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| 1s | foreign |
|---|---|
| 4s | hello and welcome I am coming at you |
| 6s | live from jagexhq and I'm joined by mods |
| 10s | Ryan and Jack um Ryan mondrion um |
| 13s | principal content developer design uh |
| 15s | various content in the game have done |
| 17s | for many years now uh just to name a few |
| 20s | archeology Rapture is that deep sea |
| 22s | fishing give you some relevance I'm mod |
| 24s | Jack I'm the designer as of recently so |
| 26s | my job has suddenly changed quite a lot |
| 28s | and now I'm responsible for all sorts of |
| 29s | things like supervising overall content |
| 31s | content strategy that kind of thing I |
| 33s | have designed or made a few updates in |
| 35s | the past like Mining and smithing rework |
| 36s | that kind of thing to start off when |
| 38s | we're talking about the concept of AF |
| 40s | King and RuneScape AFK has always been a |
| 43s | part of the game it's been a a core |
| 44s | piece of the game where there's a mix of |
| 46s | balanced content of yeah this should be |
| 48s | very active and this should be maybe |
| 49s | more of a second monitor thing but it |
| 52s | feels like in recent years there's been |
| 53s | a pretty significant uptick in the |
| 56s | player's ability to AFK things and play |
| 59s | things on on a second monitor you've got |
| 61s | things like Revolution plus plus which |
| 62s | allows you to fire ultimates and Thresh |
| 64s | thresholds without manual input at all |
| 66s | and then you've also got very recently |
| 68s | you've got Crypt Loom animate dead that |
| 70s | are you know even allowing things like |
| 71s | AFK bosses so all of God Wars dungeon 2 |
| 74s | now can be fully AFK and and zero inputs |
| 77s | needed and the same also applies to many |
| 79s | aspects of God Wars dungeon 3. so I |
| 82s | think I want to just start off by by |
| 84s | asking how you Ryan you feel about that |
| 86s | if you think that's good if it's a bad |
| 88s | thing if it's a balancing Point yeah and |
| 92s | there's a lot lot to digest there oh a |
| 94s | lot to take apart I mean it depends |
| 95s | really |
| 96s | um first of all when we talk about AFK I |
| 99s | mean I assume you're talking about right |
| 101s | now we're talking about combat |
| 103s | um when you talk about God Wars 2 I'm |
| 104s | actually kind of interested to know your |
| 105s | thoughts and give you my view but |
| 108s | goddess 2 has been out now since do you |
| 110s | remember when God was doing out 2016. 16 |
| 113s | 17 16 yeah |
| 114s | um so what's it been about five six |
| 116s | years now |
| 117s | um it's an interesting topic there you |
| 118s | mentioned that people AFK you know God |
| 120s | was dungeon too |
| 122s | um just a nail on that point |
| 123s | specifically right now |
| 125s | first of all do you think it's okay |
| 127s | or not I think it's okay to a point I |
| 129s | think in in my personal opinion I think |
| 132s | being able to AFK or low effort certain |
| 135s | older bosses I don't think it's |
| 137s | necessarily problematic because it's |
| 138s | older content that's being AFK I think |
| 140s | it's a little more problematic when |
| 141s | people are AFK Elder goddess bosses that |
| 143s | maybe just came out |
| 145s | um yeah for the old stuff I personally I |
| 147s | think it's very new conceptually you |
| 149s | never think I'm gonna go AFK this boss |
| 151s | with 200 000 life points but I think I |
| 153s | think it's personally all right the one |
| 155s | thing or the one gripe I have with it |
| 157s | over a lot of other things is just the |
| 159s | ability to effectively create your own |
| 161s | player run Farm of 10 20 30 accounts |
| 165s | that are you know AFK the same boss at |
| 166s | the same time just because the effort |
| 167s | level needed to to perform that content |
| 169s | is so incredibly low yeah oh that's |
| 173s | that's also a loaded question I mean |
| 175s | from so I can give you my personal view |
| 176s | first and then I kind of give you more |
| 177s | of a like as a design team I guess as |
| 180s | well like how we kind of think about |
| 182s | things and personally I think it's good |
| 184s | um it's good in the sense that for |
| 186s | example if we look at old school |
| 187s | RuneScape killing like uh I don't want |
| 190s | to say Bandos I mean Grotto or you know |
| 192s | creara Etc |
| 194s | um it's very different to obviously |
