9 months ago - /u/Shaunyowns - Direct link

Hey all,

I originally wrote this as a comment on Hero Pass as a whole, I just want to reiterate right off the bat, I think Hero Pass needs more refinement most of that if not all of the feedback I'd suggest has been covered by people here and elsewhere.

However... I wanted to use this post to talk about historical conversations from my memory around updates that have caused a lot of negativity and what we did at Jagex at the time to help with this.

*Please note: My thoughts, will, of course may not apply to Jagex as of today, it has been four years since I've left, but I feel like there's an awesome amount of engagement that still takes place here between Jmods and players.\*

Historical

I wanted to bring some historical context to some events from my time in CM on RuneScape that stand out (from a negativity standpoint), see below for each and a summary of them and how players reacted to it at the time.

---

Sliske's Endgame... the Maze

When Sliske's Endgame released at the end of 2016 it was the culmination of that Sliske Quest Series, at the time I'd actually joined the Dukes (the development team working on it) to assist with Cutscenes while still doing my CM work, I'd often see ex-Mod Raven stay behind past working hours just to add flavour and finishing touches he wanted to make that experience that much more enjoyable and worthy of the occasion.

This release was during a time that there was no Completionist Cape amnesty so the moment the Quest went live, it'd remove your Comp Cape (used at that time for its Best in Slot combat stats) so players who wanted that back wanted to rush through it.

The launch had initial Maze hiccups, however these precious few hours those specific players weren't able to get a Cape meant that a small vocal group of players would literally wish harm upon Mod Raven when they found out the Maze system was his idea.

It was incredibly demotivating to see how much it impacted him, the reality is, these players would be fixed up within the day and would be able to grab the Comp Cape back.

From my experience working with developers, while they love/appreciate seeing praise, they will always focus on what players perceive to be negative and any incredibly negative posts will really affect the morale.

---

Bounty Hunter Rework

A rather sad and similar theme here, ex-Mod Pi was working on the Bounty Hunter rework with the idea to re-incentivize the game mode while adding new reward methods for the PvP'ers in the Community.

Within the launch we saw players who wanted to rush for the rewards and would feel impeded and thus use that to reflective vitriol towards Pi which became very aggressive, and yes sadly resulted in more death threats.

You can read a comment I made on this *7* years ago here.

---

RunePass

Back in July of 2018, we launched something at the time called "RunePass", the reception/reaction is similar to the Hero Pass reaction I see today.

It should be noted, that through all of the negativity back in 2018, we did not have an official response for a week (I believe we discussed it on the RS stream the week after).

We absolutely bore a lot of hate and comments that were excessively aggressive, any decisions made past the RunePass release were shaped by daily reports across Social as well as in-game, which were then delivered to specific stakeholders on top of any other data gathered by other teams (similar to what we're likely seeing with Hero Pass right now).

---

So... if you've made it this far, first of all thank you! Historical context is important here (IMO).

I cannot stress this enough, if you want to be heard, do it in a constructive manner, while all feedback is digested, the wrong message on the wrong day can significantly impact a Jagex Mod, I sadly it saw it too much while I was there.

Updates like Hero Pass, are ones that are normally prepared a fair amount in advance, which means if there's such a kickback to it (like this one), then Jagex will need to digest all of the data in-game, plus sentiment and reports that the CM team are no doubt providing in an awesome manner before making significant changes, which I imagine they will communicate to you ahead of time.

I said it at the start of the post but I feel like there's still a lot of engagement that happens between Jagex and its players here on r/RuneScape which is a precious thing to have. But please be considerate of the staff (this includes direct attacks/witchhunting), because you're never fully aware of all the decisions that lead to things like this.

From my time at Jagex, the developers were always fantastic with how I presented player feedback to them, and they are always reading because they're just as passionate as you. The examples above are just some that stand out to me and quite frankly have shaped my entire experience of how I approach games/my job just because of how significant they are to me.

Anyway... just my two cents. I don't play anywhere near as much nowadays, but I always keep one eye on here/the game because it does mean a lot to me, and I wanted to post this in the hope it somewhat helps Jagex + yourself in providing the best kind of feedback to move forward.

Happy to have discussions on this if you have any questions also :)

External link →
9 months ago - /u/Shaunyowns - Direct link

Hey all,

I originally wrote this as a comment on Hero Pass as a whole, I just want to reiterate right off the bat, I think Hero Pass needs more refinement most of that if not all of the feedback I'd suggest has been covered by people here and elsewhere.

However... I wanted to use this post to talk about historical conversations from my memory around updates that have caused a lot of negativity and what we did at Jagex at the time to help with this.

*Please note: My thoughts, will, of course may not apply to Jagex as of today, it has been four years since I've left, but I feel like there's an awesome amount of engagement that still takes place here between Jmods and players.\*

Historical

I wanted to bring some historical context to some events from my time in CM on RuneScape that stand out (from a negativity standpoint), see below for each and a summary of them and how players reacted to it at the time.

