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| 0s | combat was removed from the completion |
|---|---|
| 3s | escape reaper title was you know removed |
| 5s | from from the requirements which is to |
| 6s | get one kill at every boss in the game |
| 8s | uh just to ask you like full-on blanket |
| 11s | why did that happen and how do you feel |
| 13s | about that happening |
| 20s | hello and welcome back to jage's hq i am |
| 23s | here with mod jack and today we are |
| 25s | going to be talking about design |
| 27s | philosophy of requirements requirements |
| 29s | are a fairly contentious thing i think |
| 31s | everything that is released into the |
| 32s | game has a certain subset of |
| 34s | requirements things that you likely have |
| 36s | to do before you can engage with that |
| 38s | content with relation to that i wanted |
| 40s | to ask you some questions about some of |
| 42s | the recent quests so the city of |
| 44s | centesyn i think is one that you know |
| 46s | has some very very strong rewards and i |
| 48s | know in the community a number of |
| 49s | players were unsure as to the |
| 52s | requirements with regard to them being |
| 53s | probably a little bit on the lower end |
| 55s | for an end game player the the |
| 58s | requirements for the quest and the |
| 59s | rewards for the quest aren't |
| 61s | super tight together like higher higher |
| 63s | requirements does justify higher rewards |
| 66s | but i wouldn't say that lower |
| 67s | requirements necessarily requires lower |
| 70s | rewards if that makes sense the obvious |
| 72s | counter example would be like um you |
| 74s | know the the |
| 75s | surgeon ring from broken home was best |
| 77s | installed for quite a while and it was |
| 79s | inappropriate that that came from a |
| 80s | novice quest i would say i didn't i |
| 81s | don't think i don't think a novice no |
| 83s | requirements quest should be rewarding a |
| 84s | best in swap pvm item okay but but in in |
| 87s | terms of sort of participating in the |
| 89s | storyline you know you've had to |
| 90s | complete it's not like substances and |
| 91s | have no requirements it required you to |
| 93s | have completed |
| 94s | the storyline up until that point if |
| 96s | you're following along with the |
| 97s | storyline |
| 99s | i don't think the quests in the |
| 101s | storyline should have to be extremely |
| 103s | high level |
| 104s | very exclusive content in order to |
| 106s | provide good rewards |
| 108s | whether whether the balance of any |
| 110s | individual would you could argue like |
| 111s | well maybe it's a bit too good maybe the |
| 112s | requirements are a little bit too low |
| 113s | but as a general philosophy i wouldn't |
| 115s | say that |
| 116s | like moderate requirements means bad |
| 118s | reward does that make sense okay yeah so |
| 120s | just conceptually a you know more |
| 122s | mid-level quest can still reward things |
| 124s | that are very good but not if it's at |
| 126s | the extent of broken home giving you a |
| 127s | best-in-slot item yeah i think i mean |
| 130s | like we're always experimenting we're |
| 131s | always trying to find a new balance for |
| 133s | it um i think there's probably more that |
| 135s | we could do with |
| 138s | the quest is a component of a larger |
| 140s | reward like we can see that with the um |
| 142s | with the pontifex ring |
| 144s | yes that that's expanded upon ultimately |
| 146s | that you end up with is quite good but |
| 148s | if to get to unlock all of these |
| 149s | features you have to do quite a lot not |
| 150s | just complete a few quests so that that |
| 152s | works well in the sense that it is |
| 153s | technically a quest reward |
| 155s | but you have to have done the pvm |
| 157s | content as well so what as you said you |
| 159s | don't have to bvm it right but it is ppm |
| 160s | yes you have to have done some other |
| 162s | content |
| 163s | to get that final reward and complete |
| 165s | the question i think that's in a good |
| 166s | place okay um and it happened that there |
| 169s | wasn't an appropriate piece of content |
| 170s | around the launch of citizen system to |
| 172s | tie that sort of thing too but the the |
| 174s | integration of quest rewards into the |
| 176s | game a little bit better i think works |
| 178s | quite well especially now that we have |
| 179s | this |
| 180s | the storyline includes non-quest content |
| 182s | which didn't really used to be the case |
| 183s | prior to a couple of years ago |
| 185s | so there'd be there was sort of no |
| 186s | association between you know the boss |
| 188s | that was coming out and the quest that |
| 190s | was coming out they didn't really have |
| 190s | anything to do with each other so it |
| 191s | would feel a bit weird if the quest |
| 194s | required you to kill the boss or require |
| 196s | you to collect a certain number of drops |
| 197s | from the boss in order to unlock its |
| 198s | full power that would feel a bit strange |
| 199s | but now it feels very natural because |
| 201s | the two are quite closely associated |
| 202s | yeah i think it's almost a player choice |
| 204s | thing as well where it gives you the |
| 206s | option to upgrade it and get something |
| 208s | really strong and it also gives you guys |
| 209s | the opportunity to put out something |
| 210s | that is actually quite useful on a quest |
| 213s | that doesn't have the highest |
| 214s | requirements yep uh that being said |
| 216s | there are a couple kind of specific |
| 217s | requirements for some of these quests |
| 219s | that uh i wanted to bring up as i |
| 221s | personally think they're you know i |
| 223s | don't say head scratchers necessarily |
| 225s | but one of the primary rewards for the |
| 227s | city of sentence and quest it's upgrades |
| 229s | to |
| 230s | a series of new spells in the ancient |
| 232s | spellbook |
| 233s | and it doesn't require as a treasure it |
| 234s | requires you to start desert treasure |
| 236s | yeah but not to complete it and that to |
| 238s | me stuck out as like a strange |
| 240s | requirement point where there had to |
| 242s | have been some kind of thinking behind |
| 244s | that and i would i would love to be kind |
| 246s | of taken through that i mean the general |
| 247s | philosophy and i want to say general |
| 249s | philosophy rather than rule |
| 252s | is that there was a hard there was a |
| 254s | hard requirement break |
| 256s | with i mean with missing presumed death |
| 258s | now actually |
| 260s | like it's it's confusing because the new |
| 262s | storyline starts with the world wakes |
| 263s | but the world base is actually quite a |
| 264s | high level quest and the missing |
| 265s | presumed death is a very low level quest |
| 268s | if we were going to go back and |
| 269s | restructure it narratively then missing |
| 271s | presumed death would require the world |
| 272s | wakes but then a novice quest requires a |
| 275s | high level quest so it's a bit of an odd |
| 277s | structure |
| 278s | but with that hard breaking requirements |
| 280s | essentially anything before that point |
| 281s | is kind of history and then we have the |
| 283s | six age storyline going forward from |
| 285s | missing presumed death so broadly |
| 287s | speaking we wouldn't expect a modern |
| 289s | quest by which i mean anything post |
| 291s | misinformed death to require something |
| 294s | from before that point as a general |
| 296s | policy that doesn't mean that we |
| 298s | wouldn't ever do that and obviously it |
| 300s | gets really muddled when we talk about |
| 302s | like some of the reworks |
| 303s | so like is um diamond in the rough |
| 306s | an old quest |
| 307s | yeah it's it's a bit it's a bit of a |
| 308s | it's not really clear where |
| 310s | that falls and and in any case like |
| 313s | if there was a compelling reason to |
| 314s | break that rule |
| 316s | then we would |
| 317s | in the case of desert treasure um |
| 320s | i can |
| 321s | i wouldn't i don't think i would ever |