| 195s | killing Bandos |
| 196s | killing Grado sorry everyone yeah or |
| 200s | whatever you want |
| 201s | um garage door |
| 202s | um killing them in RuneScape of course |
| 204s | you do them in like a couple of seconds |
| 207s | um and that's obviously the state of how |
| 209s | the game has changed over the years is |
| 210s | it okay perfectly to be honest like we |
| 212s | we aren't expecting every bit of content |
| 214s | to be Evergreen for a players to go back |
| 215s | to and also you could ask yourself as |
| 218s | well do you really want to be I don't |
| 220s | want to say struggling but do you really |
| 221s | want to be putting in a lot of effort to |
| 223s | go and kill a boss that drops tier 70 |
| 225s | gear that you don't need you know in |
| 228s | 2022 as an example so yeah ultimately I |
| 231s | think the short answer at least for now |
| 232s | is yes I think it's fine |
| 234s | um with older content as content moves |
| 236s | on it's nice to get through that content |
| 238s | a lot faster and also we've obviously |
| 240s | got all the things like collection logs |
| 242s | and things and could you imagine trying |
| 243s | to do all the collection logs if you you |
| 245s | know every kill is like killing Grado is |
| 247s | two minutes long yeah I'd be a slug bit |
| 248s | of exaggeration but |
| 250s | um I think you could go you could go |
| 252s | beyond saying just the content doesn't |
| 254s | have to be Evergreen and you could say |
| 255s | that the content gets easier and more AF |
| 258s | cable over time helps it to be Evergreen |
| 260s | because it means that those long-term |
| 261s | accomplishments become accessible to a |
| 263s | bright a broader variety of players and |
| 265s | yeah yeah more people more people can |
| 267s | actually just content and actually it |
| 268s | kind of like the role of the content |
| 270s | within the game's ecosystem changes over |
| 272s | time and that's fine yeah it's almost |
| 273s | like a sliding scale of an end game |
| 275s | where the end game content of five six |
| 278s | seven years ago after looking at God |
| 279s | Wars 2 that was you know fairly endgame |
| 281s | you'd never on release consider AFK yet |
| 282s | but now that is no longer end game |
| 284s | content it's sort of it's shifted over |
| 286s | it's now mid game and then there's |
| 287s | things in the future for other endgame |
| 289s | content that can fill the void of of the |
| 291s | prior yeah and that's that's great |
| 293s | because like a new a new God Wars |
| 294s | dungeon is often in some ways gonna |
| 296s | replace it's not going to augment it's |
| 298s | going to replace |
| 299s | there's not really any way around that |
| 301s | but then if the older God Wars content |
| 302s | can become |
| 304s | almost a slightly different kind of |
| 305s | content we probably wouldn't have |
| 306s | designed it in that way in the first |
| 307s | place yeah design AFK versus AFK of all |
| 310s | bosses on purpose probably but we might |
| 312s | but the fact that it became that over |
| 314s | time is good yeah it's a good |
| 316s | effectively the game has more content |
| 318s | now as a result of that rather than two |
| 320s | two sets of non-afk bosses one of which |
| 322s | is redundant I mean you you said using |
| 325s | it specifically I think you said animate |
| 327s | dead [ __ ] Bloom as an example |
| 329s | um but yeah I really like that's a good |
| 331s | good way of putting it is that with |
| 332s | content over time sort of scaling into |
| 335s | that it's first lean forward you know |
| 338s | and I don't want to say intense but you |
| 339s | know back in the day killing God was |
| 340s | dungeon two and it first came out it |
| 342s | wasn't as straightforward as it is now |
| 343s | you know uh Power creep Etc what are all |
| 345s | those topics you talk about like Crypt |
| 347s | Bloom and Anime dead as examples |
| 349s | um I can speak personally I mean I've |
| 350s | I'm afk'd um |
| 354s | whatever you want to call it |
| 356s | um |
| 357s | not Cisco no I didn't kill slisky |
| 360s | um but um and yeah I mean there is a |
| 363s | whole there's a whole topic there right |
| 364s | where we can talk about which depends on |
| 366s | the strategy you use but if we just talk |
| 367s | about gregorovich as an example I'm |
| 369s | trying to remember what they'd use but |
| 370s | it's like there's all the stacking |
| 371s | things over since 2016. you've got |