---

Sliske's Endgame... the Maze

When Sliske's Endgame released at the end of 2016 it was the culmination of that Sliske Quest Series, at the time I'd actually joined the Dukes (the development team working on it) to assist with Cutscenes while still doing my CM work, I'd often see ex-Mod Raven stay behind past working hours just to add flavour and finishing touches he wanted to make that experience that much more enjoyable and worthy of the occasion.

This release was during a time that there was no Completionist Cape amnesty so the moment the Quest went live, it'd remove your Comp Cape (used at that time for its Best in Slot combat stats) so players who wanted that back wanted to rush through it.

The launch had initial Maze hiccups, however these precious few hours those specific players weren't able to get a Cape meant that a small vocal group of players would literally wish harm upon Mod Raven when they found out the Maze system was his idea.

It was incredibly demotivating to see how much it impacted him, the reality is, these players would be fixed up within the day and would be able to grab the Comp Cape back.

From my experience working with developers, while they love/appreciate seeing praise, they will always focus on what players perceive to be negative and any incredibly negative posts will really affect the morale.

---

Bounty Hunter Rework

A rather sad and similar theme here, ex-Mod Pi was working on the Bounty Hunter rework with the idea to re-incentivize the game mode while adding new reward methods for the PvP'ers in the Community.

Within the launch we saw players who wanted to rush for the rewards and would feel impeded and thus use that to reflective vitriol towards Pi which became very aggressive, and yes sadly resulted in more death threats.

You can read a comment I made on this *7* years ago here.

---

RunePass

Back in July of 2018, we launched something at the time called "RunePass", the reception/reaction is similar to the Hero Pass reaction I see today.

It should be noted, that through all of the negativity back in 2018, we did not have an official response for a week (I believe we discussed it on the RS stream the week after).

We absolutely bore a lot of hate and comments that were excessively aggressive, any decisions made past the RunePass release were shaped by daily reports across Social as well as in-game, which were then delivered to specific stakeholders on top of any other data gathered by other teams (similar to what we're likely seeing with Hero Pass right now).

---

So... if you've made it this far, first of all thank you! Historical context is important here (IMO).

I cannot stress this enough, if you want to be heard, do it in a constructive manner, while all feedback is digested, the wrong message on the wrong day can significantly impact a Jagex Mod, I sadly it saw it too much while I was there.

Updates like Hero Pass, are ones that are normally prepared a fair amount in advance, which means if there's such a kickback to it (like this one), then Jagex will need to digest all of the data in-game, plus sentiment and reports that the CM team are no doubt providing in an awesome manner before making significant changes, which I imagine they will communicate to you ahead of time.

I said it at the start of the post but I feel like there's still a lot of engagement that happens between Jagex and its players here on r/RuneScape which is a precious thing to have. But please be considerate of the staff (this includes direct attacks/witchhunting), because you're never fully aware of all the decisions that lead to things like this.

From my time at Jagex, the developers were always fantastic with how I presented player feedback to them, and they are always reading because they're just as passionate as you. The examples above are just some that stand out to me and quite frankly have shaped my entire experience of how I approach games/my job just because of how significant they are to me.

Anyway... just my two cents. I don't play anywhere near as much nowadays, but I always keep one eye on here/the game because it does mean a lot to me, and I wanted to post this in the hope it somewhat helps Jagex + yourself in providing the best kind of feedback to move forward.

Happy to have discussions on this if you have any questions also :)

External link →
9 months ago - /u/Shaunyowns - Direct link

Originally posted by pacquan

any decisions made past the RunePass release were shaped by daily reports across Social as well as in-game, which were then delivered to specific stakeholders on top of any other data gathered by other teams

All our feedback comes on deaf ears because it is up to the stakeholders to make the decision. They have others create a portfolio for them to analyze instead of them actively following the process. The stakeholders see us as numbers and dollar signs, why would they care about what we have to say?

I know the premise of the post is to let us know solutions will be implemented after the bureaucracy, but we've been doing this song and dance for 10 years. This isn't a healthy dynamic for the staff or the players. The entire process needs to change.

Some stuff *is* actioned, I'm not going to say it all is for sure, but some of it is, I don't disagree with your comments on this either for what its worth.

The response will be interesting to see for sure!

9 months ago - /u/Shaunyowns - Direct link

Originally posted by errantgamer

Why are you simping for a company you quit?

"if you want to be heard, do it in a constructive manner"

How about go away? People are allowed to be pissed off at literal shit rammed down their throats.

You were a good CM shauny but to think you have any say over the game now is facile

I wouldn't say this is "simping", you can be annoyed but there's a difference between being annoyed and then directing insult to people *directly*.

It isn't a case of "having a say", like I said in the post, historical context is important.

9 months ago - /u/Shaunyowns - Direct link

Originally posted by errantgamer

Nobody is making personal attacks against staff. If there are, they are the outlier.

I'm sick of "People are attacking us directly" as a blanket excuse for utter crap. 99% of people don't.