| 322s | have locked the quest behind desert |
| 324s | treasure i can see an argument for |
| 326s | locking the reward behind as a treasure |
| 327s | and that's something that we don't do |
| 329s | that often |
| 330s | well i mean it effectively is because |
| 332s | it's on the spellbook that you don't |
| 333s | unlock without complete we could have we |
| 336s | could have said |
| 338s | you have to have completed desert |
| 339s | treasury in order to use this |
| 341s | um and that to me is slightly separate |
| 343s | from the from the the quest itself |
| 346s | um |
| 347s | i guess it's easier to understand if |
| 349s | it's just put on the on the requirements |
| 350s | list i mean the example here is just the |
| 352s | tension that we always have here is |
| 354s | as i'm sure everybody does like i would |
| 356s | consider my position to be the sort of |
| 357s | moderate compromised position because on |
| 358s | the one hand i've got a sort of i've got |
| 360s | a a business objective to get as many |
| 363s | people into as much content as possible |
| 364s | all the time so there's always a push to |
| 367s | sort of |
| 369s | i think i think so i don't want to |
| 370s | oversimplify but i think it is just a |
| 371s | push to lower requirements just let's |
| 373s | make sure all of our content is as |
| 374s | accessible as possible because then more |
| 376s | people can play it |
| 377s | um and on the other hand we have a |
| 379s | fairly hardcore player base who's who |
| 382s | they want |
| 383s | the way i think about it i think in a |
| 385s | positive sense is they want their past |
| 387s | efforts to be rewarded they want to feel |
| 389s | like the investment and the work that |
| 390s | they put into their account is being um |
| 394s | upheld |
| 394s | yeah it's being it's being recognized by |
| 397s | content which is exclusive for that |
| 399s | group of players so then what we have is |
| 400s | like a tension between those two |
| 402s | perspectives and the i think it's easy |
| 404s | to be cynical about the business |
| 405s | perspective but it's not just the |
| 406s | business perspective it's also the the |
| 408s | returning player perspective the new |
| 410s | player perspective |
| 411s | the the i want to get in and do things |
| 413s | sort of you want to give access to |
| 415s | content to not just in-game hardcore |
| 417s | super exhibited players because it's the |
| 419s | best content that's coming out it's |
| 420s | recent it's fresh and you want to make |
| 422s | it accessible beyond just a business |
| 424s | thing but there's a but there's a but |
| 426s | there's a there's a compromise to reach |
| 427s | between those two positions we don't |
| 428s | just require everything for everything |
| 430s | like that so there is a player |
| 431s | perspective that every dungeon should be |
| 433s | quest locked every quest should be quest |
| 434s | locked like everything should be quest |
| 436s | locked going all the way back to you |
| 438s | know cook's assistant and |
| 440s | the game itself is a kind of you know |
| 443s | ever-increasing tower of inaccessibility |
| 445s | and |
| 446s | i don't think that |
| 448s | that extreme way of doing it just isn't |
| 450s | realistic from the point of view of |
| 451s | providing content for the game on the |
| 453s | other hand everything having no |
| 455s | requirements at all also i don't think |
| 457s | is that's not the right way to build the |
| 458s | game because it doesn't reward |
| 460s | players investment right like players |
| 462s | will have something to work towards they |
| 463s | want something to unlock um i i think my |
| 467s | personal take would be that we've skewed |
| 468s | a little low recently but it's hard to |
| 472s | it's hard to push up do you have any |
| 474s | like specific examples that you feel |
| 476s | like were |
| 477s | lower than they could have been or |
| 478s | should have been in your opinion whether |
| 480s | that's the extinction cluster the one |
| 482s | that really stands out to me i mean i |
| 483s | think i tend to think about quests |
| 484s | rather than skill requirements although |
| 486s | like broadly speaking i think we could |
| 488s | probably put a bit a few more skill |
| 490s | requirements on quests but it's it's |
| 491s | interesting our kind of our design |
| 493s | philosophy on that has changed it used |
| 495s | to be sorry it's not intentionally |
| 497s | changed it just sort of drifted over |
| 498s | time it used to be that skill |
| 500s | requirements for quests were very |
| 502s | um like they emerged from the quest |
| 504s | design themselves it was like will this |
| 505s | quest requires you to i mean like the |
| 507s | heroes quest you have to mine the rocks |
| 509s | yeah exactly so it has a mining |
| 510s | requirement on it and actually the |
| 511s | inclusion of skilling moments in quests |
| 514s | i'd say has sort of drifted down no it's |
| 515s | not an intentional philosophy or |
| 516s | strategy on our part it just there's |
| 518s | been way more emphasis on stories and |
| 520s | characters and going through the world |
| 521s | gate to strange places and and a lot |
| 524s | lower emphasis on on on just skilling |
| 526s | within the world so skill requirements |
| 528s | haven't naturally emerged from the quest |
| 530s | design so sometimes so for a while we |
| 532s | were sort of artificially putting like |
| 534s | of this quest just requires divination |
| 535s | 90. why oh well not 90b |
| 537s | it's an endgame question yeah |
| 539s | it's a high-level quest so it has that |
| 541s | and there was some negative feedback |
| 542s | from players of like well why do i and |
| 544s | it's not it's not especially strong |
| 545s | feedback but some negative feedback |
| 546s | along the lines of you know requirements |
| 548s | should exist for a reason why is this |
| 549s | even here |
| 551s | so we started cutting requirements that |
| 552s | didn't make sense and then we ended up |
| 553s | drifting into well actually |
| 555s | quests don't require that many skills |
| 558s | how do you feel about the quests that |
| 560s | have a set of requirements to complete |
| 562s | the quest and then a suggested list of |
| 565s | you know for the full story canonically |
| 567s | these are also really good quests to do |
| 569s | if you want full comprehension |
| 570s | understanding so an example of that |
| 572s | would be um like the world wakes is a |
| 574s | perfect example because that is a super |
| 575s | high level end game quest you only |
| 578s | unlock a specific reward if you've |
| 579s | completed all the subquests but the bulk |
| 582s | um you know rewards story quest itself |
| 584s | experience rewards are basically locked |
| 586s | behind nothing |
| 588s | that's it's tricky |
| 590s | sorry so there's there's two slightly |
| 591s | separate questions there one is one is |
| 593s | the story |
| 595s | and how recommended quests play into the |
| 596s | story and the other is um |
| 599s | the rewards and how the recommendations |
| 600s | play awards yeah even going a little |
| 603s | broader than that yeah conceptually how |
| 605s | do you feel about supplying two |
| 607s | different sets of wrecks the actual |
| 609s | requirements and then these are |
| 611s | suggested because it's been done i don't |
| 613s | see terribly often but there are |
| 614s | probably a half dozen quests that have |
| 617s | sort of this is a requirement and i know |
| 619s | in the community a lot of players go |
| 621s | well if these are suggested for |
| 623s | understanding why aren't these just the |
| 625s | requirements you probably should yeah um |
| 628s | the the analogy i often use for this is |
| 630s | like is is like books in a team in a |
| 632s | books in a book series or series in a tv |
| 634s | show or films in a film series that that |
| 637s | when they publish a film called like |
| 639s | star wars seven |
| 641s | there's an implicit suggested |
