devtrackers.gg
almost 2 years
ago -
RuneScape
-
Direct link
Transcript (by Youtube)
| 0s | foreign |
|---|---|
| 3s | welcome back to the show everyone today |
| 6s | I am live from jackets HQ joined by the |
| 9s | combat Council or members of the combat |
| 11s | Council I've Got Mods pie Ramen Ryan and |
| 14s | a sponge here with me today and we're |
| 15s | going to be talking about learning |
| 16s | pvming and a lot of the the thought |
| 18s | process that goes into the way the |
| 20s | combat system works and feels and is |
| 22s | learned in uh in 2022. hi I'm motpai I'm |
| 26s | a senior gameplay engineer now I keep on |
| 29s | changing my title |
| 30s | um I work a lot in combat I'm not Ramen |
| 33s | uh also known as Kyle |
| 35s | um I am a senior content developer I've |
| 37s | worked at targets for nine years now and |
| 38s | I've worked on a large array of Boss |
| 42s | content and slow creatures hey I'm mod |
| 44s | sponge |
| 46s | um I've worked at jagex now for |
| 48s | four or so years originally is QA now |
| 51s | I'm content developer |
| 53s | um frequently doing rewards at the |
| 55s | moment doing a lot of combat stuff |
| 58s | um but if you're using a rule at the |
| 59s | moment it's probably made by me hey I'm |
| 61s | mod Ryan |
| 62s | um principal content developer and of |
| 65s | all the combat updates I've worked on |
| 67s | um various the the famous great Ricochet |
| 70s | as everyone loves to talk about |
| 72s | um and then things like Rapture Zuck |
| 75s | um Soul Reaper things like that so |
| 77s | RuneScape I think it's a very very old |
| 80s | game and the combat system has been |
| 81s | consistently evolving since the |
| 82s | evolution of combat and I think over |
| 84s | time it's gotten a little more complex |
| 87s | um definitely from from where it |
| 88s | initially was and along with that I |
| 91s | think Comes potential you know |
| 92s | difficulties with learning it because |
| 94s | all of a sudden instead of learning |
| 95s | something very simple which is you have |
| 97s | eight or nine different abilities and |
| 99s | there are only so many different things |
| 100s | you can do in press as you continue to |
| 103s | tack on different abilities or maybe a |
| 105s | potential switch or a potential you know |
| 107s | new interaction or new content power |
| 109s | creep the complexity goes goes up and |
| 112s | increases and I think there's a |
| 113s | sentiment among players that the game at |
| 116s | this current stage is a lot more |
| 118s | difficult to learn and understand than |
| 120s | it maybe that had been in the past so if |
| 123s | we could just go around the room I'll |
| 124s | start with uh let's start with pie how |
| 125s | do you feel about the learnability of |
| 128s | RuneScape in 2022 or in current year uh |
| 132s | it's difficult one to ask right so |
| 135s | when we're approaching it as a designer |
| 137s | we went and say you say learn the combat |
| 140s | system we it's not just like this one |
| 143s | solution fits all thing we see it as |
| 145s | very much as like a Learning Journey |
| 147s | it's a better way to put it so when |
| 149s | you're saying learn to learn to be like |
| 151s | an end game |
| 152s | hyper sweaty DPS pbmr that is a very |
| 157s | different question to brand new player |
| 159s | just learning the game yes |
| 161s | um |
| 163s | to be sweaty pvmo I'm not I'm not happy |
| 165s | with where our uh our learning is but |
| 169s | more kind of how the complexity surfaces |
| 172s | itself I think is the better way to put |
| 173s | it or the knowledge of those |
| 175s | complexities actually existing |
| 177s | like in terms of like what the game |
| 179s | actually provides you is much better |
| 180s | when you start going off |
| 187s | like don't don't even ask me just go to |
| 189s | the pvme Discord right because those |
| 190s | those channels are just absolutely and |
| 193s | to maybe expand on that a bit I think |
| 195s | the best resources specifically for |
| 198s | learning pdming in RuneScape are |
| 200s | external to the game and I think part of |
| 201s | that is you've got a fantastic community |
| 203s | of players that care a lot about the |
| 204s | game and are willing to put hundreds and |
| 206s | thousands of hours into you know helping |
| 208s | teach it and make it more accessible |
| 209s | that's one of the best things about |
| 211s | RuneScape but we've always had that |
| 213s | right the the external sites have always |
| 215s | been the best place to get it like |
| 217s | RuneScape has never |
| 219s | done a good job of teaching the |
| 222s | complexities of RuneScape not just pvm |
| 223s | the whole thing right because you go off |
| 225s | to like even back in the day you have to |
| 226s | like tip it for instance you wouldn't |
| 229s | get it yeah exactly you wouldn't get it |
| 231s | from from us and I think actually in |
| 234s | reality in 2022 we've integrated we've |
| 237s | got a Wiki on our website still handled |
| 239s | externally the our game actually links |
| 242s | to and actively links to if anything I'd |
| 244s | say 2020 is Uber in a better position |
| 245s | than we were years ago still not we're |
| 248s | still not still not perfect I don't |
| 250s | think it'll ever be perfect and I would |
| 252s | agree with you that there are resources |
| 253s | for those who want them or know that |
| 256s | they exist I think there is definitely |
| 257s | an issue there with many players will |
| 259s | never know that there's an existing |
| 261s | sub-community external to within the |
| 263s | game and it's sort of an issue of how |
| 266s | you go about teaching those people how |
| 268s | to play the game |
| 269s | um and I do think the pvme for example |
| 271s | if we're gonna you know get into that is |
| 273s | a fantastic resource |
| 275s | um but at the same time the existence or |
| 277s | the need for the pvme I think also so |
| 279s | you know potentially I I would make the |
| 281s | argument you could make the argument |
| 282s | that it shows a potential I don't even |
| 285s | want to say a failing but a lack of |
| 287s | intuitive learning tools within the game |
| 289s | because as soon as you want to get |
| 292s | decently good at anything your first |
| 294s | step is now to leave the game go |
| 296s | somewhere external and then you have to |
| 297s | read you have to research you have to |
| 299s | practice you have to implement it but |
| 300s | the question there is what is the game |
| 304s | responsible for teaching you because at |
| 307s | a certain point you reach this barrier |
| 309s | of meta which is |
| 312s | all the nuances in every game is like |
| 315s | this where you get to the nuances right |
| 318s | um that is not taught in any game you |
| 320s | teach |
| 321s | because certainly when we're teaching we |
| 322s | like to teach you the tool set |
| 325s | so we teach you the tools and let you go |
| 327s | to town and let the community own |
| 330s | from there and really so and another |
| 332s | question I might have maybe for you yeah |
| 335s | for sure is where is that meta barrier |
| 337s | where is the part where RuneScape should |
| 339s | stop teaching you should we teach you |
| 341s | all of those tiny little nuances every |
| 343s | little bit should is is the burden of |
| 345s | learning that on RuneScape or is it |
| 348s | something that should probably sit with |
| 349s | the community as the membership so I |
| 351s | think endgame matters absolutely I think |
| 354s | that is a perfect place for something |
| 356s | like the people encyclopedia I think for |
| 359s | me personally in sort of my you know my |
| 361s | background my experience I've been |
| 362s | teaching bosses for 10 years that's been |
| 364s | you know the my entire career started on |
| 366s | doing that and that is still something I |
| 368s | you know spend a lot of my time you know |
| 369s | interacting with the community and I |
| 371s | think the question I get the most is you |
| 373s | know how do I improve upon this how do I |
| 375s | do this and it's generally not end game |
| 377s | meta questions I think and for me what I |
| 379s | would say is from my perspective the |
| 382s | amount that is taught isn't as far as it |
| 384s | should be or it could be so I think you |
| 386s | can bring people further than you |
| 387s | currently are but I would totally agree |
| 389s | with you that there is a point that you |
| 391s | know you you you don't want to have an |
| 394s | Ever evolving Combat tutorial that |
| 395s | teaches you super specific tick |
| 397s | manipulation stuff just because you know |
| 399s | there's room for for that external and |
| 401s | once you get to the point where you're |
| 402s | ready to you know actually Implement |
| 404s | super super end game finer points you're |
| 407s | probably gonna be in a place where you |
| 408s | can go to the pvme and understand it and |
| 410s | and learn it there's a you may you raise |
| 413s | a couple good points there like between |
| 414s | yourself and John there's a nice split |
| 415s | in the we could do better at the early |
| 417s | game for sure like I think to be honest |
| 420s | if you right click you know the settings |
| 421s | Cog on your bar and say set up action |
| 423s | bar I'm pretty sure it gives you a |
| 424s | really bad bar right now it's just not |
| 426s | good we could do better at giving you a |
| 428s | bar and maybe even explaining like why |
| 429s | we've given you that bar so it's like |
| 431s | for example we say needle strike can be |
| 434s | used to you know enhance your snapshot |
| 436s | or whatever it shows you on the bar |
| 438s | um we could definitely be better there |
| 439s | so one of the interesting things that |
| 440s | you you both cover like the where is The |
| 442s | Meta line essentially |
| 444s | something that I find |
| 446s | um tricky is because people feel the |
| 450s | need to go and find information |
| 451s | externally a lot of the external |
| 452s | information is written by the experts |
| 454s | therefore it's not exactly beginner |
| 455s | friendly as well like it might be like |
