262s there's a lot of you know playing around
2264s with certain mechanics that scale up
2265s within rage and certain ones that don't
2267s and and figuring that out but how do you
2270s manage defensive abilities because of
2273s how ridiculously strong they are
2275s because to me they're in a weird spot
2277s most players don't use them but as soon
2279s as you know how to use them you can now
2281s know food every single boss in the game
2283s yeah no defenses um they're my personal
2286s biggest gripe with the game
2288s um they've been too strong from the
2290s get-go
2292s if we want to do something about them
2295s then it's the same formula for every
2297s single boss um
2299s a attack comes out a player will do
2301s disruption shield and completely nullify
2303s that a attack comes out a player will
2305s use resonance and they will fully heal
2308s and mitigate that entire the entirety of
2311s the damage a
2312s big set of attacks comes out a player
2314s will just pop on barricade and that's it
2317s they've got 18 seconds of invincibility
2319s right
2321s so
2323s we have to start thinking about this
2325s they've been too strong since to eoc
2328s launch
2329s it's the same
2330s formula that the players take to every
2333s boss so we need to start challenging
2334s that we need to start testing that
2336s um and we need to break the
2339s of of
2340s players rotations and and survivability
2343s and boss fights so
2345s where
2346s zamarak
2347s now starts to push damage through that
2350s um he also layers his own
2352s you know taste taste
2354s his own um flavor on top to even further
2359s push push through that so players that
2361s have just been doing the same thing for
2363s x amount of years will now have to come
2366s up with ideas and methodologies to
2370s break the cycle break the mold and
2372s figure out how to push these higher
2373s ranges because they're going to be
2375s tested
2376s so you know with all that in mind and
2379s everything we've discussed powerful
2380s rewards and and bosses that
2383s now infinitely scale
2385s i think the majority of our future
2388s bosses will have this sort of experience
2390s where
2391s they get an elder mode or an enrage mode
2394s that has a
2395s supreme hard difficulty whether that
2398s uses the enrage system so it goes
2400s infinite
2401s and players hit a brick wall and they
2403s have high scores
2404s um
2406s i think that's where we're headed
2407s in terms of
2409s flavor of the year flavor of the month
2411s however you want to call it in terms of
2412s combat styles is
2414s one will always be dominant
2416s one will always be the worst not
2418s necessarily the worst but it will be the
2420s weakest and one will always sit in the
2421s middle that's how it will always be i
2424s don't think
2425s or i don't believe that we'll ever
2428s actually aim to say hey
2431s we want to get these to a point where
2432s they're all on on a level playing field
2435s the way we do design and the way
2437s we listen to our community is
2441s we'll look
2442s we'll listen we'll react
2444s and that's the the magic of it like
2447s players like hey
2448s this style doesn't have this threshold
2451s stun is it coming for the next
2454s boss is it coming from the next layer
2455s creatures this is this would really help
2457s us and we can listen to that and go
2460s you know what
2461s they're they're right in that regard so
2465s they'll suggest ideas and we'll listen
2468s to them it's not a
2470s oh we think this will be cool but we
2472s don't know how it's going to fit in and
2473s we'll just release it we'll hear what
2474s they have to say
2476s we'll react and then
2478s it's very much yeah it's it's out in the
2480s open it's very i mean it's not reactive
2482s but it's it's very calculated based on
2485s player feedback
2486s how players collaboratives are really
2487s gonna put it with regard to
2490s yeah you see what the pain points are
2491s the things that people aren't happy with
2493s and then it's just a situation of does
2494s this actually make sense can we do this
2496s should we do this and then
2498s if you know it checks all those boxes
2499s then it probably happens or doesn't mean
2500s there's a good chance there but there's
2501s still so much room for us to
2504s to do what we did with things like the
2506s fracture staff of armadale where we're
2507s like hey this is a cool idea to us
2510s we want to start playing with crit more
2512s or we want to
2514s investigate or or trial or experiment
2518s with new
2519s niches of the combat system and say hey
2523s we're now going to push for the
2524s next maybe a year or so and just see
2526s what happens because at the end of the
2527s day
2529s we're the ones making the game yeah um
2531s we can push and pull and and change
2533s things in any any direction whether
2535s that's going back and and completely
2538s changing the identity of magic or
2540s changing the identity of range we have
2542s that power but
2543s we know that players get comfortable
2545s with um
2546s certain styles and we don't want to
2547s disrupt that but we also want to take
2549s the game forward take it further so we
2551s we build on the foundation we have
2554s and we start tangenting and pulling in
2556s in different directions and
2558s again flavor of the year flavor of the
2560s month however however you want to see it
2562s um one style will always dominate um
2565s and players will cry out for the lowest
2567s style to to have its time in the sun
2570s and the one thing we can look back on
2572s and know that
2573s that that style will one day
2575s sit in the throne um and then other
2579s players looking at the woodwork yeah i
2580s want mage to be good again um but it's
2583s part of uh game design it's part of
2585s balancing a a sandbox like runescape so
2588s it's magical but it's difficult yeah of
2590s course it's
2591s extremely daunting so with all that in
2593s mind and as a high level player yourself
2597s what do you think about the the future
2598s of infinitely skating bosses
2601s boss high scores etc
2603s i think the high level community for a
2605s long time has wanted more content like
2608s that where they can actually push
2609s themselves and it feels like
2611s an opportunity for them to you know work
2613s their way through bosses and take them
2615s to to higher levels
2617s i think it's fantastic because you're
2618s not alienating other players you're not
2620s alienating you know newer or less
2622s experienced people but at the same time
2624s you are granting an extra challenge to
2626s those endgame people and i think so long
2628s as they're scaled and balanced in a way
2630s that it is somewhat rewarding to
2632s challenge yourself and take yourself to
2634s greater heights i think a lot of
2636s high-level players will be very excited
2637s to hear that and i think it's
2638s aspirational content for for newer less
2641s experienced players as well which is
2642s extremely important i think something
2644s that for me personally i feel has been
2646s missing from the game for for a very
2648s long time
2654s so with relation to you know you asking
2656s me how i feel moving forward if you're
2658s trending in the direction of skilled
2660s bosses
2663s i couldn't tell if he was doing a battle
2664s for the show
2666s okay i'm actually i'm actually going to
2668s stitch that together in post right
2671s so long as those
2675s at least it happened at the end
2678s ah right ready
2682s he just gave me a look and it just
2685s i'm sitting there like
2687s so long as those i'm like not looking at
2689s you
2698s i think