| 642s | requirement of star wars six but it's |
| 644s | not a hard requirement of star wars six |
| 646s | so like the the group i feel like we |
| 648s | have to support and i think we could do |
| 650s | a better job of supporting to be honest |
| 651s | in the way that we present information |
| 652s | are people who want to play the story in |
| 654s | order like that's me that's type of |
| 655s | player i am |
| 656s | like even for me if i'm playing through |
| 658s | a game series and there's no actual |
| 660s | connection between the stories of the |
| 661s | games let's say final fantasy i'd still |
| 662s | rather play them in order even though |
| 664s | there's no actual story that's just how |
| 666s | i think i'd rather do things in order |
| 667s | and i know there are players that would |
| 668s | rather play runescape in order they |
| 669s | don't want to jump into the story with |
| 671s | missing death they want to play it from |
| 672s | the beginning and get the context and |
| 674s | play through and i totally understand |
| 675s | that and i think we need to do a better |
| 677s | job of allowing those players to do that |
| 679s | where i disagree is with the people who |
| 681s | think that people should be forced to do |
| 683s | that that you're not allowed to jump |
| 685s | into the story at any point where you |
| 686s | like because there are players that |
| 688s | don't think in that way they don't think |
| 690s | about stories they have to play from the |
| 692s | start yeah my my perspective on |
| 694s | runescape and my approach to it i |
| 696s | definitely have little interest in |
| 698s | playing through everything in order or |
| 699s | observing every bit of story i am very |
| 701s | much rewards based if this has something |
| 703s | that i need or i would like to do then i |
| 705s | will you know i will i'll complete that |
| 707s | activity and i do enjoy runescape lore |
| 709s | but not in the sense of reading the |
| 711s | quest dialogue necessarily my spacebar |
| 713s | does get a lot of workouts i will |
| 714s | happily admit i won't i won't take |
| 716s | someone that uh someone that does that |
| 718s | but at the same time i will then go back |
| 720s | and i'll go watch a lore video or you |
| 722s | know make sure i have understanding of |
| 723s | you know what has gone on in the |
| 725s | runescape world to get to this point so |
| 726s | i think it's it's really fair to say |
| 728s | there are multiple players that you know |
| 730s | do things in different ways there's a |
| 731s | belief there's a belief i see from |
| 733s | players |
| 734s | that if you were forced to go back and |
| 736s | complete everything |
| 739s | then you would enjoy it more i don't see |
| 741s | the logic of that perspective like you |
| 743s | will find people occasionally who say oh |
| 744s | well i wasn't going to bother doing |
| 745s | questing but now that i've gone through |
| 747s | all these quests actually i did kind of |
| 748s | enjoy the law but that that doesn't seem |
| 751s | to be the rule that seems to be the |
| 752s | exception almost stems from your point |
| 754s | earlier which was that sometimes players |
| 756s | feel like something that they did in the |
| 758s | past |
| 759s | um or went through in the past whether |
| 760s | that's doing every single quest in order |
| 762s | to get to a certain point um they want |
| 764s | to feel that validated yeah and they |
| 766s | enjoy that and they see other people |
| 768s | and they feel potentially it's maybe a |
| 770s | projection but it's cheapening other |
| 771s | people's experience okay that's not |
| 773s | congruent with their experience yeah no |
| 775s | that's that's a really good comparison |
| 776s | to make because actually there is a |
| 777s | there is a point there of it's not fair |
| 779s | that i had to complete all the |
| 780s | prerequisites and someone else didn't |
| 781s | like like um |
| 783s | um |
| 784s | like obviously priff was hard locked if |
| 786s | we released say arpa sandra or man i |
| 789s | mean actually we did get this with |
| 790s | metaphors right manifest didn't require |
| 791s | all desert quests to access and players |
| 793s | who had completed those desert quests in |
| 795s | the past and had anticipated that |
| 797s | manifold would be a reward for it |
| 799s | were disappointed that people were able |
| 801s | to access it without having completed |
| 802s | those prerequisites they felt like their |
| 804s | investment wasn't being recognized and |
| 806s | that's very difficult it's particularly |
| 807s | difficult when some of those |
| 808s | prerequisites are ancient like 15 years |
| 810s | old you know |
| 812s | and we're effectively talking about |
| 813s | locking a piece of modern content behind |
| 815s | a piece of ancient content |
| 817s | and philosophically |
| 819s | it seems like you don't really want to |
| 821s | do that |
| 823s | unless it's been specifically sort of |
| 824s | carefully curated and we say like like |
| 826s | because we want people to come to |
| 828s | runescape and we want people to play |
| 829s | runescape and we want to show like we |
| 831s | believe that the content that we make is |
| 832s | good right yeah of course yeah and so |
| 834s | and so we want to push people towards |
| 836s | our content and we don't necessarily it |
| 838s | depends that's the thing it depends |
| 839s | entirely on what the prerequisite is um |
| 842s | so i like i'm not very keen on mclaren's |
| 844s | little helper for example so i wouldn't |
| 846s | want to lock something behind mclaren's |
| 847s | little helper because i don't think it |
| 849s | clarence will help her shows runescape |
| 850s | at its best and i think you have to be |
| 852s | quite invested in runescape |
| 855s | already to play through florence's |
| 856s | little helper and go oh yeah this is |
| 858s | this is this is rude i love it i played |
| 860s | through that quest two weeks ago yeah |
| 862s | right i mean there are a number of |
| 863s | quests that especially the older ones |
| 865s | kind of to your point |
| 866s | do not feel like a modern |
| 868s | current year game yeah and i think |
| 871s | that's okay for people who've been |
| 872s | playing for a very long time because you |
| 874s | know we understand what runescape was |
| 876s | like and you know you can look back and |
| 877s | be like wow that animation is crazy or |
| 879s | that really didn't stand up and it's |
| 881s | kind of a fun experience but to a new |
| 883s | player i i can understand the |
| 884s | perspective that it sort of cheapens |
| 886s | their their gameplay experience a little |
| 888s | bit compared to the kinds of things that |
| 889s | you can pump out now and and |
| 893s | again though we can't we're not just |
| 894s | abandoning runescape it's not like we're |
| 895s | ashamed of runescape and we want to hide |
| 896s | it we don't want to just pretend that |
| 898s | say god was three is the only thing that |
| 900s | exists |
| 901s | but but it's about that delicate |
| 903s | compromise of what is and so if we let |
| 904s | if we let just the logic of the story |
| 907s | dictate the requirements like oh well if |
| 910s | i'm so happy has to be required because |
| 911s | the story says it should be required |
| 913s | we're sort of we're sort of um we're not |
| 915s | making the decision based on what we |
| 916s | believe is best for the game we're just |
| 918s | letting the story dictate it which i |
| 920s | don't think is the right i don't think |
| 921s | that's the right way to think about it |
| 922s | it makes a lot of logical sense to do it |
| 924s | in the way that you are doing because |
| 926s | i mean in a perfect universe maybe you |
| 928s | there's going back and revamping every |
| 930s | single old quest so they all stand up |
| 932s | but that would be the idea that's i'm |
| 934s | assuming that's just totally unfeasible |
| 936s | or just not high priority yeah i mean we |