| 457s | oh here is how you get into top game pvm |
| 459s | but then it will say things like our TC |
| 461s | this and do that and we'll like Target |
| 463s | cycling as an example is like not even |
| 465s | something we should talk about at a low |
| 466s | end I don't think but again as well like |
| 469s | people want to get perks right invention |
| 470s | is a whole different story to consider |
| 472s | and when you get into perks it's like |
| 474s | there are a lot of players out there for |
| 476s | what it's worth who just put any perks |
| 478s | in their items and it's good absolutely |
| 479s | and it's a huge barrier to entry as well |
| 481s | because if you want to get the best |
| 483s | perks you're probably finding out about |
| 484s | that external and then you've got the |
| 486s | perk calculator and it just it does get |
| 487s | very complicated very quickly yeah and |
| 489s | and I mean like just one of the perk |
| 491s | examples that to bring up is like P6 as1 |
| 494s | right the reason that that's always a |
| 496s | like without going into detail right we |
| 498s | talk about it but the reason that people |
| 499s | suggest that is because of offhands and |
| 501s | switches but then there are a lot of |
| 503s | players who won't care about the |
| 504s | switches so is PA p6as1 even relevant |
| 506s | maybe just P6 is relevant for example |
| 509s | um and I think there's a lot of |
| 510s | information that are high-end that as we |
| 513s | could do better for sure but I think as |
| 515s | well maybe we're not it's it's the |
| 517s | typical thing we hear with the same |
| 518s | problem when experts explain stuff you |
| 520s | think it's obvious but it's not like a |
| 522s | new player looks at 10 abilities 40 |
| 523s | perks seven sets a gear and they have no |
| 525s | clue what's going on um absolutely yeah |
| 527s | and I I think I'm an editor in the pdme |
| 530s | as well and one of the main focus points |
| 532s | they have and the thing they care about |
| 533s | the most there's a lot of interest in |
| 535s | the end game stuff but a lot of it's for |
| 537s | you know educational purposes people |
| 538s | want to see what the top end rotations |
| 540s | look like and how complex they are but |
| 542s | the majority of people in there are not |
| 544s | end game pvmers they've got 60 000 |
| 546s | members and it's predominantly beginners |
| 548s | and it's people who are trying to |
| 549s | improve so they even have a guide on how |
| 551s | to read the pvme because a lot of it is |
| 554s | so unintuitive and there's a there's a |
| 556s | strong focus on making it more beginner |
| 557s | friendly but I think the sentiment |
| 559s | within that Community within the |
| 561s | leadership is the game doesn't |
| 564s | necessarily do enough to get people to |
| 566s | the point where they can understand |
| 567s | basically RuneScape what important to if |
| 571s | you can point me to a game that does do |
| 572s | that right so we'll play an awful lot of |
| 575s | games you know it's spread between MMOs |
| 578s | mobas Etc |
| 580s | um a lot of getting good at those games |
| 582s | is learning how to use the tools that |
| 584s | you're given yourself right in my |
| 586s | opinion and this is obviously absolutely |
| 588s | so |
| 590s | I've looked at pvme and I look at I want |
| 592s | to do ratchet let's say right and I look |
| 593s | at a Rapture guy and I'm like it's all |
| 596s | there the good thing about bvme is it |
| 598s | does offer a couple mid-level mid-level |
| 600s | opportunities uh gear Loadout sets |
| 604s | um |
| 604s | but one thing we need to remember about |
| 606s | RuneScape is |
| 608s | you don't really get all those gear |
| 610s | upgrades upgrades at once right you get |
| 614s | one thing and then you go and do you |
| 615s | know whatever you're doing whether it's |
| 617s | uh vindictor or raksha or a raxor and |
| 620s | you slowly fold that new upgrade in you |
| 623s | slowly start to see how that sort of |
| 624s | comes to life and players are layering |
| 628s | these each upgrade bit by bit so you |
| 631s | know the next day they might get |
| 632s | Relentless and learn how to use |
| 633s | Relentless and fold that into their |
| 635s | rotation so I think there's a a big |
| 637s | misconception |
| 639s | about |
| 641s | um how difficult because how difficult |
| 643s | getting into pvm is because yes a lot of |
| 645s | people will look at various streamers |
| 648s | and how they're doing certain you know |
| 650s | we still look at |
| 651s | um speed kills and Rapture and think |
| 653s | we're like |
| 655s | what has happened what are they doing we |
| 656s | have to slow down a video to 0.25 to |
| 658s | figure out what switches they're doing |
| 662s | um but the in realistic terms players |
| 666s | just stagger |
| 668s | um gear upgrades and they learn how to |
| 669s | fold them in it's it's sort of how we |
| 671s | released it right so yeah the reason why |
| 674s | RuneScape is so complex at the end game |
| 677s | now is because it started off simple |
| 680s | with EOC but we were trying and like |
| 683s | this is thinking way back when but |
| 685s | basically when we made EOC |
| 688s | a lot of it was trying to |
| 691s | bring the RuneScape community on the |
| 693s | journey to kind of evolve from that |
| 696s | point that just click and weight system |
| 698s | to okay these now abilities these are |
| 700s | these are now cooldowns like all these |
| 702s | extra complex things but the RuneScape |
| 703s | Community grew with that and then the |
| 705s | Baseline moved so we got a little bit |
| 707s | more complex a little bit more complex |
| 708s | yeah um and that's certainly like how |
| 712s | items were released and because things |
| 713s | are released at the end game the |
| 715s | progression curve of brand new player |
| 718s | would hopefully it doesn't I know but |
| 720s | would hopefully kind of Follow that |
| 722s | learning as well so that layer of |
| 724s | complexity and teach a little bit more |
| 726s | learn how that thing works I think |
| 729s | one of the big things that we kind of |
| 731s | fight with |
| 732s | in terms of teaching a play is a |
| 734s | RuneScape player always wants to be the |
| 737s | best of the best |
| 738s | it's just ingrained in them they just |
| 740s | want to take shortcuts and then they get |
| 741s | straight to the end and if you try and |
| 742s | do that with a combat system |
| 745s | you're going to get overwhelmed very |
| 747s | well yeah |
| 748s | but if you and again going back to pvme |
| 751s | God they're going to get big heads after |
| 752s | this but |
| 753s | um there's a lot there's channels |
| 755s | specifically for learn this layer then |
| 758s | learn this layer then learn this layer |
| 759s | yeah but that's not what a RuneScape |
| 761s | player wants to do no everyone's got |
| 763s | player one and and actually uh it's not |
| 766s | how you're going to get into group |
| 767s | bossing either they just won't let you |
| 769s | in you'll get they'll stick them on a |
| 770s | DPS tracker and then they're like no no |
| 774s | um but the the idea of that they should |
| 776s | learn bit by bit the page in the people |
| 779s | me they hate the most is the upgrade |
| 781s | order one because |
| 783s | people want to know what's the next |
| 785s | thing to buy what's next invite what's |
| 786s | the best thing to buy what's the most |
| 787s | efficient next upgrade to buy and just |
| 789s | as an approach to a game that is |
| 791s | supposed to be fun it should be the |
| 793s | thing that entices you excites you that |
| 795s | would be fun to play around so they like |
| 797s | there's a lot of back and forth within |
| 798s | of like do we even want to display this |
| 800s | but anytime they get rid of it people |
| 802s | are asking I people need this people |
| 804s | definitely want to follow a tutorialized |
| 806s | yeah I think that's one thing that we |
| 809s | could vastly improve on is laying out |
| 812s | the stepping stones in the pvm journey a |
| 815s | lot better and I think that almost calls |
| 817s | back to what Ryan said earlier about you |
| 819s | know the bars that are provided and |
| 821s | maybe descriptions on hey this ability |
| 823s | works well with this it's not a this has |
| 825s | to be used with this it's a suggested |
| 827s | you know basic concept stuff that would |
| 829s | help a player that doesn't know anything |
| 831s | about the game build a basic ability |
| 833s | rotation they didn't fall back on sorry |
| 835s | the the interesting thing is when I made |
| 837s | that system and we made those bars we |
| 840s | deliberately made them rubbish |
| 842s | so and this is this is we've they've |
| 844s | been improved in time but we didn't |
| 845s | deliberately made them rubbish and we |
| 846s | made them rubbish because we wanted the |
| 848s | player to optimize themselves |
| 850s | we wanted the player to go oh if I if I |
| 853s | split this this will get better like |
| 854s | handing them the keys to the kingdom |
| 856s | immediately isn't always the best way |
| 857s | just makes them lazy and like because I |
| 860s | could I could hand you the best pvm |
| 862s | setup yep available right but you |
| 865s | haven't learned anything |
| 866s | and the reason why why we gave them to |
| 870s | deliberately rubbish bars was so that |
| 872s | they would kind of go oh if I move that |
| 874s | oh I get a bit more deeper oh oh that |
| 876s | works because it's to kind of push them |
| 878s | towards that Learning Journey so I and |
| 882s | we've gone back for others privately |
| 884s | before it's you I disagree with that |
| 885s | stance and the the main purpose of that |
| 887s | I actually don't think like logically I |
| 889s | think it's totally sound that you want |
| 891s | to get people focused on learning I |
| 893s | think the issue that a lot of newer |
| 895s | players have is they can't tell if this |
| 899s | ability moving in a different order has |
| 901s | made a significant impact on their |
| 902s | damage output whether it's tracking |
| 903s | whether it's analysis whether it's |