| 373s | cinderbanes yeah Cinders Vamp scrims |
| 376s | yeah blood River Masterworks beer it's |
| 379s | bit of annihilation Masterwork armor |
| 381s | itself like yeah the whole range is a |
| 383s | big compounding you know not necessarily |
| 385s | just power creep but the work like |
| 387s | synergistic items |
| 389s | um sorry I'm skipping over [ __ ] Loom |
| 391s | right now no it's been a conversation |
| 393s | um and I think like obviously not in |
| 395s | that example but we've also got soul |
| 396s | split and now that we do more damage or |
| 398s | more hits Soul spit is better than it |
| 399s | once was yeah it's also it's a big |
| 402s | balancing point where it is so strong |
| 403s | now compared to what it used to be able |
| 405s | to do |
| 406s | um but yeah like I guess yeah like I |
| 408s | said short answer it is okay right I |
| 410s | think it's good for the game good for |
| 411s | the life cycle getting through it on |
| 413s | your point about end game content or |
| 416s | sorry use God or standard three as an |
| 417s | example simple I assume you're talking |
| 419s | about maybe like glycol or |
| 421s | um you can even AFK the first three |
| 424s | phases of hormone care back okay like |
| 426s | full AFK with with animate dead um all |
| 429s | that stuff yeah it's not efficient to do |
| 432s | so and I think that that kind of becomes |
| 434s | part of it too is is it okay that |
| 435s | someone afk's these first three phases |
| 437s | if it's twice or three times slower than |
| 439s | someone who is manually doing it and |
| 440s | that almost becomes a balancing Point |
| 442s | too yeah I mean yeah that's a trick in |
| 445s | that specific example I can't like I |
| 447s | can't do that across 40 machines right |
| 449s | because like no you there there are |
| 451s | sections yeah exactly yeah so if it was |
| 454s | allowing me to AFK Farm current end game |
| 456s | content on multiple accounts that'd be a |
| 458s | serious problem yeah yeah I mean if I |
| 461s | can if I can just really low effort like |
| 463s | get through the first few phases very |
| 465s | slowly yeah it's kind it's kind of a |
| 467s | natural extension of putting a lot of |
| 469s | effort in putting less effort in putting |
| 471s | no effort in |
| 473s | it's my take on that specific question |
| 475s | would be that that's probably not where |
| 476s | we want our current endgame content to |
| 478s | be but at the same time our design |
| 480s | philosophy hasn't I don't stop me to |
| 482s | disagree on this but I feel like we've |
| 483s | never really been that controlling about |
| 484s | stuff like if players are just playing |
| 486s | the game in a particular way our |
| 488s | attitude as jagex has never really been |
| 490s | like all players are playing this |
| 491s | content in a way we didn't expect we |
| 492s | need to shut that down yeah but the |
| 494s | content just kind of evolves naturally |
| 496s | into particular play Styles and and |
| 498s | we've never like in a sense in order to |
| 500s | ensure that that didn't happen we'd have |
| 502s | to be quite controlling I think in the |
| 503s | way that we did things and that's not |
| 504s | really our style I mean just to put it |
| 506s | into perspective we've never I can't |
| 508s | think of the time we have at least not |
| 510s | in time I've been here we've never |
| 511s | designed a boss to be AFK right like in |
| 513s | fact we design a boss to be the opposite |
| 515s | like we want you to you know we want to |
| 517s | stun you so we encourage you to use |
| 519s | anticipation Freedom Etc |
| 521s | um and with that in mind like yeah if if |
| 524s | the bosses have just come out use |
| 525s | goddess dungeon 3 as an example if |
| 527s | people are AFK in what is current |
| 530s | it is a bit more like hmm should we |
| 532s | change anything and I mean your question |
| 533s | in your sorry your your comment is more |
| 536s | specific to Crypt Bloom and Anime Dead |
| 538s | really that is the culprit for that |
| 540s | um if that didn't exist for example |
| 542s | would you be able to AFK caraback Hard |
| 544s | Mode no so realistically that to be |
| 546s | honest is more a problem in Crypt Bloom |
| 548s | and or and it's more in anime dead to be |
| 550s | honest in Crypt Bloom because obviously |
| 551s | quick Bloom is the what'd you call it |
| 554s | you could do it in Sea singers I'm sure |
| 555s | but it wouldn't be as good right these |