| 938s | you can see where we started that with |
| 939s | the signature heroes reworks |
| 941s | and we got through what five quests in |
| 942s | about three years yep something like |
| 944s | that and they were very high quality i |
| 945s | mean those are fantastic quests and |
| 947s | that's the thing like from and so from |
| 948s | uh from uh like there were questors who |
| 950s | were delighted and like if you ask |
| 951s | questing players they'll say probably a |
| 953s | lot of them will pick those quests are |
| 954s | in their top five or something probably |
| 956s | no one's favorite quest but definitely |
| 957s | top five um |
| 959s | but they weren't doing anything for for |
| 962s | the most engaged part of our player base |
| 963s | a lot of a lot of our players are saying |
| 965s | like where where's the new content |
| 967s | where's the high level content what |
| 968s | what's there for me i don't want to do a |
| 970s | rework of prince early rescue i want to |
| 971s | do something new yeah of course um with |
| 973s | high level rewards with high level |
| 974s | requirements and so they didn't |
| 976s | it's very difficult to draw the right |
| 978s | balance between sort of reworking the |
| 979s | low level and |
| 981s | providing for the high level that seemed |
| 982s | more like an update that was good for |
| 984s | new players yeah exactly to the game |
| 986s | initially and specifically people who |
| 988s | are huge huge into runescape questing |
| 990s | and lore which i would consider like a |
| 993s | fairly niche sub-community perhaps it's |
| 995s | larger than you'd think there are a lot |
| 997s | of players that are there but it's not |
| 999s | like 80 of the player base is going to |
| 1001s | want to you know replay a quest that |
| 1003s | they've previously completed yeah |
| 1004s | exactly yeah i think we were surprised |
| 1006s | when we started doing those reworks |
| 1008s | we were surprised at the level of sort |
| 1010s | of but i don't want to have to do this |
| 1011s | quest again what was it my first it was |
| 1013s | my first project was um |
| 1015s | [Music] |
| 1017s | julia that was my first project i was i |
| 1019s | was told to remove romeo and juliet and |
| 1020s | replace it with something else and which |
| 1022s | in retrospect i'm not sure was i mean i |
| 1024s | don't it's complicated because obviously |
| 1026s | there's the ip stuff is complicated i'm |
| 1027s | glad it existed an old school put it |
| 1028s | that way i was surprised on launch how |
| 1031s | many players were kind of grumpy that |
| 1032s | they had to complete it again and i'm |
| 1033s | like it takes like 10 minutes like what |
| 1035s | are you talking about but there was |
| 1036s | genuine frustration that something they |
| 1038s | considered ticked off was now i mean i'm |
| 1040s | just remembering i'm pretty sure but we |
| 1042s | on we on set credit for it and you have |
| 1044s | to complete it again i am not 100 on |
| 1046s | that but i will say i will admit i am |
| 1048s | someone that fits into that category i |
| 1050s | did not like having to on my max main |
| 1052s | account have to replay the demonstrator |
| 1053s | quests that i completed 15 years ago |
| 1055s | yeah it wasn't like the rework quest was |
| 1057s | significantly better than the original |
| 1059s | it was a lot more fun to play through it |
| 1060s | was objectively interesting but i'd |
| 1062s | still definitely fit into the category |
| 1063s | of like |
| 1065s | i should have the option to not have to |
| 1066s | redo this |
| 1068s | that attitude very much informed how we |
| 1070s | thought about that kind of content |
| 1071s | because |
| 1073s | if if we're producing content and our |
| 1075s | our most engaged players not counting |
| 1077s | the quest players |
| 1079s | are finding like basically we just put a |
| 1081s | lot of time and effort into something |
| 1082s | and our most engaged players are annoyed |
| 1084s | by it rather than pleased by it i think |
| 1086s | a lot of that comes down to the player |
| 1088s | bases sentiment on kind of reward |
| 1091s | spacing and why players engage with |
| 1093s | content to complete it if you're someone |
| 1094s | that completed that quest because you |
| 1096s | wanted the four quest points redoing it |
| 1098s | for not any quest points because you've |
| 1099s | already done it that's not going to feel |
| 1101s | like it was a good use of time |
| 1103s | at the same time yeah if it's reward |
| 1105s | based and it's got a good word very cool |
| 1107s | and yeah i think you just find a lot of |
| 1109s | players play the game for different |
| 1110s | reasons so it's kind of hard to |
| 1112s | find the balance of yeah yeah and so |
| 1115s | yeah |
| 1115s | that circles us background to like yeah |
| 1117s | high level quests are |
| 1119s | are rewarding for story players and they |
| 1120s | should also be like you know obviously |
| 1122s | sometimes we don't get it right but they |
| 1123s | should also be rewarding for non-story |
| 1125s | players there should be there should be |
| 1126s | good use of your times worth bothering |
| 1128s | to spacebar through the quest for people |
| 1129s | who aren't interested in the story um |
| 1132s | and that doesn't work particularly well |
| 1134s | at a level i mean we talked about it at |
| 1135s | the start broken home was worth |
| 1137s | completing at the time when the ring was |
| 1139s | good because |
| 1141s | you know you kind of had to do it but |
| 1143s | then it doesn't quite feel right right |
| 1144s | it's a novice quest it doesn't so |
| 1146s | high-level quests with requirements with |
| 1148s | good rewards feels right yes anything |
| 1151s | else kind of feels a bit wrong but then |
| 1153s | we end up at but then the high level |
| 1154s | records sorry the high level quests are |
| 1156s | too exclusive |
| 1157s | so we have to trim some of the |
| 1158s | requirements to make them a bit more |
| 1160s | accessible but you do keep the rewards |
| 1162s | still but we do keep the rewards still |
| 1163s | yeah and then i think i think that's |
| 1165s | part of it as well the last series of |
| 1166s | quests that you know were received in in |
| 1169s | different ways for many different |
| 1170s | reasons but purely from a design reward |
| 1172s | balancing standpoint for the |
| 1174s | requirements i know a lot of people feel |
| 1175s | like wow this is like the strongest |
| 1177s | quest in the game with regard to its |
| 1179s | experience reward for how much you know |
| 1182s | i have to do prior to being able to |
| 1183s | access it and |
| 1185s | is that something that is done |
| 1187s | in a way because the game is you know |
| 1189s | the game has changed from the last grand |
| 1191s | master quest up to this one it's just xp |
| 1193s | rates or higher or anything like that i |
| 1195s | mean the basic philosophy for people |
| 1196s | people often like turn up their nose at |
| 1198s | the xp rewards from from quests |
| 1200s | they're basically there to compensate |
| 1202s | you for your time right like you could |
| 1203s | have spent the time playing the quest |
| 1204s | skilling instead and we don't want the |
| 1206s | quest to feel like it was like it's |
| 1209s | outside the other rewards the time spent |
| 1211s | completing the quest should have been |
| 1212s | better use of your time than scaling we |
| 1214s | can't always balance it exactly that way |
| 1216s | because it obviously depends on the |
| 1216s | player and the method yeah what they |
| 1218s | would have been |
| 1219s | to do but that that that lamp isn't |
| 1221s | there to |
| 1223s | sort of excite you to complete the quest |
| 1224s | it's there to compensate you for your |
| 1226s | time so then you would say like a |
| 1227s | driving factor in those lamps getting |
| 1230s | you know seemingly stronger over time |
| 1231s | would be actually based on x periods |
| 1234s | possibly going on it's not going to feel |