| 905s | intuitive you know feedback within the |
| 907s | game of hey this was good this you know |
| 909s | you combo disability right you got a |
| 911s | nice sound that played I don't think |
| 912s | there's enough in the game that leads |
| 913s | players to knowing what is better than |
| 915s | than everything else I think the biggest |
| 917s | thing we could be doing is giving the |
| 919s | players a combat log and showing all |
| 921s | this helper like there's a DPS in the |
| 924s | game it's a rune metrics prologue I |
| 927s | believe |
| 928s | um and it doesn't update perfectly |
| 930s | either it isn't perfect a combat log to |
| 933s | say hey your needle strike uh boosts the |
| 936s | damage of your snapshot by the X it's |
| 939s | something we're trying to push for as a |
| 941s | readable experience and for our players |
| 943s | to understand and that that had an |
| 945s | interaction with visibility and it made |
| 947s | it stronger is something you could |
| 948s | easily see and go okay now I know to |
| 951s | sort of combo and that is that is a |
| 954s | perfect example of of something that I |
| 956s | think I personally think the learning |
| 957s | experience for getting into pvm I think |
| 960s | it's one of the largest issues in the |
| 961s | game it's something it's the thing I get |
| 963s | asked about by far the most beyond |
| 965s | anything else is and I know I can speak |
| 967s | to the other high-level streamers as |
| 968s | well that do end game things it's just I |
| 971s | can't understand how you're doing that I |
| 973s | need breakdowns as that's what Kyle said |
| 975s | earlier about you know 0.25xing and |
| 977s | trying to get an understanding and I |
| 978s | think a little more hand-holding early |
| 980s | with yeah your needle strike boosted |
| 982s | your tendrils by x amount I think things |
| 984s | like that are absolutely huge for game |
| 986s | giving the player a feeling of |
| 989s | understanding you know what abilities do |
| 992s | in conjunction with each other well the |
| 994s | information is given right so not |
| 997s | entirely sometimes |
| 998s | yeah it's in tool tips which like but |
| 1001s | like when you play any other game |
| 1004s | um you want to know what your Champion |
| 1006s | does or your new character or your new |
| 1008s | class does so you you have to sort of |
| 1010s | read there's not like a tutorial where |
| 1014s | you know you have an NPC talking to you |
| 1015s | saying hey if you use needle strike with |
| 1017s | X then you get more damage like I can't |
| 1019s | I've been sitting here trying to think |
| 1021s | of games that do that I think one of the |
| 1022s | biggest problems of RuneScape is is |
| 1024s | because there's so much input there is |
| 1025s | actually so much the fact that you have |
| 1027s | access to three classes uh worth of |
| 1031s | abilities classes means uh attack style |
| 1034s | in in this case and you also have access |
| 1036s | to your 28 slots in your inventory which |
| 1039s | can be filled with items that can flick |
| 1041s | on give another effect there's so much |
| 1043s | input whereas you look at a lot of games |
| 1046s | now or older games |
| 1048s | um you know one of the the most recent |
| 1050s | examples was New World new world doesn't |
| 1053s | have a 12 |
| 1055s | slot action bar it has four core |
| 1057s | abilities League of Legends four core |
| 1059s | abilities in a pattern yeah I actually |
| 1061s | think there are too many abilities |
| 1062s | unlocked too early yeah or I say early |
| 1065s | it depends on what your classes early |
| 1066s | like 70 levels in our game nowadays is |
| 1068s | quick and to be honest I actually don't |
| 1069s | know the levels off top of my head but |
| 1070s | for example the amount of times I see |
| 1072s | people have bars they're in single |
| 1073s | combat and they're using like Ricochet |
| 1075s | like normal Ricochet or they're using |
| 1077s | piercing shut all the time but piercing |
| 1079s | shot credit if I'm wrong is irrelevant |
| 1080s | unless you're binding shot really like |
| 1082s | um I mean for damage wise yes yeah it |
| 1084s | would be you'd be better off needle |
| 1085s | striking or something else yeah or |
| 1086s | tuskers around you know that and I think |
| 1088s | that of course task needs to be unlocked |
| 1090s | but I think that at its core |
| 1092s | we give you obviously like Basics sorry |
| 1095s | we give you not literally basic |
| 1097s | abilities like we give you I could think |
| 1099s | of a better simple abilities |
| 1101s | um we give you like stuns Roots we give |
| 1103s | you the some channeled abilities we give |
| 1105s | you AOE abilities of bleed yeah and I |
| 1107s | think that |
| 1108s | maybe we need less because it's at a |
| 1110s | high end that you start like it's only |
| 1112s | recently you know like Deadshot became |
| 1113s | more relevant because of the cape which |
| 1115s | we purposely did or Brad did um and I |
| 1118s | just think that yeah learning early the |
| 1120s | amount of times someone says hey I'm |
| 1121s | struggling and they show your bar and |
| 1123s | they're fragging not walking they're |
| 1124s | ricocheting single Target it's not great |
| 1126s | Ricochet so you know and there's a they |
| 1129s | don't know any better and we don't help |
| 1130s | them understand that like |
| 1132s | um Sponge is Brad sponge yeah you can do |
| 1135s | it |
| 1136s | um has spoke a lot about you want to |
| 1137s | talk about keywording like this is I was |
| 1139s | gonna go on to this so when Carl brought |
| 1141s | up I will give you the information we |
| 1142s | don't you look at something like |
| 1144s | dismember it says oh I do 18 to 94 |
| 1148s | damage that doesn't mean anything |
| 1149s | because it's not doing that because it's |
| 1151s | not doing the same damage as a slice |
| 1153s | would do yeah because it's not applying |
| 1155s | Buffs it's not playing on here we don't |
| 1157s | give you that information |
| 1158s | um absolutely so yeah a big thing I want |
| 1160s | to do is keyword all the tool tips so |
| 1163s | that like if I go and dismember it says |
| 1165s | bleed I can hold the bleed it says okay |
| 1166s | what's this oh it doesn't apply Buffs oh |
| 1169s | it doesn't apply on hit effects that way |
| 1171s | I've all that information and a new |
| 1173s | player they're not going to go oh |
| 1174s | dismember this is the best ability it's |
| 1176s | doing more damage than this even though |
| 1177s | it's really not yeah no I think there's |
| 1179s | a a consistency issue where certain |
| 1181s | things work with other things and in |
| 1183s | such a complex way that yeah it isn't |
| 1186s | easily communicatable but because it's |
| 1187s | not there you can actually lead people |
| 1190s | astray and to your point you can lead |
| 1192s | people into doing sub-optimal things |
| 1194s | that they think are optimal based on the |
| 1195s | information given to them and I think |
| 1197s | that's the problem too no I do agree |
| 1199s | with that and and we you know we have |
| 1200s | discussed it at length by having a |
| 1202s | glossary and keywording |
| 1204s | um a lot of other games have |
| 1207s | um they have a very clear |
| 1209s | set of terms that when you read it you |
| 1212s | know that it is doing what what it's |
| 1214s | doing we do need to become a little bit |
| 1215s | more consistent with |
| 1217s | um you know Brad might make one reward |
| 1219s | that goes through the combat system |
| 1221s | whereas I might make one reward that |
| 1223s | bypasses the compet system to just do |
| 1225s | damage but we we would call it look at |
| 1228s | something like great a greater barge |
| 1230s | belief and I believe they are completely |
| 1231s | different yes when just looking at |
| 1234s | someone doing a stream you say oh it's |
| 1236s | the same thing they're doing the same |
| 1237s | thing it's also the same animation too |
| 1238s | right it is the exact same animation |
| 1240s | under the hood they're completely |
| 1241s | different you can still do that so like |
| 1243s | mine would be called true damage and his |
| 1245s | would be called ability damage and that |
| 1247s | if we can keep going down that path of |
| 1249s | of keywording and having a glossary |
| 1251s | that's understandable then when a tool |
| 1254s | tip comes out that says hey this does |
| 1257s | 4K true damage the player you can check |
| 1260s | within the game and figure out what true |
| 1262s | damage is and how it works there is a |
| 1265s | big flip we should talk about here which |
| 1266s | is more information isn't necessarily |
| 1268s | better right like information is just |
| 1269s | text because we you know we did ability |
| 1271s | tool tip rewording recently now again |
| 1274s | some of them aren't entirely correct but |
| 1276s | we tried to like narrow it down to be |
| 1277s | more specifically yeah |
| 1283s | yeah I mean but but the the thing to |
| 1286s | note is that like there are a lot of |
| 1287s | people like we could talk you know |
| 1289s | you're a big pvm and we'll be we're all |
| 1291s | big like combat people here there are |
| 1292s | people who don't have that much of an |
| 1293s | interest in combat like think about |
| 1294s | combat is I'm not gonna like eight |
| 1296s | skills in the whole game some animal |
| 1299s | love |
| 1300s | um |
| 1301s | um and there are plenty of people who |
| 1302s | just want to slay because they want a |
| 1304s | level Slayer for other reasons and |
| 1306s | because of that they don't read the |
| 1307s | abilities and that's perfectly fine also |
| 1309s | we talk about DPS tracker there are |
| 1310s | plenty of people who don't wouldn't even |
| 1312s | know what a good number is you know like |
| 1313s | 100k DPM this is great like you know |
| 1316s | other players back now it's 500k it's a |
| 1317s | million |
| 1318s | um so more information is good for those |
| 1321s | who read but for those who don't it |
| 1323s | doesn't help anyone yeah and I think |
| 1324s | that's where you're like there's a lot |