| 557s | things yeah |
| 558s | um |
| 559s | uh but yeah so like in that question I'd |
| 561s | say [ __ ] Bloom is actually the reason |
| 562s | that that's a problem and yeah an anime |
| 564s | dead yeah sorry animate that is what I |
| 566s | meant |
| 567s | um I guess I get so I guess like there |
| 569s | was a heart of one party original |
| 570s | question I think was is it an |
| 571s | intentional strategy on our part to add |
| 573s | in animate dead to make pvm more |
| 575s | afk-able and I don't think that was the |
| 578s | case as far as I know that wasn't it |
| 580s | wasn't added because at a strategic |
| 581s | level we were like yeah it's like pvm |
| 584s | takes too many clicks we should we |
| 585s | should definitely do something about |
| 586s | that that wasn't what we were thinking |
| 588s | no I mean I don't know the exact reason |
| 590s | like uh reason for the design but yeah |
| 593s | things like crypto and Anime dead were |
| 594s | just to encourage different play Styles |
| 596s | because like tank armor is just mostly |
| 598s | Irrelevant in RuneScape right now like |
| 601s | it's all about power gear right so so it |
| 603s | did that like it has made it relevant |
| 604s | but maybe too relevant is kind of the |
| 606s | argument because it has made content go |
| 608s | from being you know not AFK to AFK if we |
| 611s | speak quite bluntly between the two |
| 613s | um but yeah I mean you sorry just a you |
| 616s | said a lot of things different things we |
| 618s | could jump back on and we're gonna touch |
| 620s | all of them yeah um with with the whole |
| 622s | like AFK of that content long term like |
| 625s | perfectly half of any content being AFK |
| 627s | short term if it wasn't designed that |
| 629s | way |
| 630s | like as uh Tim said that um reject him |
| 634s | either works I'm sure Tim Tim I'm gonna |
| 636s | call you Tim |
| 638s | um as Tim said um yeah I'd like design |
| 641s | philosophy has always like come up with |
| 642s | a bunch of stuff |
| 643s | we have an idea of how we like Envision |
| 645s | it to be played but we don't have any |
| 647s | expectation on how players go and play |
| 650s | it it is a Sandbox the game is 20 years |
| 651s | of everything you know amulets are rings |
| 654s | random items that you can carry around |
| 657s | um we have no expectation from how |
| 658s | players want to deal with it but we will |
| 660s | always of course look at it monitor it |
| 662s | is it how we actually want it to be |
| 664s | because sometimes it's like we are like |
| 666s | I'm I actually love it when I design |
| 668s | something and players do something I'm |
| 670s | like didn't think about that's actually |
| 671s | really cool like actually I really like |
| 673s | that |
| 674s | um but obviously if it's like as people |
| 676s | would say cheesy there is a degree of we |
| 678s | should consider changing it because we |
| 679s | don't want the whole content being |
| 681s | um you know devalued I guess as a way of |
| 684s | putting it just to steer things back |
| 685s | kind of uh to what we're talking about |
| 687s | with animate dead and crippling so in |
| 689s | your personal opinion those are things |
| 691s | that could potentially be looked at then |
| 692s | yeah for sure |
| 694s | um mainly anime dead in that that |
| 696s | conversation uh just for you know yes |
| 699s | useful but a little bit overtuned |
| 701s | perhaps yeah arguably yeah I mean it was |
| 703s | it was something that came up so uh an |
| 706s | expectation that a lot of players had |
| 707s | all the mining and smithing reworked |
| 708s | just thinking back to the last time I |
| 709s | had to worry about this problem they |
| 711s | they wanted us to Balance power armor |
| 712s | versus tank armor and I think this |
| 714s | specific problem illustrates the problem |
| 716s | of doing that that the mining smithing |
| 718s | work essentially ignored that problem |
| 719s | and just said power armor is bad idea |
| 720s | with it and actually the some players |
| 723s | were disappointed with that and they |
| 724s | said well this would have been a perfect |
| 725s | opportunity to rebalance tank armor and |
| 728s | Incredibly kind of Illustrator sorry |
| 730s | anime dad kind of illustrates the |
| 732s | problem that when when tan Karma gets to |
| 735s | like sorry there's a math thing to it |
| 737s | right if you kill the boss faster you |
| 738s | take less damage yeah of course and |