| 1235s | like if okay if it's based on xp rates |
| 1237s | from 10 years ago it's not going to feel |
| 1238s | like fair compensation for your time |
| 1239s | because you could do better than that |
| 1240s | now by not questing oh for sure i mean |
| 1242s | when you play through the early game |
| 1244s | again you'll complete an hour-long quest |
| 1246s | and it'll be here's a 1k or here's a 250 |
| 1248s | xp thieving |
| 1250s | like |
| 1251s | sweet |
| 1253s | i think that makes sense and that's good |
| 1255s | insight because i think |
| 1257s | a player perspective like i've been |
| 1258s | playing the game for 17 years and when i |
| 1260s | see some of these xpure words i'm like |
| 1262s | that's a lot of experience comparatively |
| 1264s | to two other quests and i think it's |
| 1266s | probably one of the the first times the |
| 1268s | kind of logic dictating that is it's |
| 1269s | it's honestly it's difficult because we |
| 1270s | give we give these huge xp rewards and |
| 1272s | players look at them and still go |
| 1274s | let's not i could get more than that in |
| 1275s | the same time like i just go do |
| 1277s | something yeah i'm sure you get some of |
| 1278s | that too so it's |
| 1280s | we're giving huge amounts of xp away but |
| 1282s | they're also not really huge amounts of |
| 1284s | xp in the context of how long it took |
| 1285s | you to complete the quest |
| 1287s | is there ever a consideration for |
| 1288s | ironman with regard to the exterior |
| 1290s | words because i think |
| 1292s | you you said earlier that you're not |
| 1293s | expecting someone's going to complete |
| 1295s | the quest for the xp award but i think |
| 1297s | that completely changes in iron man mode |
| 1299s | yeah i mean for many skills is to rush a |
| 1302s | lot of these early quests because you |
| 1303s | can skip significant parts of of certain |
| 1306s | skills that are more tedious to train |
| 1307s | it's been a while since we did an early |
| 1309s | quest and i i don't think we consciously |
| 1310s | balance with that in mind but as with |
| 1312s | everything with iron man it's like if it |
| 1313s | works out nicely for iron man that's |
| 1314s | great like it's it's nice for that to |
| 1316s | work out for iron man and i'm glad if it |
| 1317s | does that isn't something that we're |
| 1319s | consciously accounting for i would say |
| 1320s | during it maybe that individual dev |
| 1322s | actually is and i'm not aware of that |
| 1324s | but from my point of view for the most |
| 1325s | part it's bounced around we're not going |
| 1326s | to take an experience let's creep the xp |
| 1328s | up down a little bit because of iron man |
| 1330s | i wouldn't i wouldn't have said we would |
| 1331s | do that okay no that's interesting |
| 1333s | because i think it has a large impact on |
| 1335s | on iron man accounts and i think you get |
| 1336s | a lot of that |
| 1337s | wow you can fast track a lot of this |
| 1339s | stuff that i had to do in a very grindy |
| 1341s | way because |
| 1343s | with the lower requirements as well |
| 1345s | they're very not only are they new or |
| 1346s | lapse player accessible but they're also |
| 1348s | way more iron man accessible yeah so |
| 1350s | they'll like yeah |
| 1351s | not to go too far into metas here but |
| 1353s | the the meta for an iron man at this |
| 1355s | current juncture is you're just rushing |
| 1357s | all of these quests that give you huge |
| 1358s | lamp rewards and then you can basically |
| 1360s | get up to overloads without actually |
| 1362s | having to train her blower and that's |
| 1364s | like that's the the strong firm meta um |
| 1366s | yeah that's not something that's super |
| 1368s | super considerate or |
| 1369s | or probably no yeah it's kind of a side |
| 1371s | effect of |
| 1373s | um it's kind of a side effect of of just |
| 1376s | the way that the game is designed anyway |
| 1377s | i mean i i think i would say like on on |
| 1379s | the subject of iron man philosophy i |
| 1380s | think part of what we |
| 1381s | [Music] |
| 1383s | part of in a sense part of the identity |
| 1384s | of iron man is figuring out those |
| 1386s | strategies right and if we designed if |
| 1389s | we over designed the path for iron men |
| 1392s | there wouldn't be that strategizing if |
| 1395s | it was just start at the start of the |
| 1396s | quest list and work your way down |
| 1397s | because every single thing on the quest |
| 1398s | list is worth doing then an iron man |
| 1400s | account basically would be a questor |
| 1401s | account yes and it's and it's it's |
| 1403s | figuring out you know what on that list |
| 1405s | is worth skipping or what on that work |
| 1407s | list is worth specifically targeting and |
| 1408s | doing the requirements for is part of |
| 1410s | what makes that experience interesting i |
| 1411s | would say for sure i think i don't mean |
| 1413s | that as a defense of bad balancing no |
| 1415s | it's a happy coincidence of the fact |
| 1417s | that it's not balanced specifically |
| 1419s | coincidentally i think a lot of quests |
| 1420s | feel more worthwhile on iron man because |
| 1422s | that's just another facet of reward |
| 1424s | space that would be more beneficial on |
| 1426s | an iron than it is on a main because it |
| 1427s | is as you've now you know mentioned it's |
| 1429s | it's it's balanced around xp rates on a |
| 1432s | main account perhaps so yeah no that's |
| 1434s | that's very interesting and i personally |
| 1436s | i find quest way more rewarding on an |
| 1438s | iron man because and it's predominantly |
| 1440s | because of that additional xp award that |
| 1442s | means a lot more to me on that account |
| 1444s | yeah i wanted to discuss the |
| 1446s | completionist cape which is obviously |
| 1448s | you know a very hot topic |
| 1451s | i think |
| 1452s | also a topic that i know a lot of |
| 1453s | players that are you know in that |
| 1455s | completionist playstyle are heavily |
| 1457s | invested in um and i think the the first |
| 1460s | point is i think the completionist cape |
| 1462s | was initially designed and you can |
| 1463s | correct me from wrong here of course you |
| 1465s | know to be a status symbol that showed i |
| 1467s | have completed runescape |
| 1469s | and i think over the the course of the |
| 1471s | last you know five six years i think |
| 1472s | that has gradually changed where it sort |
| 1474s | of means something else because for most |
| 1477s | updates comp requires you know a certain |
| 1480s | amount of completion |
| 1482s | but a lot of the time it's it's you |
| 1484s | definitely couldn't make an argument |
| 1485s | that it was a full completion of |
| 1486s | runescape to have the comp cape it seems |
| 1488s | like a yes a set of individual |
| 1490s | requirements that yeah you know |
| 1491s | occasionally you could even say feel a |
| 1492s | little arbitrary at times to say i have |
| 1494s | engaged with this content for this |
| 1497s | arbitrary amount of time enough to get a |
| 1499s | checklist that's exactly right yeah i've |
| 1500s | engaged with this content like yeah it |
| 1501s | would it would be i guess the way i |
| 1503s | would put it because i spent a lot of |
| 1504s | time when i was doing the company work |
| 1506s | project i spent a lot of time talking to |
| 1507s | compass and trim compass and trying to |
| 1509s | find the right like mission statement |
| 1511s | almost for those different levels i |
| 1512s | can't remember them off of my head but |
| 1513s | you know yeah comp is basically like |
| 1515s | or should be i should say i have i i've |
| 1519s | engaged with this content enough to |
| 1520s | understand it like i know about this |
| 1522s | content if someone asks me oh what's |
| 1524s | that what's the point of doing that how |
| 1525s | do i do that i can tell them because |
| 1526s | i've done it i haven't necessarily |
| 1529s | completed every last tiny part of it it |
| 1531s | depends on the size of the piece of |