| 1325s | of vision you know |
| 1327s | yeah and like |
| 1330s | I think we said this before we're |
| 1331s | rolling um but like as examples of if |
| 1334s | you could go somewhere in game it's kind |
| 1336s | of what the combat Academy tried to do |
| 1337s | before I can't remember how combat |
| 1338s | Academy worked there is a degree of |
| 1341s | need some visual understanding of what's |
| 1343s | going on like if I was like you said |
| 1344s | it's not this straightforward I'm sure |
| 1346s | but if I was to needle strike and |
| 1347s | snapshot being told great job you know |
| 1350s | that's one of the best suggested |
| 1351s | abilities to follow a needle strike |
| 1353s | um and then maybe telling you if you've |
| 1355s | used piercing shot five times for |
| 1356s | example and they're Never Bound during |
| 1357s | those five times maybe tell you it |
| 1359s | wasn't a great idea like okay but sticky |
| 1362s | keys yeah too many times but on that |
| 1364s | point how like let's say we introduce a |
| 1368s | new threshold down the line |
| 1370s | where snapshot is no longer the best to |
| 1373s | use after |
| 1374s | Neil's right right that's a lot of |
| 1376s | overhead for us to calculate and go I |
| 1379s | think you abstract it up right so you |
| 1381s | have |
| 1381s | keyword interactions yeah yeah but but |
| 1385s | for us to say hey oh great job I mean I |
| 1387s | guess you could say you're not saying |
| 1388s | this is the best threshold after doing |
| 1391s | snapshot you want to use a strong |
| 1393s | hitting ability after a snap yeah it is |
| 1396s | it does get really complicated though |
| 1398s | and subjective because what you said |
| 1399s | about piercing shot |
| 1401s | if you care about raw damage you know it |
| 1403s | depends on what you're caring about and |
| 1404s | in that moment needle striking |
| 1407s | for example Ricochet greater Ricochet |
| 1409s | versus need a strike and tendril just |
| 1411s | need a strike in snapshot we could just |
| 1412s | say oh you did a damaging ability next |
| 1414s | and it is not one of the worst damaging |
| 1417s | abilities therefore tell you it's okay |
| 1418s | it didn't fall into a trap yeah |
| 1420s | um but yeah it is there is an argument |
| 1423s | of we would fall into the same problem |
| 1424s | we have with action bars in that we we |
| 1426s | give you action bars and you as a player |
| 1428s | look at them go well they're trash now |
| 1429s | and that's because the games evolve and |
| 1430s | we haven't updated them to include all |
| 1432s | the upgraded abilities and stuff so yeah |
| 1434s | it's tricky because to do it well it's a |
| 1438s | for the most part is something we have |
| 1440s | to keep on top of like we have to evolve |
| 1441s | it and something these guys mention |
| 1443s | which is a very very strong design Point |
| 1445s | you'll notice if you ask any designer we |
| 1447s | we focus on designing tools rather than |
| 1449s | designing like the specific way to use |
| 1452s | them like here is a bucket it's a really |
| 1454s | good reference someone uh who worked on |
| 1455s | cfes talked about they just made a |
| 1456s | bucket and said you can fill up with |
| 1457s | water and let you do what you want with |
| 1458s | it |
| 1459s | um so we make an ability |
| 1461s | that sounds interesting and let players |
| 1463s | figure out what's best for it we don't |
| 1465s | necessarily go oh we're going to make |
| 1466s | this ability to synergize with XYZ we do |
| 1468s | sometimes but yeah quite quite often |
| 1470s | when we design an ability it will fall |
| 1472s | into a meta so when we designed greater |
| 1474s | Ricochet we pushed it into prop pushing |
| 1478s | which is I think because of on hits |
| 1479s | though because of on hit effects in |
| 1480s | range right that was the reason why we |
| 1482s | originally did the thing it did so quite |
| 1484s | often when we designed something we will |
| 1486s | kind of loosely fit it into the meta but |
| 1489s | you don't have a specific disability is |
| 1491s | designed to be used like omnipower was |
| 1494s | not specifically made to be used with |
| 1496s | greater chain it was designed to be a |
| 1498s | stronger no yeah chain is a perfect |
| 1500s | example of it it's just a tool it was |
| 1501s | just like hey Woods made and yeah like |
| 1504s | they use it eventually yeah wouldn't it |
| 1506s | be cool abilities and then yeah players |
| 1509s | like you say Zuck perfect example I |
| 1510s | think to be honest when I did that exact |
| 1512s | mechanic you told me to move them in |
| 1513s | closer to make it work but but yeah like |
| 1516s | it's also good for us so this is off |
| 1518s | topic but it's good for us as designers |
| 1520s | when |
| 1521s | something about EOC this is great is |
| 1523s | that it's evolved since the beginning |
| 1525s | you know like we can be honest it wasn't |
| 1527s | great when it first started but to be |
| 1529s | where it is now I'd say we made like |
| 1530s | huge strides it's in a really good place |
| 1532s | you know there are always going to be |
| 1534s | issues but we've got to such a good |
| 1536s | place because of working with the |
| 1538s | players like oh you know this ability |
| 1540s | sucks okay so what do we consider we |
| 1541s | consider boosting the ability making |
| 1543s | items that boost it or making a greater |
| 1546s | version or whatever and we we work with |
| 1548s | the players to Define what is |
| 1550s | essentially their combat you know we |
| 1552s | don't dictate it we work with you guys |
| 1554s | um so yeah we make some of the issues as |
| 1556s | well like we make switchscape more of an |
| 1559s | issue if we want to talk about melee and |
| 1560s | stuff but yeah yeah that's probably a |
| 1562s | little technical for for what we're |
| 1564s | getting at right now but I I don't |
| 1566s | disagree with you there that there's |
| 1567s | definitely it wouldn't be reasonable to |
| 1570s | design something and already have baked |
| 1571s | into the game this is where this should |
| 1573s | be used this is going to be the metaphor |
| 1574s | this ability and I think yeah you have |
| 1577s | to find the line of how much information |
| 1579s | is good to provide you you don't want to |
| 1582s | give too much you'd want to give not |
| 1583s | enough and I think the opportunity or |
| 1585s | the option as well I think is good too |
| 1587s | because I think if there was somewhere |
| 1588s | in game where to what Kyle said earlier |
| 1590s | where you can see what true damage is I |
| 1592s | think that would be huge because I know |
| 1594s | a number of players would use that and |
| 1596s | actually want to learn and understand it |
| 1598s | I think the extra step and the barrier |
| 1600s | having to go somewhere external and then |
| 1602s | try and control F and look for the thing |
| 1604s | you're looking for I think that to me I |
| 1607s | think inhibits a lot of people's |
| 1608s | learning experience yeah I have a |
| 1610s | question for you absolutely hit monks |
| 1612s | hit Splats whatever you want to call |
| 1614s | them |
| 1615s | how um what's good refreshing is so at |
| 1617s | the moment we represent we show ability |
| 1619s | damage we show Auto attacks slightly |
| 1623s | differently yeah um we show Crips we |
| 1626s | show what is yours and what isn't yes |
| 1629s | do you think that I'm trying to be a |
| 1630s | good way of phrasing it how do you feel |
| 1632s | about the current hitmont system do you |
| 1633s | think it could be better to represent |
| 1634s | any of this or help with this |
| 1636s | um so for example I'll say I don't think |
| 1638s | that's one of the biggest issues in |
| 1639s | terms of learnability readability I |
| 1641s | think hit marker is disappearing in |
| 1643s | large groups and only seeing a certain |
| 1645s | number and you know other people being |
| 1647s | able to override yours I think is fairly |
| 1649s | significant do I think if bleeds had a |
| 1652s | different hit marker it would be easier |
| 1653s | to tell oh here's a good example in a |
| 1655s | group pvm situation if I Chuck a massive |
| 1658s | bleed and then you do yours just clears |
| 1660s | mine and that's not listed anywhere to |
| 1662s | my knowledge that's a really huge one |
| 1664s | that you know leads players into falling |
| 1665s | into a trap and I think if that bleed |
| 1667s | was displayed differently if hit spots |
| 1670s | were a little more streamlined I think |
| 1671s | you'd be able to say oh my bleed is gone |
| 1673s | now and someone else's bleed is there |
| 1675s | and then I mean even then that's not |
| 1677s | intuitive enough in my opinion I have |
| 1679s | more needs to be done with that you'd be |
| 1681s | hard pushed to find someone that doesn't |
| 1682s | think our current belief system isn't |
| 1684s | poorly designed it falls into a design |
| 1686s | trap known as burden of knowledge where |
| 1688s | you kind of you you need to know |
| 1691s | something in order to use it well yes so |
| 1693s | you have a burden of knowledge and |
| 1695s | that's not a good that's not a good |
| 1697s | thing in game design right things should |
| 1699s | be more intuitive |
| 1700s | um and certainly I think we've spoken |
| 1702s | about redesigning bleeds how many times |
| 1704s | over the years it's not necessarily it's |
| 1707s | essentially a fix to |
| 1713s | yeah that Tech limitation isn't there we |
| 1716s | can't even argue yeah like back on the |
| 1719s | point of hit my I think hit marks are so |
| 1721s | crucial to to games |
| 1724s | um a couple games I can think of the the |
| 1726s | bigger your hit the bigger the hit Mark |
| 1728s | is displayed and it pops up and it sort |
| 1730s | of does a shake and your lower bits of |
| 1732s | damage or you know they just appear for |
| 1734s | a little bit and it's off and that all |
| 1736s | ties into |
| 1738s | feeling right yeah and it goes back to |
| 1740s | what we were saying earlier is like if |
| 1742s | you did your needle strike and then you |
| 1744s | snapshotted boom big hit it's displayed |