I saw the initial edit of this post where you said "no one was directly attacking staff" but yeah, it is an extreme outlier, it always is.

I'm not using the direct attack as an excuse, but it is a morale breaker, that's why I wanted to provided the examples above in my main post.

99% of people may not, but it's sadly all about what appears to be the most visible, I spoke about that above also, you always try to find the most critical post.

9 months ago - /u/Shaunyowns - Direct link

Originally posted by NoPomegranate7508

we have given constructive feedback for years and it always falls on deaf ears and then things get worse. now people are understandably fed up and suddenly jagex are victims? i dont condone targetting jmods but asking for a removal of this content is reasonable given how horrible all of it is and it has been pointed out repeatedly. but they dont wanna hear any of it. instead of crying about mean comments they should finally fix their shit and listen to countless non offensive comments.

My post isn't to represent Jagex's view, but more to hammer home the point that feedback like yours is still useful (specifically as it relates to if you want the content gone, etc).

But yeah, will be interesting to see what their next step is.

9 months ago - /u/Shaunyowns - Direct link

Originally posted by Sakirth

Thanks for making this post Shauny, it's a good one.

Specific criticisms about HP aside, I think broadly people are just afraid what this new direction means for the future of the game. In terms of MTX it is always two steps forward one step back which means we the players can never win on this topic. In the end the train of ever increasing monitisation of a game lots of us grew up with keeps chugging along.

I totally agree personal attacks on individual developers is not done. At the same time, I and many of us that provide actionable feedback have no control over what others do. At best we can call it out when we see it. And this topic is so important to many of us that we can't allow the conversation to be detracted by a couple of rotten apples.

I have always said the Runescape developers are some of the most passionate and approachable people in game development and you can tell by the amount of love they pour into the game every update.

I love them to bits and generally whenever an oopsie whoopsie is made they'll be fast to communicate about it being on their radar and what they're going to do about it. The Necromancy post-update posts on Fridays are a good example of that.

The issue is that not only does MTX feel detached from the game in many ways, the MTX team also suffers from this. There is barely any transparency, they don't make public statements. Instead they'll have someone like Jack do that IF the outrage is significant enough.

We don't want to talk to the individual firemen putting out the forest fire, we want the city council to make a statement on how they'll prevent future fires. And preferably in a believable way because the track record on that is well...

Awesome reply :)

9 months ago - /u/Shaunyowns - Direct link

Originally posted by Dogtag

So Hooli just happening to peace out on holiday this week is all inkeeping with the communication strategy?

I've had my boss take holiday (which they planned way ahead of time) during a time of negative updates, I'm not sure it's fair for us to say that Hooli's taken the holiday on purpose to get away from this, he'll have outlined tasks he expects from the team and trusts them in his stead (IMO).

9 months ago - /u/Shaunyowns - Direct link

Originally posted by SeaProgram2836

+4 hero points!

I've got a long way to go to level up just a tier then... :D

9 months ago - /u/Shaunyowns - Direct link

Originally posted by Macattack088

Thanks for the insights, Shauny! You are missed!

Just for perspective, were there any devs internally pushing back against RunePass initially? It just seems odd and disconnected that the devs seem "surprised" there is this negative sentiment with this release. I would think one Jmod who actively plays would at least say something, right?

Good question! I have to give a rather ignorant answer here, as that particular update was worked on by a team I didn't work directly with so I was a little out of the loop to the full mechanics (albeit from the occasional presentation of stuff during Dev Q&As)

At that point I wouldn't go around asking the staff what they thought of it, I'd want to focus on highlighting the key issues and reporting that accordingly so we can take the right steps at that time.

9 months ago - /u/Shaunyowns - Direct link

Originally posted by Stuckinfemalecloset

Shauny!!! Glad to see you again!

One of the things with MTX updates that he’s posted is the idea that the shareholders are in control/make the decisions on all these things. So are you able to talk about how much involvement they have with things like this? Are devs just told to make X number of promo’s/sales and they choose how, and is feedback/changes made with them in mind?

Hey! KPIs/Goals I wouldn't have visibility on in that sense, that's all aligned with the production teams, etc.

In my case, it'd be all about the coverage of the update (Sentiment tracking, etc). Apologies for the lack of a descriptive answer here!

9 months ago - /u/Shaunyowns - Direct link

Originally posted by Jewelers_Loupe

He needs to disclose if he signed a NDAA as well. /u/shaunyowns he is especially not directly addressing the Hero Pass with his thoughts, but more of a jump around the topic.

Hmm? Im not sure what an NDAA is but my NDA with Jagex more or less stays in place for any unannounced stuff (as per usual with game companies, etc)

I thought I made it clear on my first paragraph but in its current state I don’t think Hero Pass hits the mark whatsoever, the Ironman exclusion is a major miss and right now it just doesn’t feel rewarding for the time invested whatsoever (plus the Marketing of “major update” didn’t quite fit the expectations set by players)

As I mentioned I just wanted the post to touch on examples of when negative updates can come out but staff get directly targeted as a result is all 😁