| 1532s | content |
| 1533s | there's a there's a there's a topic |
| 1534s | worth getting into there about the the |
| 1536s | weird effect that the existence of comp |
| 1538s | and achievements has on content |
| 1540s | like the existence of comp |
| 1543s | forces or |
| 1544s | again should force |
| 1546s | the comp to be considered in the design |
| 1548s | so if we take if we took the attitude |
| 1550s | the comp is absolute completionism or |
| 1551s | some people do some people some people's |
| 1553s | vision of comp |
| 1554s | is is trim comp or true true yeah like |
| 1557s | some people think that there should be |
| 1558s | no |
| 1559s | cape other than true jim which is |
| 1561s | essentially i have done absolutely every |
| 1563s | single piece of content if it exists i |
| 1565s | have done it to completion |
| 1566s | and the problem with that is that that |
| 1569s | has an effect on the way that we think |
| 1570s | about content like say we want say we |
| 1573s | want to design a reward shop so we're |
| 1574s | designing a piece of content that |
| 1575s | rewards tokens and it's a reward shop |
| 1578s | and we want to put like we want people |
| 1579s | to engage with the content to some |
| 1581s | extent like the reason we've implemented |
| 1583s | a shop is so you can choose what rewards |
| 1584s | you get if you want you can put more |
| 1585s | effort and get more rewards uh if you |
| 1587s | want you could put even more reward |
| 1588s | effort and get even more rewards and we |
| 1590s | have the option to put some ludicrously |
| 1592s | priced reward in that shop that's like |
| 1594s | just way more like a reasonable player |
| 1596s | isn't going to go for it almost like the |
| 1598s | pets in the old dungeoneering token shop |
| 1599s | where some of them cost an absolutely |
| 1601s | ludicrous amount of tokens right |
| 1602s | something something ludicrous something |
| 1603s | that's explicitly designed to look |
| 1606s | unappealing to the majority of players |
| 1607s | like |
| 1608s | you don't you don't want to get that |
| 1610s | it's so highly priced but for the |
| 1612s | extremely hyper-engaged person or the |
| 1614s | person who really enjoys that content |
| 1615s | and wants yeah |
| 1617s | it's a badge of honor |
| 1619s | exactly i have engaged with this content |
| 1620s | an absolutely ridiculous amount and now |
| 1623s | i have this ridiculous reward that is |
| 1625s | not but if we assume that that something |
| 1627s | like that has to be on com |
| 1629s | then |
| 1631s | we don't put it in the game |
| 1632s | so the the existence of the philosophy |
| 1634s | that extreme ludicrous rewards ought to |
| 1637s | be on cops |
| 1638s | you know yeah yeah spaces anything |
| 1640s | achievable yeah if if if we had to put |
| 1643s | them on com we wouldn't add them to the |
| 1644s | game in the first place because we don't |
| 1645s | we want there to be |
| 1647s | levels of accomplishment so when you say |
| 1648s | it feels slightly arbitrary what you |
| 1650s | have to do to get comp it kind of is |
| 1651s | it's kind of like |
| 1653s | we're trying to judge like a reasonable |
| 1654s | level of engagement because if you've |
| 1656s | got once you've unlocked everything else |
| 1657s | in the shop right |
| 1659s | for this hypothetical example you've |
| 1660s | unlocked everything else in the shop you |
| 1661s | haven't got this extreme reward |
| 1663s | you know the content right yes you never |
| 1665s | ground out that final reward but you |
| 1667s | know the content really well you've |
| 1668s | ticked that box right yeah i do i think |
| 1671s | it's fine that there's a there's a level |
| 1672s | of accomplishment above that which is |
| 1673s | yeah you actually did go beyond yeah and |
| 1676s | get everything but i think we do need |
| 1677s | those two levels |
| 1679s | i i guess it's something that it would |
| 1680s | just be unreasonable to |
| 1683s | expect any player who wants a comp cape |
| 1685s | to become this super user who's going to |
| 1687s | be you know and these are smaller word |
| 1689s | spaces that are designed for that very |
| 1691s | very specific individual most people |
| 1693s | aren't supposed to touch it and yeah i |
| 1695s | think it's really interesting that and |
| 1696s | it makes perfect sense that if you you |
| 1699s | know if comp required actually |
| 1700s | completing runescape you wouldn't be |
| 1703s | able to or you have a much tougher time |
| 1704s | adding that kind of reward that you know |
| 1706s | makes a a big difference for those |
| 1708s | players i think a good example that |
| 1709s | comes to mind uh maybe not so much |
| 1710s | recently but when runespan came out |
| 1712s | you've also got your prestiging by |
| 1713s | collecting runespan points and getting |
| 1715s | your tears up that wasn't something |
| 1717s | designed for the majority of players to |
| 1718s | get and yeah to my knowledge that's not |
| 1719s | a base comp requirement to max out spin |
| 1723s | but it is a trim requirement yeah but by |
| 1725s | put by by making something a formal |
| 1726s | accomplishment putting it on yeah |
| 1729s | putting an achievement for it |
| 1731s | we're almost sort of daring the players |
| 1733s | to do it |
| 1734s | like we're setting that challenge in |
| 1735s | front of them we're saying this is |
| 1736s | something we expect you to do like |
| 1738s | people look at comp as a checklist of |
| 1740s | things they have to do exactly now not |
| 1741s | all players thinking those no but |
| 1743s | they're they're playing a sub subset of |
| 1745s | player that plays to upkeep their comp |
| 1747s | cape and that's a big thing that they |
| 1748s | you know they feel good about having the |
| 1750s | comp cake no matter what you put out |
| 1752s | even if it you know if it was staring at |
| 1754s | a wall for x amount of hours they would |
| 1755s | do it so they could upkeep their concave |
| 1757s | yeah and so one of one of the challenges |
| 1759s | that we see is um |
| 1761s | we effectively have two different |
| 1762s | communities there that have |
| 1763s | diametrically opposed well so this is |
| 1765s | less the case now that we took the |
| 1766s | combat the combat benefits yeah and |
| 1768s | we'll get into that after as well um but |
| 1770s | we we still have these two communities |
| 1771s | one of whom sort of |
| 1773s | want their cape and want the minimum |
| 1775s | effort |
| 1776s | i would say the comp cape was designed |
| 1778s | for the community that did everything |
| 1779s | anyway |
| 1780s | and want that recognized but we also |
| 1783s | have the second community of people who |
| 1785s | want |
| 1786s | they want |
| 1787s | the minimum amount of investment and i |
| 1789s | don't mean they're wrong i think some of |
| 1790s | the first group might look at the second |
| 1791s | room and say yeah but like it's a |
| 1792s | perfectly legitimate play style but then |
| 1794s | we have like it's not like there's a |
| 1796s | universal |
| 1797s | there should just be everything or more |
| 1799s | more on the comp cape the high effort |
| 1801s | group want more on the complicate the |
| 1802s | lower effort group want less |
| 1805s | we have to find the right balance i i |
| 1807s | would say personally i think we've |
| 1808s | probably skewed way too low we can talk |
| 1810s | into talk a bit about why that hasn't |
| 1812s | happened but |
| 1813s | um it is yeah it certainly isn't the |
| 1815s | case that we should put everything on |
| 1816s | there because there is a there are |
| 1818s | players who see it as a sort of um |
| 1820s | mandate i'm sure from a design |
| 1821s | standpoint your ideal isn't you don't |
| 1823s | want a significant subsidy or player |
| 1825s | base |
| 1826s | doing things |
| 1827s | that they don't want to do |
| 1829s | within the game just to like you know |
| 1832s | exactly yeah |
| 1833s | exactly it feels like a job almost at |