| 1747s | larger so there |
| 1749s | we're not necessarily necessarily saying |
| 1751s | hey we need you to go into your tool |
| 1754s | tips and read how this works but instead |
| 1756s | of visual indicator of oh I use these |
| 1758s | two abilities together and boom and big |
| 1760s | hit appears on the screen you then know |
| 1762s | that oh hang on I did an interaction |
| 1765s | there that made my thing here or a crit |
| 1767s | appear it's a it's a little dopamine |
| 1770s | exactly exactly we're doing the right |
| 1772s | thing it's important and it's reward |
| 1773s | systems yeah it's how you design pretty |
| 1775s | much at every teaching tool touching on |
| 1777s | the dopamine stuff if you can make |
| 1779s | things feel great like a subtle camera |
| 1782s | shake and you make that camera shape |
| 1784s | bigger the bigger you hit that's you you |
| 1787s | actually understand what is going on and |
| 1790s | can start to string these things |
| 1791s | together and to me that's one of the big |
| 1793s | things that the game doesn't do enough |
| 1795s | of |
| 1797s | and I think it makes combat very it |
| 1799s | makes it a lot more intuitive if systems |
| 1801s | like that are in place or even you know |
| 1803s | if you make the needle strike bonus |
| 1804s | damage a separate hit |
| 1806s | so they can see how big that number is |
| 1808s | and not saying that's necessarily the |
| 1810s | way to do it but they can see their |
| 1811s | bonus damage the the trouble with Buffs |
| 1814s | in RuneScape is there's so many layers |
| 1816s | like think think about when you're being |
| 1818s | high proficient how many things layered |
| 1821s | on top of each other you're doing to |
| 1823s | make that one hit just that bigger like |
| 1825s | yeah you are what so you've got 77. and |
| 1831s | like you want to have them all as |
| 1833s | separate hits or like sub hits or do you |
| 1835s | know what I mean or even no I mean it |
| 1837s | would be ridiculous yeah I was literally |
| 1839s | just sitting there thinking like it was |
| 1840s | buffed by it goes through and it's true |
| 1842s | no I was thinking just specific two |
| 1844s | abilities interacting with each other |
| 1846s | because I think that's something we're |
| 1847s | talking about layering on things I think |
| 1850s | that's the base layer is abilities |
| 1851s | themselves raw abilities you're not |
| 1853s | messing with special attacks you're not |
| 1854s | messing with tick manipulation you're |
| 1856s | not messing with switch game it's just |
| 1857s | raw abilities that interact with each |
| 1859s | other in a positive way yeah no ability |
| 1861s | to use a good starting point because |
| 1863s | yeah just thinking about it you've |
| 1865s | obviously got prayer as and then |
| 1867s | everything else to account for but yeah |
| 1869s | if it's purely abilities you definitely |
| 1871s | move in a better place but again the |
| 1874s | curse like the double-edged sword more |
| 1876s | information on screen is not necessarily |
| 1877s | better right so if like suddenly we go |
| 1879s | from having six hit marks right now |
| 1880s | let's just say we double that and make |
| 1882s | 12 hit marks displayed |
| 1884s | I mean sure high level players are |
| 1885s | awesome and then low-level players and |
| 1887s | group fights are like what is going on |
| 1888s | you know like |
| 1889s | um I think I mean I'm gonna reference |
| 1891s | something and you guys can let me know |
| 1892s | if you've seen it or haven't there's a |
| 1893s | video made by a channel called project |
| 1894s | combat and they basically spent a full |
| 1897s | hour um I don't know if you guys are |
| 1899s | familiar with it going over a lot of the |
| 1901s | reasons why combat is difficult to learn |
| 1904s | in RuneScape 3 and it's a fantastic |
| 1905s | video and a lot of it is it outlines a |
| 1909s | lot of the inconsistencies and a lot of |
| 1911s | the interactions that aren't intuitive |
| 1912s | or aren't properly you know communicated |
| 1914s | with in the game and I think one of the |
| 1916s | major you know gripes at that it's it's |
| 1918s | even stuff like audio design and sounds |
| 1920s | where certain things hit four times and |
| 1922s | you hear three sounds or and and to your |
| 1925s | point into what caused earlier |
| 1927s | big hit good interaction extra sound |
| 1930s | exactly that's immediately makes the |
| 1932s | learning experience easier because it's |
| 1933s | organic the player is getting better at |
| 1936s | the game while just playing it yeah I |
| 1938s | completely agree I think I I do |
| 1940s | personally believe |
| 1942s | this is obviously just my opinion that |
| 1945s | we could solve all this through Visual |
| 1948s | visual aid not having to go into the |
| 1950s | game and have the player open up an |
| 1952s | interface whilst I do like I think the |
| 1954s | key word is the gloss and the glossary |
| 1955s | is separate to this yeah so that is good |
| 1958s | but a combat log is important for us to |
| 1960s | have but once we have those it's the it |
| 1963s | is the interactions when you use wild |
| 1965s | magic one while magic as an app is is |
| 1967s | arguably the best looking ability and |
| 1970s | feel ability in the game it feels |
| 1972s | powerful |
| 1973s | now if that is let's say there's an |
| 1975s | ability that that combos with and you do |
| 1977s | that and a a camera Shake happens or a |
| 1981s | bigger camera Shake happens or a spot at |
| 1982s | him happens on the on the opposing NPC |
| 1985s | to show that an interaction has taken |
| 1986s | place that is a visual aid that I can |
| 1989s | start learning about and and from there |
| 1991s | where do I take it do I then read the |
| 1993s | ability oh what what happened there yeah |
| 1995s | read the ability and then go from there |
| 1997s | that's that's a much better certainly |
| 1998s | when we've made our combat tutorials in |
| 2001s | the past like so |
| 2004s | a a good example is um combat Academy |
| 2007s | right so when I made combat Academy I |
| 2009s | had an awful lot of things to teach |
| 2011s | like a lot of Basics to teach and at no |
| 2014s | point did we ever want to throw a player |
| 2016s | at a wall of text which is why the |
| 2019s | combat Academy was you being a TA |
| 2022s | helping someone you go through because |
| 2024s | we also had to had like to break a |
| 2027s | fourth wall yes you can't you can't have |
| 2029s | an NPC in game talking about abilities |
| 2031s | and cooldowns and I think we ended up |
| 2033s | doing it with Lady Death nail a bit but |
| 2034s | like these really like UI level things |
| 2038s | that we need to explain |
| 2041s | um |
| 2042s | it's hard to do it's it's it's it's |
| 2043s | really hard to do as as a game because |
| 2046s | at the end of the day a game should be |
| 2047s | fun and what's less fun than reading |
| 2049s | through reading some text so I think |
| 2050s | these systems need to need to exist and |
| 2053s | we need to kind of soft soft promote |
| 2056s | good behavior yeah I I think it's it's |
| 2058s | immensely important as well |
| 2060s | um |
| 2061s | I have a question for you yeah |
| 2064s | um so we could talk about some abilities |
| 2066s | that you cancel early right purposely at |
| 2068s | high end |
| 2070s | um snipe or whatever else concentrate |
| 2072s | blast Maybe I don't Mage rapid fire |
| 2074s | regular con rapid fire I mean assault |
| 2077s | yeah |
| 2078s | so yeah yeah so so something really |
| 2081s | interesting about that which I'd be |
| 2082s | interested in your thoughts are actually |
| 2085s | one what do you think about it first |
| 2086s | then I'll give you my so those I see is |
| 2089s | less of an issue I think it is info that |
| 2091s | is not displayed in game it is also in |
| 2093s | most cases a save of One Singular game |
| 2095s | tick so if someone is do oh go ahead but |
| 2099s | do you think that information should be |
| 2100s | shared in game you should can't you |
| 2102s | should cancel the last hit of this |
| 2104s | ability to get the most out of DPM I |
| 2109s | think in a perfect world yes and |
| 2113s | in counseling actually |
| 2114s | I think okay actually I would walk that |
| 2117s | back a little bit I think it depends on |
| 2119s | how it's displayed in the game I think I |
| 2122s | I think a lot of players learn how to |
| 2124s | cancel assault early because they |
| 2125s | realized if you hit your destroy you |
| 2128s | still see the next assault hit spot you |
| 2130s | can visually see that you're still |
| 2131s | getting that fourth hit even though you |
| 2132s | hit another ability so and to me that is |
| 2135s | intuitive enough that it's like it's |
| 2138s | clear that you're getting that extra hit |
| 2139s | Splat and that canceling it didn't lose |
| 2141s | you anything I think it's more of an |
| 2144s | audio visual I think thing where if |
| 2147s | that's displayed properly I think that's |
| 2148s | great I think listing it and being like |
| 2150s | you should cancel this early no that |
| 2152s | doesn't make if we ever put that in we |
| 2153s | should just make that the way that we |
| 2155s | should make it yeah no just shorten the |
| 2156s | ability absolutely the reason I ask is |
| 2160s | because I'm naming a few games like |
| 2161s | naming like Super Smash Bros I mean if |
| 2163s | you talk to anyone who plays smash |
| 2165s | they'll tell you about how being frame |
| 2166s | perfect for things |
| 2167s | um League of Legends any of your your |
| 2169s | good games |
| 2171s | um they my animation canceling becomes |
| 2174s | it is the skill difference between like |
| 2176s | let's just say an average player and it |
| 2177s | is your skill ceiling right |
| 2179s | um and from a design point of view a lot |
| 2181s | of those cases are you could argue |
| 2183s | they're bugs like it's never intentional |
| 2185s | but it makes |
| 2187s | the skill ceiling go up when you can |
| 2189s | like Master you feel like a true master |
| 2191s | so they have become I would argue |
| 2192s | they've become a normal part of games |