| 740s | usually so in most game systems in most |
| 742s | games that means that if you can trade |
| 745s | damage versus damage resistance damage |
| 747s | is better because it usually both |
| 748s | duplicates the effect of damage |
| 749s | resistance and kills the and just |
| 752s | completes the content faster so that you |
| 753s | get more done if you you have to balance |
| 756s | tank armor or whatever your defensive |
| 758s | ability is so high that it effectively |
| 762s | makes you invulnerable to damage for it |
| 765s | to be worth bothering to use at all at |
| 767s | which point you have the exact problem |
| 768s | you're outlying of like well now the |
| 770s | content is easy and and AF capable so |
| 772s | that's the like the basic balance |
| 773s | problem of like offensive versus |
| 774s | defensive play |
| 776s | if defensive play gets powerful enough |
| 778s | to use it's only because it lets you AFK |
| 780s | things so you could argue I'm not |
| 781s | necessarily don't necessarily agree with |
| 782s | this yeah but you could argue that the |
| 784s | ability to AFK son of karabakh is |
| 786s | defensive play working as as intended |
| 788s | because if you can't do that what's the |
| 790s | point of what's the point of the tank |
| 792s | here yeah exactly if you if you can't do |
| 795s | that you might as well just go full |
| 796s | offensive and kill as quickly as |
| 797s | possible which is especially during |
| 798s | RuneScape where you're trying to farm |
| 799s | bosses as fast as well I mean it's a |
| 801s | good example of um if you take both |
| 803s | examples where you can let's say AFK a |
| 806s | whole fight which is goddess dungeon 2 |
| 808s | or let's not say AFK but more like Tech |
| 812s | Zak as an example A lot of people take |
| 813s | [ __ ] Bloom for the hard mode waves but |
| 815s | then they swap for the boss |
| 817s | because of course you don't need to tank |
| 819s | as much against the boss you want to |
| 820s | kill the kill boss sorry what's up kill |
| 822s | Zack as fast as you can yeah there are |
| 823s | time Gates and you want to be able to do |
| 825s | it in a certain motorcycles absolutely |
| 826s | there's an incentive for for going |
| 828s | faster on Zuck that is you know |
| 830s | overvalued or outweighs the value of the |
| 831s | crypto yeah I think those scenarios are |
| 833s | good but they obviously have their own |
| 835s | problems which is now you have to carry |
| 836s | two sets of gear right and it's a whole |
| 837s | different question which we won't talk |
| 839s | about right now but but yeah like in an |
| 840s | Ideal World I think we're not at a place |
| 843s | yet I think where we've found tank |
| 845s | armors place I guess like I think in |
| 848s | mostly an agreement that |
| 850s | um animate dead is just a bit too strong |
| 852s | at the moment um I don't have any |
| 854s | suggestions or anything here of like |
| 855s | what we would do to change it but |
| 857s | ultimately it could be changed |
| 858s | um and [ __ ] Bloom yeah just an additive |
| 860s | thing of that I don't necessarily think |
| 862s | crypto needs to change at all depending |
| 863s | on what anime did |
| 865s | yeah and I think as well overall for the |
| 868s | game it's been really interesting |
| 869s | there's been a Renaissance of all of |
| 871s | this this tank gear that was seen prior |
| 873s | to this is dead content and I think that |
| 875s | in a lot of ways can be very good as |
| 876s | well so there are kind of added |
| 878s | um you know additions to this that make |
| 881s | it a little more complicated and a lot |
| 882s | of positives that have come out of it |
| 883s | too but just to kind of call back to |
| 885s | what we were talking about earlier with |
| 886s | you know a sliding scale end game |
| 889s | um AFK things like you know bits of bits |
| 892s | of the Care Pack boss fight |
| 894s | um Etc do you feel that AFK methods in |
| 898s | the game for you know the majority of |
| 899s | content are they okay only under the |
| 902s | qualifier that it's not the end game |
| 904s | stuff there is an argument that for |
| 906s | argument's sake in two years time |
| 907s | animate dead let's just say it hasn't |
| 909s | changed and there's no better given |
| 911s | Crypt bloom we haven't made it any |
| 913s | better in two years but and the content |
| 915s | we released in two years from a power |
| 917s | side for argument's sake a boss has |