| 1835s | that point or a grind at that point |
| 1836s | where i'm assuming you'd prefer people |
| 1838s | play the things that they want to do in |
| 1839s | the game yeah yeah we want to recognize |
| 1841s | that someone has done something they |
| 1842s | enjoyed yes rather than demand that they |
| 1844s | do something they hate yeah and and and |
| 1847s | that that that distinction kind of |
| 1849s | attacks the very heart of what comp is |
| 1850s | trying to accomplish in the future yeah |
| 1851s | absolutely cause you kind of can't have |
| 1852s | one without these you can't do both |
| 1854s | because the whole point of comp is that |
| 1855s | you do everything |
| 1856s | even if you don't like it which is like |
| 1858s | yeah it's really tricky so with relation |
| 1860s | to that i think uh |
| 1862s | combat was removed from the completion |
| 1865s | escape reaper title was you know removed |
| 1867s | from from the requirements which is to |
| 1869s | get one kill at every boss in the game |
| 1871s | uh just to ask you like full-on blanket |
| 1874s | why did that happen and how do you feel |
| 1876s | about that happening so it's it's it was |
| 1878s | done because kind of because of the the |
| 1880s | checklist thing that we were talking |
| 1882s | about of like because comp was seen as |
| 1885s | it's the next endgame goal be on max |
| 1887s | right it's like what you what why am i |
| 1888s | even playing runescape well i'm |
| 1890s | if you want a goal if you want a |
| 1891s | specific yeah |
| 1892s | comp is the next goal on on that on that |
| 1895s | list and |
| 1896s | but but so the the re it's not the |
| 1898s | combat in and of itself doesn't need an |
| 1901s | exception but the problem is combat is |
| 1904s | very skill intensive skill in the player |
| 1906s | skill sense yeah actions per minute it's |
| 1908s | not a casual thing it's not a time-based |
| 1911s | grind per se it's easy |
| 1913s | right so combat players would say it's |
| 1915s | not that hard but it's it's hard well i |
| 1917s | mean it's easy to say once you've |
| 1918s | learned something yeah hey i know how to |
| 1920s | do this so this isn't hard but but |
| 1921s | killing any boss is a stairwell any any |
| 1924s | reasonably high level boss is a step |
| 1925s | above like grinding out on 99 in terms |
| 1927s | of |
| 1928s | having to learn how to do it rather than |
| 1930s | just putting more time into it it's very |
| 1932s | difficult yes kinds of content yeah it's |
| 1934s | hugely different to put time into |
| 1935s | something and have a linear progression |
| 1937s | versus having to actually study |
| 1939s | something practice something put you |
| 1940s | know that kind of effort into it that's |
| 1942s | a lot more engaged absolutely yeah |
| 1944s | i know |
| 1945s | so yeah it was it was the things that i |
| 1948s | couldn't just grind out were the things |
| 1950s | that didn't necessarily belong on com |
| 1953s | which is tricky because then it sort of |
| 1955s | now now that's that has changed the |
| 1956s | identity of the comp gate yeah |
| 1957s | absolutely because it's now changed from |
| 1959s | i've engaged with all content in the |
| 1960s | game to i've engaged with grinding |
| 1963s | grinding kind of in the game yeah |
| 1965s | very different yeah exactly which is a |
| 1966s | very different identity i would say i'm |
| 1969s | not entirely happy with where it's ended |
| 1970s | up in that regard |
| 1971s | um |
| 1972s | i could see uh they did if you remember |
| 1974s | the comm kit rework it was uh the idea |
| 1976s | there was to subdivide it into different |
| 1978s | different categories of achievement and |
| 1979s | then the complicate would be the |
| 1980s | combination of them so there would be a |
| 1981s | combat cape and a scaling cape and a |
| 1982s | question cape and that would simplify |
| 1984s | slightly they would combine together to |
| 1986s | form the complicated i could see perhaps |
| 1987s | a simplified version of that where |
| 1989s | there's essentially like a step between |
| 1991s | comp and trim comp which is like complex |
| 1994s | or something like that that include |
| 1995s | unknown not promising anything like when |
| 1996s | i think about how you could solve this |
| 1998s | problem slightly more simply yeah but |
| 2000s | look so um it would make sense for it to |
| 2002s | be trimmed except there's already a trim |
| 2003s | comb but you know what i mean it's comp |
| 2004s | plus a little bit because i've also done |
| 2006s | reaper or whatever |
| 2008s | so it's yeah comp without combat and |
| 2010s | comb with combat could be sort of |
| 2012s | recognized slightly separately i think |
| 2013s | that would be a good way to compromise |
| 2015s | on that it's interesting it's uh |
| 2017s | compromise it's it's tough to uh |
| 2020s | it's tough to do as well because a |
| 2021s | certain subset of players are still |
| 2023s | going to feel forced to engage with the |
| 2024s | content they don't want to if it's added |
| 2026s | if it's any kind of check mark anywhere |
| 2028s | people are or a certain subset of people |
| 2030s | are going to feel like they have to |
| 2032s | engage with and i suppose that's a big |
| 2033s | part of the removal of it is i'm |
| 2034s | assuming it was just a big pain point |
| 2036s | for a lot of players that wanted to |
| 2037s | grind things and didn't want to learn |
| 2039s | things yeah that we well i i |
| 2041s | i don't think didn't want to learn is |
| 2043s | entirely fair but like there are large |
| 2045s | groups of our players for whom there are |
| 2046s | different barriers |
| 2048s | just for |
| 2049s | bossing yeah they're just it's a |
| 2050s | different kind of gameplay experience |
| 2052s | for me it might be that if they had like |
| 2054s | a personal tutor that could guide them |
| 2055s | through it they probably could get a |
| 2057s | kill oh absolutely they don't |
| 2058s | necessarily have access to that yeah it |
| 2059s | requires i mean and that's a whole |
| 2061s | different different topic that we're not |
| 2062s | going to get into today but with regard |
| 2064s | to you know what it takes to get into |
| 2066s | learning the combat system and and sort |
| 2068s | of |
| 2069s | i'm probably of the opinion just um |
| 2071s | before we you know shift back on topic |
| 2073s | that if combat was |
| 2074s | easier to learn or there were better |
| 2076s | tools in the game to learn combat |
| 2078s | comp and combat probably stay together |
| 2080s | they probably don't have to be separated |
| 2082s | in the way that they were |
| 2084s | i guess it depends on the yeah it |
| 2085s | depends on the type of content we have |
| 2086s | in the past focused on making quite |
| 2088s | exclusive content |
| 2090s | i could i my preference and i don't mean |
| 2092s | this is a policy choice but my personal |
| 2094s | preference would be |
| 2096s | i think bosses should probably ship with |
| 2098s | story modes |
| 2100s | as the these have story modes oh this is |
| 2101s | an alternative yeah for that player but |
| 2103s | then but then i'm not sure that |
| 2104s | necessarily answers the comp question |
| 2106s | because if i've only completed if i've |
| 2108s | only done the eds on story mode have i |
| 2110s | really done the eds from the point of |
| 2111s | view of i've engaged with all the |
| 2112s | content in the game the story mode so |
| 2114s | the eds are so easy that you could argue |
| 2116s | that i've barely really engaged with |
| 2117s | that at all i've seen the story i've |
| 2119s | seen the |
| 2120s | seen the names of the bosses but have i |
| 2121s | really engaged with the content it's |
| 2122s | tricky to say it's a check mark so i |
| 2124s | haven't sat down and learned the boss's |
| 2126s | mechanics and learned how to set up my |
| 2128s | bars and learned what gear i need for |
| 2129s | this boss have i really engaged with the |
| 2131s | content |
| 2132s | i mean i think the honest answer is no |