| 2194s | like yes they might have been a bug but |
| 2195s | they just get left because they add to |
| 2198s | the thing like there's a yeah think |
| 2200s | about League of Legends as an example |
| 2201s | there is a champion whose entire kit you |
| 2203s | just animation cancel the entire time |
| 2205s | and there is a such a significant |
| 2206s | difference between that and I think |
| 2208s | that's okay like your average player can |
| 2210s | snipe like normal and like you say miss |
| 2211s | one tick it's not a significant enough |
| 2214s | buff that it's like this has to be |
| 2215s | communicated I think for the little |
| 2216s | things that give you a percent hero |
| 2218s | percent there I think that's fine to be |
| 2220s | a part of the skill ceiling I think it's |
| 2221s | just getting the player closer to that |
| 2225s | um that is that is where the most kind |
| 2227s | of work needs to be done |
| 2229s | um if I'm if I can switch gears ever so |
| 2232s | slightly to the display of information |
| 2236s | on gear weapons armor that is another |
| 2239s | thing that I think is is quite |
| 2240s | problematic because let's look at the |
| 2242s | tier 85 |
| 2244s | um Heller wand orb |
| 2245s | they are tier 80 accurate sorry tier 80 |
| 2248s | damage they are tier 90 accuracy |
| 2251s | that's not displayed it's just listed as |
| 2253s | tier 85 and then you've got the raw |
| 2254s | number that you would actually have to |
| 2255s | plug into the wiki to see what tier it |
| 2257s | actually was and then you've got the |
| 2259s | interaction of wait all of your accuracy |
| 2262s | comes from your main hand and therefore |
| 2263s | the cyware offend is literally a vertice |
| 2266s | book |
| 2267s | in every functional way but it's |
| 2270s | displayed as a tier 85 versus a tier 80. |
| 2272s | and I think that also leads people I |
| 2274s | don't think these people astray but in |
| 2276s | the last few years there's been an |
| 2277s | influx of weapons that are have a tier |
| 2279s | but with a different accuracy and a |
| 2280s | different damage and bonus of X and I |
| 2282s | think that isn't problematic with regard |
| 2285s | to design but I think with regard to |
| 2288s | display of information the the other one |
| 2290s | I'd say there too is I believe it's |
| 2291s | still Auto attack damage that's |
| 2292s | displayed for legacy mode and the amount |
| 2296s | of people I mean if you look at the |
| 2297s | prices of dragors I believe the best dry |
| 2299s | Gore currently like objectively would be |
| 2301s | the mace because it does the same damage |
| 2303s | as the others and it's got prayer bonus |
| 2304s | for most players is the cheapest because |
| 2306s | if you hover over the tooltip it says it |
| 2308s | does lower damage it doesn't actually |
| 2310s | but it and and I think things like that |
| 2313s | mislead people in a huge huge way across |
| 2315s | the board where they don't feel |
| 2317s | comfortable making a good purchase |
| 2318s | decision but that just to clarify it's |
| 2320s | that because I'm trying to remember yeah |
| 2322s | the damage is lower because it's based |
| 2325s | on tax speeds it's based on attack speed |
| 2326s | that's not relevant which is not |
| 2328s | evolution of combat it's not abilities |
| 2331s | normalized around rape Force yeah |
| 2333s | four ticks yeah that's right faster |
| 2335s | Point there's there's yeah |
| 2338s | was it mud jack who just wanted to |
| 2340s | replace all numbers with tier numbers |
| 2342s | I'm not sure I I this has been floated a |
| 2345s | while where you just say tier 90. I I |
| 2347s | hate that but I hate yeah it's just real |
| 2350s | numbers because they flow through the |
| 2351s | system right like just just show the |
| 2354s | ability damage they're giving out if |
| 2356s | we're not using attack speed like we're |
| 2357s | not currently in the system like attack |
| 2358s | speed doesn't matter right now yeah it |
| 2360s | might as well be removed yeah right now |
| 2362s | I think it should just say ability |
| 2363s | damage yeah |
| 2365s | um as well there's a different route |
| 2367s | there where I think we should have Auto |
| 2369s | attacks do more and actually have them |
| 2370s | mean something but we'll get into that |
| 2372s | later |
| 2373s | um |
| 2374s | especially for like the wand |
| 2377s | it shouldn't it shouldn't say tier 95 it |
| 2380s | should say I have a damage value of this |
| 2382s | I have an accuracy value of this they're |
| 2384s | the abilities and then if we want to |
| 2386s | show the tier don't show the tier just |
| 2388s | show the level two equip it's the equip |
| 2390s | level Elder Rune is the same thing right |
| 2391s | Elder room exactly they're level 90s but |
| 2394s | they're I believe they're like 83 or 84 |
| 2396s | with regards as bad because melee shows |
| 2400s | still shows a damage to that where I |
| 2402s | don't believe magic shows any damage to |
| 2404s | that at all because it's spelled this |
| 2405s | well yeah you've got the addition of |
| 2406s | yeah with magic and range it's even more |
| 2408s | complicated because it's added up with |
| 2410s | your ammo that's equipped and everything |
| 2411s | else and it becomes complicated for a |
| 2413s | player to figure out what's actually |
| 2414s | better than better than other things |
| 2416s | yeah so Matt so with magic especially we |
| 2418s | should say okay this is our damage level |
| 2420s | and then you can go in your book and |
| 2421s | anything that's above or at that damage |
| 2424s | level you'll know you're going to get |
| 2425s | that amount yes um I mean that's been |
| 2427s | recently changing the tool tips I don't |
| 2429s | know if that was one that you did but um |
| 2430s | or one of the people sitting here but |
| 2432s | now when you hover over a spell it says |
| 2434s | this will scale up to tier |
| 2441s | it's just a visual thing that scuffed |
| 2444s | big combat interface yes but right now |
| 2447s | when you when when you hover over a |
| 2449s | weapon they're just getting ridiculous |
| 2450s | um because there's so much information |
| 2452s | being shown you can't draw out what you |
| 2454s | need and yeah half of it is useless |
| 2456s | information like you have you have the |
| 2458s | damage the level the accuracy the damage |
| 2462s | style where it's Crush stab or slash |
| 2465s | which again which also doesn't matter |
| 2466s | almost everywhere it doesn't matter |
| 2467s | right now |
| 2468s | um again we should make that matter in |
| 2470s | mind weaknesses yeah don't yeah that |
| 2472s | that system just needs to change I think |
| 2474s | that doesn't matter right now because we |
| 2475s | want to go away from Hit chance right |
| 2477s | yes if you look at look at what |
| 2479s | following a true weakness does which |
| 2481s | doesn't really matter on bosses yes if |
| 2483s | you look what it actually does it has a |
| 2484s | huge huge yeah so accuracy that's |
| 2487s | another thing that I think also has to |
| 2489s | be Googled because I know a number of |
| 2490s | players if you're new to the game or |
| 2492s | playing organically monster specific |
| 2493s | weakness intuitively means I'm gonna do |
| 2496s | more damage and that's not what it does |
| 2498s | at all there is zero impact on your |
| 2499s | damage at all so you'll see people using |
| 2501s | like Earth Spells at certain monsters |
| 2503s | with Earth and they're not doing any |
| 2504s | more damage they're just wasting more |
| 2505s | minutes and I think that's something too |
| 2508s | it's a communication thing for for a lot |
| 2510s | of this that it's does this matter is |
| 2512s | this important in photo display and then |
| 2514s | how do you display it in a way that the |
| 2515s | player can understand if they need this |
| 2517s | or not but John was saying um we want to |
| 2520s | move away from Hitch on several of us do |
| 2522s | um obviously it's a big thing but what |
| 2524s | that does mean is then |
| 2526s | what is the better way to do this system |
| 2527s | because you don't just want to delete it |
| 2529s | and leave nothing there right because |
| 2530s | there's always accuracy does not |
| 2532s | actually in defense it's like yeah |
| 2534s | exactly yeah for sure |
| 2536s | um and it's whether do we go towards |
| 2537s | that more intuitive route where okay I'm |
| 2541s | using Earth as well again so I'm doing |
| 2542s | more damage now does everything have a |
| 2544s | base level of damage reduction and then |
| 2546s | you actually actually just bring that |
| 2547s | down |
| 2548s | um I think we should look into something |
| 2550s | more like that because the current |
| 2552s | system is just unenjoyable I think yeah |
| 2554s | if only we had something I finally we |
| 2556s | had something on our Internal |
| 2557s | Documentation |
| 2558s | [Music] |
| 2561s | well we'll fix in post I'll fix in |
| 2563s | person yeah in relation to you know |
| 2566s | we're talking about all these things |
| 2567s | that probably aren't good enough with |
| 2569s | regard to teaching pvm or could be |
| 2571s | improved or maybe should be improved I |
| 2573s | think a follow-up question there that |
| 2575s | you know might be tough to answer is |
| 2577s | is there any kind of plan to look at |
| 2580s | this as it's you know it clearly is an |
| 2583s | issue |
| 2584s | um combat learnability overall intuitive |
| 2587s | baking more things into the game helping |
| 2589s | new players learn the the combat system |
| 2591s | because it's clear just based on this |
| 2592s | discussion it's a problem and it's |
| 2595s | important I think officially there's |
| 2597s | nothing |
| 2599s | written into the schedule but it's |
| 2601s | always something that we're wanting to |
| 2603s | that you would like to be pushing for |
| 2604s | it's just fitting into the schedule |
| 2606s | right because there's a whole game we |
| 2607s | need to look after it's not just this |
| 2609s | and I I think like plenty of other |
| 2612s | places in the game they'd want to attack |
| 2614s | these sorts of issues |
| 2616s | um so we're we're all pushing for it |
| 2619s | right constantly I mean you've got |
| 2620s | people like sponge who are doing like |
| 2622s | you know the keyword glossary stuff yeah |
| 2624s | and I'm super interested in in hit marks |
| 2627s | and you've got myself pushing it on the |
| 2629s | engine side to improve our hitmark |
| 2631s | system because it's just the tool set |
| 2632s | just isn't good but I'd I'd love to |
| 2636s | provide better onboarding it's something |
| 2637s | that we were looking at doing so when we |
| 2639s | made the berthorpe tutorial the post the |
| 2642s | post tutorial tutorial yes yeah |
| 2646s | um that was definitely done with a view |
| 2648s | to extending it as a kind of like |
| 2650s | progression track and we actually wanted |
| 2652s | to kind of hand hold the player and then |
| 2655s | slowly release the handheld until they |
| 2656s | complete dragon slayer that's where we |
| 2658s | wanted to go with it wow right so then |
| 2659s | you let them go then and then the game |
| 2661s | becomes a full sound box I mean you can |
| 2663s | turn off the thing yeah that was so when |
| 2665s | we made it that was the plan but |
| 2667s | obviously other initiatives come along |
| 2669s | Things become more important yeah you |
| 2672s | are all exceptionally I mean my |
| 2673s | experience being here you are all |
| 2675s | exceptionally busy and have a lot of |
| 2676s | things on your plates and you know you |
| 2678s | can't you can't sit down and do this in |
| 2680s | a lunch break this is not a lunch break |
| 2682s | this is a full game scale we need to you |
| 2685s | know fix combat learnability readability |
| 2687s | it's incredibly complicated as well |
| 2688s | because every time we attack it it |
| 2691s | becomes outdated in about two weeks |
| 2693s | like |
| 2695s | you've got to fix it at a higher level |
| 2696s | and yeah yeah a lot a lot of what our |
| 2700s | jobs kind of involve as well as we have |
| 2702s | 101 ideas we don't have the time to even |
| 2704s | Implement 10 of them so how can we get |
| 2706s | there are there any short term or |
| 2708s | iterative versions and things like I |
| 2711s | think what Brad did with adding more |
| 2713s | information to spell level scaling and |
| 2715s | um starting to add keywords I think you |
| 2717s | even added range to weapons a while ago |
| 2719s | I added it and then someone on a |
| 2722s | different team did it at the same time |
| 2723s | as part of a strike right so it wasn't |
| 2724s | actually mine that went wrong but like |
| 2725s | things like that there are little things |
| 2727s | we can do iteratively and like sometimes |
| 2729s | you don't even realize it but when we |
| 2730s | make bosses we're obviously in deep in |
| 2732s | combat doing various things sometimes we |
| 2733s | rework a little thing behind the scenes |
| 2735s | that's more preparation for in the |
| 2736s | future |
| 2738s | um and it's just like things like that |
| 2739s | yeah we are always trying to do the best |
| 2741s | of the time we have obviously in an |
| 2743s | Ideal World we could sit and like solve |
| 2744s | problems but it's not always the case so |
| 2747s | yeah we we dig away and I think that |
| 2749s | some of the points we just discussed |
| 2751s | like maybe some of them are more |
| 2752s | important that could be broken down |
| 2754s | smaller like for every ability we now |
| 2756s | make maybe we should Define a keyword |
| 2758s | with it and then we can roll that back |
| 2759s | as and when and you know I get there |
| 2761s | slowly not just one update everything is |
| 2762s | keyworded it might feel a bit Mis um |
| 2767s | unorganized but to some degree it's |
| 2768s | either that or maybe it doesn't get done |
| 2770s | anything and yeah |
| 2772s | yeah absolutely I've got a question for |
| 2774s | for mod sponge uh Brad yikes so you you |
| 2778s | spend a lot of time in the pvme and and |
| 2780s | working with the pvme and I wanted to |
| 2783s | kind of get your thoughts on like how |
| 2785s | you feel about that time that you are |
| 2786s | spending the info that you're you're |
| 2788s | providing them because I I think I can I |
| 2790s | can leak this from the pvme side of |
| 2792s | things |
| 2793s | um there are you know a number of of |
| 2795s | devs in the pvme and jmods and there are |
| 2797s | jmod restricted kind of channels where |
| 2799s | the top players have an opportunity to |
| 2801s | you know let you know about bugs or |
| 2804s | interactions or things that aren't maybe |
| 2805s | super super clear and I think over the |
| 2807s | last let's say six months you've spent a |
| 2809s | lot of your own personal time kind of |
| 2811s | going in there going through the the end |
| 2813s | game player concerns and and making you |
| 2815s | know you've made a lot of small changes |
| 2817s | that have meant a lot to kind of that |
| 2819s | that community so yeah just uh overall |
| 2822s | how do you feel about the people |
| 2823s | encyclopedia how they how they work how |
| 2825s | they run I mean like at the moment it's |
| 2829s | um there's a bunch of information |
| 2830s | obviously behind the game that isn't |
| 2831s | players facing and players go I think |
| 2834s | this works like this so like to have an |
| 2836s | impact you can just come on and go yeah |
| 2838s | it works like that and suddenly like |
| 2839s | okay now we can put that in a calculator |
| 2840s | and we can actually figure out where it |
| 2841s | does and whilst that stuff's not |
| 2844s | in-game our side where you can just go |
| 2846s | oh this is how poison exactly works it's |
| 2849s | there somewhere for players to go |
| 2850s | through and actually figure things out |
| 2851s | and there is a subgroup of players that |
| 2854s | like figuring every single thing out |
| 2856s | even if they don't play the game anymore |
| 2858s | some people just go figure out okay I |
| 2860s | figured out it works this is great |
| 2862s | um but yeah nice um |
| 2864s | is it's a great group |
| 2867s | um obviously it's it's give and take |
| 2869s | right they they come to me with a bunch |
| 2870s | of bugs and I check that they're in or |
| 2873s | get an elevated if they're particularly |
| 2877s | harmful I think is the word |
| 2879s | um yeah this is is a very good thing |
| 2884s | um obviously it'd be good if we could |
| 2886s | get more of the things in game so it's |
| 2888s | not third party obviously there's a lot |
| 2891s | of like I think Brad said um give and |
| 2892s | take like we yeah we make the game but |
| 2895s | when we know how systems work but |
| 2898s | players definitely a high end know more |
| 2900s | about how the systems like work together |
| 2901s | like what you can animations and ability |
| 2904s | installing all this sort of stuff so |
| 2906s | sometimes asking you know the players |
| 2908s | how things work it's not because like it |
| 2910s | is because we don't know like the actual |
| 2912s | like uh what you call it application of |
| 2915s | it we understand how it works and that's |
| 2917s | why it is just as useful like I think |
| 2919s | yesterday I asked people to tell me the |
| 2920s | best way to kill glyco for rare drops |
| 2923s | and then someone said why don't you |
| 2924s | check the code and I'm like but I mean |
| 2926s | it's not that straightforward and also |
| 2928s | players have done the camera is yeah I |
| 2930s | mean |
| 2931s | a good examples when um you know when I |
| 2934s | rewatch The Buff bars yes and I was on |
| 2936s | pvme and asking them you know which ones |
| 2939s | are actually really important which |
| 2940s | groups are really important and that led |
| 2941s | to the default ordering of how things |
| 2944s | are laid out in the buff bars if you're |
| 2946s | yes I do remember all that yeah yes so |
| 2948s | that's that's like you giving back to us |
| 2950s | so in terms of you asking the question |
| 2951s | will you guys keep on doing this using |
| 2953s | your personal time it's like well it's a |
| 2954s | mutual but mutually beneficial thing |
| 2956s | that's why we do it right yeah all of |
| 2958s | the people that work on the game love |
| 2959s | for the game and We Do It For the Love |
| 2961s | of the Game it doesn't feel like work |
| 2963s | for us |
| 2964s | we want to see it improve just as much |
| 2967s | as you guys do but we've also got the |
| 2969s | business at the side yeah tackle with |
| 2972s | and |
| 2973s | like and as boring as the business it's |
| 2976s | like no we do have finite production |
| 2977s | resources finite yeah so like we're |
| 2981s | doing that kind of juggling and you guys |
| 2982s | shouldn't have to care about that we |
| 2984s | should be like the mouthpiece for |
| 2985s | generating that so yeah absolutely |
| 2989s | um I think to shift gears a little bit |
| 2991s | here I want to talk about something a |
| 2993s | little potentially contentious or you |
| 2995s | know opinionated but um what are your |
| 2997s | guys thoughts just full-on personal |
| 2999s | opinion on pvm Macros but I'm going to |
| 3002s | sub-categorize them as well |
| 3004s | um in the high-level people community |
| 3005s | there are lots of players like myself |
| 3007s | don't use any macros and and and never |
| 3009s | have but then also you know there's an |
| 3011s | influx of players who do like macros or |
| 3013s | possibly want to use macros |
| 3016s | um two categories there's the basic |
| 3018s | macro where I hit one button to put on a |
| 3020s | main hand and an offhand that I think a |
| 3023s | lot of players use and then there are |
| 3024s | the niche macros that most players don't |
| 3027s | touch but things that will do seven or |
| 3028s | eight or nine or ten inputs kind of all |
| 3030s | at once tick perfect and just yeah we |
| 3032s | can go around the room and if you want |
| 3034s | to just yeah give me give me your |
| 3036s | thoughts on how they interact with |
| 3037s | pvming or what their place is in the |
| 3039s | game |
| 3040s | um so from my point of view |
| 3044s | I see macros as an accessibility |
| 3047s | Improvement I'm a big fan of |