| 2134s | but then we're straight back to life but |
| 2135s | with regard to how comp is considered |
| 2137s | across the game i think yeah you could |
| 2139s | probably count it if we shift gears a |
| 2141s | little bit to the trim completion escape |
| 2143s | uh the trim comp cape is designed to be |
| 2145s | you know a little closer to possibly |
| 2148s | what the initial comp idea was which was |
| 2150s | completing the game yeah trim comp cape |
| 2152s | also has little to no pvm |
| 2155s | on it um |
| 2157s | and is there you know is the rationale |
| 2159s | for that different because trim is |
| 2161s | supposed to be a little more in line |
| 2163s | with completely i think so i think it's |
| 2165s | it's a player type problem and again i |
| 2167s | think you could do like a trim comp plus |
| 2168s | that has more pvm requirements on it in |
| 2170s | a similar sort of sense of thinking |
| 2172s | about the concave |
| 2174s | one of the things that we think about a |
| 2175s | lot is player types like who is when we |
| 2178s | talk about when we design content we're |
| 2180s | always thinking about who this content |
| 2181s | is aimed for and you can simplify that |
| 2183s | down to pbm a skill or questor but |
| 2185s | actually it's a little bit more nuanced |
| 2187s | than that like you might have sort of um |
| 2190s | you know quick intense combat which is |
| 2192s | satisfying for a short period or long |
| 2193s | grinding content that you have to grind |
| 2195s | out for a long time and the basic fact |
| 2196s | of comp and trim is that by nature of |
| 2198s | what they are |
| 2200s | they are inherently grindy yes like |
| 2202s | that's kind of what they are that's kind |
| 2204s | of the problem and so for the for the |
| 2205s | intense pvm |
| 2207s | there's actually quite a lot of reward |
| 2208s | structures already for pvm right yeah |
| 2210s | you've got boss logs and reaper title |
| 2212s | and gold reaper and all and and |
| 2214s | literally just the drop tables and |
| 2215s | economy of pvp itself right there's a |
| 2217s | lot to engage with with pvm if you're a |
| 2219s | more grindy person who just likes |
| 2220s | grinding out |
| 2222s | well |
| 2222s | to an extent like there's there's a |
| 2224s | there's a there's a player attitude this |
| 2225s | is the kind of player i am more am of of |
| 2227s | just sort of grinding things out slowly |
| 2229s | over time |
| 2230s | um |
| 2231s | it sort of doesn't matter what it is the |
| 2233s | point is to just take it off that's yeah |
| 2235s | completionism right yeah like when |
| 2236s | you're going through trying to that is i |
| 2238s | guess i guess we think about it in terms |
| 2239s | of like achievement systems in other |
| 2240s | games like we've got you've got your |
| 2243s | like you know find the million pigeons |
| 2246s | separate from complete the game on the |
| 2247s | hardest difficulty those are two very |
| 2248s | different kinds of achievements |
| 2251s | and comp for me vias much more towards |
| 2253s | the grind out a million pigeons sort of |
| 2255s | design |
| 2257s | simply because we already do a really |
| 2258s | good job of delivering on rewarding for |
| 2260s | people who are hyper engaged for people |
| 2262s | who are |
| 2263s | really |
| 2264s | um interested in high performance we |
| 2266s | already recognize that in quite a lot of |
| 2267s | ways and |
| 2268s | content coming up is going to do an even |
| 2269s | better job of that i think but that |
| 2271s | person who just wants to sit and and |
| 2272s | sort of and grind stuff out like why |
| 2275s | would i bother to grind out a million |
| 2277s | pigeons if the platinum trophy is locked |
| 2279s | behind the hardest difficulty which i |
| 2280s | can't complete |
| 2281s | like comp for me sits in that in that |
| 2283s | low skill space and i i think it's a low |
| 2286s | skill high effort high time |
| 2288s | time and high because it was always |
| 2289s | going to be low because because there's |
| 2291s | no way to design a comp cap that isn't |
| 2293s | if i time yeah |
| 2295s | um |
| 2297s | by by by by putting a high skill |
| 2300s | requirement on that as well |
| 2302s | we have a piece of content which is |
| 2303s | essentially only aimed at people who are |
| 2305s | both high effort high time and high |
| 2308s | skill |
| 2309s | high performance yeah that's an |
| 2311s | extremely narrow part of our player base |
| 2314s | would you ever do a completionist cape |
| 2316s | that was specific to combat |
| 2319s | so completing all of the combat |
| 2321s | achievements in the game so it's not |
| 2322s | i've been thinking about thinking about |
| 2324s | anything else like if we think about |
| 2325s | like what trim plus could be then that |
| 2327s | could be yeah something yeah part of |
| 2328s | that no i can't promise that yeah no of |
| 2330s | course just like how do you feel about |
| 2332s | that for the people that just engage |
| 2334s | with the one piece of content |
| 2337s | of the quest in relation to i mean |
| 2339s | earlier you spoke on um |
| 2341s | do you think there's future content that |
| 2342s | is going to reward you know end game end |
| 2344s | game pvmers and give them a sense of |
| 2346s | accomplishment uh i'm assuming you're |
| 2347s | referring to the zen rock boss yeah okay |
| 2349s | so that has that has a high score table |
| 2351s | for enrage yes |
| 2353s | and that i mean sorry |
| 2356s | that's not the only way to to think |
| 2357s | about that kind of content but i think |
| 2358s | that's a really good way of sort of |
| 2359s | recognizing absolutely it's a place |
| 2361s | in-game you can see the the top people |
| 2363s | and i think that's something that people |
| 2364s | in the community have been asking for |
| 2365s | for a long time because |
| 2367s | it's really easy as just a way to you |
| 2369s | know make their efforts and their skill |
| 2371s | you know |
| 2372s | it broadcasts it it gives them a |
| 2373s | platform and it's appreciated i think |
| 2375s | the first time that was ever done was |
| 2376s | when 4k telus was first first done by a |
| 2379s | player named satin uh there's now a line |
| 2381s | of in-game dialogue yeah um and i think |
| 2384s | little touches like that um and you know |
| 2386s | take it further to leaderboard i think |
| 2387s | that's a really good way to make pv |
| 2388s | members still feel included because |
| 2390s | there's definitely an aspect of us and |
| 2393s | them |
| 2394s | um and i'm definitely i i relate more i |
| 2396s | mean i'm more of an iron man than |
| 2397s | anything now but i relate to the pvm |
| 2399s | community that's sort of my bread and |
| 2400s | butter that's the thing that keeps me |
| 2402s | playing the game and i enjoy like |
| 2403s | casually when i'm playing skill on my |
| 2405s | own time and i definitely get a get a |
| 2407s | sense that there is a good amount of |
| 2409s | overlap but at the same time there are |
| 2411s | players that feel like okay so all of |
| 2413s | these aspects of the game we've got |
| 2414s | these capes we've got these particles |
| 2416s | we've got these reward spaces and then |
| 2417s | for pvming you know it might be a title |
| 2420s | it might be a it might be an arbitrary |
| 2422s | check mark but it doesn't feel |
| 2423s | necessarily |
| 2425s | like it's been paid attention to in the |
| 2427s | same way yeah |
| 2428s | yeah no and i think yeah i i don't want |
| 2430s | i don't mean at all that we're like oh |
| 2431s | everything's perfect and we don't need |
| 2432s | to change anything but i think we're |
| 2433s | definitely focusing on on doing more |
| 2435s | with that |
| 2437s | and i think the the high school table is |
| 2438s | a good example of that fantastic |
| 2440s | okay well that's all the time we have |
| 2442s | but uh thank you so much for joining and |
| 2444s | uh yeah we'll uh we'll see you all very |
| 2446s | soon |
| 2453s | you |