| 3049s | accessibility |
| 3051s | um and certainly on Primus I really 10 |
| 3053s | things with Primus number 11 was an |
| 3055s | Ingram in-game macro system I think the |
| 3059s | thing that's fundamentally wrong with |
| 3061s | the current world of macros is it's |
| 3064s | external it requires requires you to use |
| 3066s | external stuff and like I think we're at |
| 3070s | a point now because we can't there is we |
| 3072s | can't add any more action bars onto your |
| 3073s | screen because the action bars |
| 3075s | computationally are expensive to render |
| 3077s | yes but certainly like having an action |
| 3080s | bar that isn't rendered but let's say |
| 3082s | when you press like one on this action |
| 3084s | bar it presses one two three four five |
| 3085s | all at the same time on another action |
| 3087s | bar that's something that I think could |
| 3090s | be added to the game okay |
| 3092s | um certainly for like main hand off hand |
| 3093s | yeah I'd love to see those sorts of |
| 3096s | things included you you get you get you |
| 3099s | raise an interesting point about they're |
| 3100s | doing like six seven things at that |
| 3101s | point you have to ask yourself really a |
| 3105s | question of do we want mechanical skill |
| 3108s | to be a skill ceiling in RuneScape |
| 3110s | certainly an old school it's definitely |
| 3112s | a thing that they've lent into and |
| 3113s | something they definitely want |
| 3116s | um because that's what the mechanical |
| 3117s | skill is at the end game of combat in |
| 3119s | Old School right yeah you're kind of |
| 3120s | fighting against interface and how |
| 3122s | quickly you can yeah everything but in |
| 3124s | RuneScape 3 do we want that and if the |
| 3126s | answer is no then a macro system is the |
| 3128s | answer it removes that mechanical |
| 3131s | barrier which is basically what why |
| 3133s | people macro right it's that mechanical |
| 3135s | skill they don't have to do that every |
| 3136s | single time |
| 3137s | um |
| 3138s | so yes for accessibility six seven |
| 3141s | that do we want mechanical skill to be a |
| 3144s | thing at the skill ceiling of RuneScape |
| 3146s | so my my personal take I feel very |
| 3148s | similarly to you with regard to small |
| 3151s | macros does a couple things main it off |
| 3153s | and or a bladed dive switch |
| 3155s | um I don't really see those as a skill |
| 3157s | leap it's an accessibility it's I just |
| 3160s | freed up two keybinds because I already |
| 3162s | hit 14 buttons with my thumb and it is |
| 3164s | going to fall off |
| 3165s | um so so to me that that's very |
| 3167s | different from one that gives you a tick |
| 3169s | perfect it's like Auto detonate in gen |
| 3171s | Hammer bladedive staff on kind of thing |
| 3174s | that a number of people in the Virago |
| 3176s | Community use |
| 3179s | um and I think there's a big difference |
| 3180s | between the two and I think something |
| 3182s | important for me personally on the on |
| 3185s | the macro in front is I think some kind |
| 3189s | of stance whether it's the right stance |
| 3190s | or the wrong stance I think it's |
| 3192s | something that's been missing for a long |
| 3193s | time because I know you guys get asked |
| 3194s | about them all the time and it's not |
| 3196s | something that you can really you |
| 3198s | there's no chance of control there's no |
| 3200s | control yeah we don't have control over |
| 3202s | the rules of RuneScape as developers |
| 3203s | that's that we don't set that policy |
| 3207s | um so yeah and it makes it hard to talk |
| 3208s | about them yeah because at the end of |
| 3210s | the day we just want you guys to have |
| 3213s | fun playing RuneScape that's that's our |
| 3215s | motivation right how you go about doing |
| 3217s | it there's there's an argument the well |
| 3220s | that guy can use that third party thing |
| 3221s | that I didn't even know about in that |
| 3223s | now I'm having to do remember for like |
| 3225s | manually full ticking is miserable right |
| 3226s | it's absolutely miserable |
| 3228s | um so like that that's less fun |
| 3232s | um |
| 3232s | so |
| 3234s | yeah we just want you to have fun at the |
| 3236s | end of the day yeah macro we don't care |
| 3238s | but in reality no you don't make the |
| 3240s | rules then you have to follow I don't |
| 3242s | want anyone in my pvm community to get |
| 3244s | banned I want to grow the people |
| 3245s | community not drink it yes so yeah I'd |
| 3248s | I'd prefer that I'd like that I think |
| 3250s | almost with relation to that I think |
| 3251s | that does kind of Point towards a simple |
| 3253s | in-game macro system being potentially |
| 3255s | really interesting because then it's not |
| 3257s | a third party it's not external there's |
| 3259s | no security issue there's no |
| 3260s | accessibility issue where it's like oh I |
| 3262s | mean something I get a lot is do I need |
| 3264s | to buy in 100 gaming mouse to be able to |
| 3266s | 100 pound gaming mouse to be able to |
| 3268s | play RuneScape and the answer is |
| 3270s | progression curve the answer is yeah the |
| 3273s | answer is no but also if there was an |
| 3275s | in-game macro system even less of a no |
| 3277s | um because it just it allows it just |
| 3279s | frees up keybinds it makes the APM you |
| 3280s | know a little bit lower than it is and |
| 3282s | it's gotten higher and higher over time |
| 3284s | anyway yeah I mean there is again on |
| 3287s | like on our previous conversation there |
| 3288s | is Middle grounds like we could make a |
| 3290s | full-blown macro system which if you're |
| 3292s | familiar with other games they allow you |
| 3293s | to like properly write out is that you |
| 3295s | want to do or we could for argument's |
| 3297s | sake make an ability let's just say it's |
| 3299s | called dual World Swap and you can |
| 3302s | assign two weapons to it so when you |
| 3304s | upgrade from ascensions to Black bounds |
| 3306s | you have to change your assignment |
| 3307s | otherwise it's going to be like we can |
| 3308s | do small versions of those things if we |
| 3310s | want to um maybe that's you know it's |
| 3313s | over that or do nothing for a few years |
| 3314s | for argument's sake yeah maybe that is |
| 3316s | what we should do and I'm mostly in |
| 3317s | agreement with all the points um I think |
| 3319s | that it is it is on our mind when we're |
| 3322s | designing stuff because when we are |
| 3323s | making new abilities we have to say well |
| 3325s | that's another ability to they want to |
| 3327s | keybind therefore now where are they |
| 3328s | putting it because of those things so |
| 3330s | like I'm trying to think about a good |
| 3332s | example before but if you think about 10 |
| 3334s | drills 10 drills there's four of them |
| 3335s | yeah um |
| 3338s | right let's just say hybriding was a |
| 3341s | massive thing in RuneScape nowadays yes |
| 3343s | um I mean it actually is kind of a high |
| 3344s | level right but |
| 3346s | um if we didn't have action bar swapping |
| 3348s | that would be three abilities you'd have |
| 3350s | to put on your bar when in reality it |
| 3352s | could have just been called tendrils and |
| 3353s | the moment you equip a magic weapon it |
| 3354s | turns into the magic one like there are |
| 3356s | things like that that we can look at |
| 3358s | um but yeah so it does a bit off topic |
| 3359s | to your point no there is a middle |
| 3360s | ground like things we could try to do to |
| 3363s | mitigate to make things more accessible |
| 3366s | um because yeah I'm the same I I never |
| 3367s | draw wood swap never did because I just |
| 3369s | didn't want to deal with the touch key |
| 3371s | mines I I think part of the reason a lot |
| 3374s | of people macro too it's almost like a |
| 3375s | fomo thing where if you feel like the |
| 3377s | person next to you has an advantage over |
| 3379s | you |
| 3380s | it feels bad or I know a lot of people |
| 3382s | have like and this is something we |
| 3384s | didn't even touch on that maybe we we |
| 3385s | should touch on briefly I know a lot of |
| 3387s | people feel bad learning pvm because |
| 3391s | they don't want to make a mistake they |
| 3392s | don't want to mess up their their Hammer |
| 3394s | timing they don't want to I mean here's |
| 3396s | this is a very specific one that's kind |
| 3397s | of funny more than anything but uh the |
| 3399s | Virago world record team uh one of the |
| 3401s | one of the people on it the seven Man |
| 3403s | team was muted and I do progo with them |
| 3405s | on occasion and I was like what do they |
| 3407s | get muted for because like this sound |
| 3408s | guy I don't think they're gonna you know |
| 3410s | break any rules there |
| 3411s | they missed their Hammer by a tick so |
| 3413s | their team reported them and ended up |
| 3416s | muted and stuff like that where like |
| 3418s | there's pressure to perform in a certain |
| 3421s | way and assigning a big seven-way macro |
| 3424s | alleviates that pressure for a lot of |
| 3426s | players |
| 3428s | well they still need it no is it day |
| 3431s | long it's just when you were talking |
| 3433s | about |
| 3434s | um it's a touchy subject because you |
| 3437s | were saying |
| 3438s | um we can't we can't really say anything |
| 3440s | because then players might take out of |
| 3442s | context and then get banned and |
| 3443s | literally just the other day someone on |
| 3445s | Twitter went mod sponge is it correct |
| 3447s | you said this that it's okay for me to |
| 3449s | use Macross what where have you got this |
| 3452s | information this is why the the line was |
| 3455s | it's not us it's not on us the official |
| 3458s | ruling is that macros are against the |
| 3460s | rules one one input for one action is |
| 3463s | the rule right but again we're not |
| 3465s | Banning for it so our policy needs to be |
| 3468s | more upfront and honest well that's all |
| 3470s | the time we have thank you all so much |
| 3471s | for uh for joining in this this |
| 3472s | fantastic discussion and we will see you |
| 3474s | all in the next one |