| 919s | twice as much HP so it's gonna be even |
| 921s | slower to try to AFK it because you've |
| 923s | got to deal twice as much damage so over |
| 925s | time that like animate dead crippling |
| 928s | meta might just naturally fall off you |
| 930s | know if content is the bosses get harder |
| 932s | and harder |
| 933s | um so but yeah ultimately we are okay |
| 935s | with it like like uh Tim says |
| 938s | um as long as new content is interactive |
| 941s | um there is also the sliding scale of |
| 943s | player one right like you know if it's |
| 945s | eight o'clock in the evening I just want |
| 947s | to chill more than happy whack my Crypt |
| 949s | Bloom on and whack my animate dead on |
| 950s | and just you know passively kill |
| 952s | something in three minutes rather than |
| 953s | one it's just as an example I think |
| 955s | there's a strong separation between like |
| 957s | what might be good for the game or the |
| 959s | health of the game necessarily across |
| 961s | you know all facets and what's actually |
| 963s | you know what's enjoyable that's |
| 964s | preference because I'm exactly like you |
| 966s | when I'm not streaming when I'm on my |
| 968s | own time uh I love kreblin I wear it at |
| 971s | Telos I do most of my people coming in |
| 972s | it because you don't lose that much |
| 974s | damage and it makes everything a lot |
| 976s | more relaxed a lot safer and I think in |
| 977s | a way it's a really good accessibility |
| 979s | option that has just given players the |
| 982s | choice of kind of well exactly like you |
| 984s | you said earlier to you know |
| 986s | stylistically choose either to go as |
| 988s | fast as you can to mitigate damage which |
| 990s | is historically how a lot of MMO combat |
| 993s | works or to take things slower but still |
| 995s | not end up being punished for going |
| 996s | slower at least in the combat side of |
| 998s | things bosses are always relevant |
| 1000s | because of logs right and progression |
| 1003s | side of things no I mean I'm not killing |
| 1004s | KB I'm sure none of us can kbd for money |
| 1006s | or anything but kbd still has drops that |
| 1009s | are relevant to a log and we wouldn't |
| 1011s | expect you to you know I I want to |
| 1013s | complete kbd log tonight and because of |
| 1015s | that I have to be fully engaged it's so |
| 1017s | old it's okay for you to chill yeah but |
| 1019s | yeah if you told me that tonight you're |
| 1021s | gonna go and fight Zuck and you're going |
| 1022s | to watch Netflix at the same time like |
| 1024s | I'd be a bit more what are you doing you |
| 1026s | know I'm a bit more curious about it |
| 1028s | yeah we also have um I mean just the |
| 1030s | sheer way our economy Works especially |
| 1031s | in pvm you alluded to it earlier that if |
| 1034s | your kill time is slower actually |
| 1036s | whether or not you can kill the boss at |
| 1038s | all isn't that big a deal in our game |
| 1040s | what matters is how quickly you can kill |
| 1041s | it and how frequently you can Farm it so |
| 1043s | in that regard extremely slow methods |
| 1045s | that allow me to get girls you refer to |
| 1046s | it as an accessibility thing and I think |
| 1048s | you could look at it in that way that |
| 1049s | the ability to get slow kills isn't |
| 1052s | isn't breaking the economy you know the |
| 1054s | fact that people can can get get get |
| 1056s | gets lower but possible kills isn't |
| 1059s | really doing anyone any harm I I would |
| 1061s | agree with that and I have a segue from |
| 1063s | things that are breaking the economy and |
| 1064s | breaking the game with regard to AF King |
| 1067s | and Revo plus plus of late |
| 1070s | um and it's the aspect of what about the |
| 1073s | players who have chosen to build |
| 1075s | effectively their own it's not a bot |
| 1077s | Farm because there are no Bots being |
| 1078s | used but what can I ask for a situation |
| 1080s | so for example the my Homeworld I play |
| 1082s | on there is an individual who has I |
| 1085s | believe 12 accounts and they all AFK the |
| 1087s | Heller bus just because they wanted to |
| 1089s | and they all have the same naming |
| 1090s | convention and every 20 minutes you see |
| 1092s | one of them getting getting a Heller |
| 1094s | drop because they're fully AFK yeah |
| 1096s | they've set their screen to five FPS and |
| 1099s | they're just sitting there for hours and |
| 1101s | hours and hours on end |
| 1102s | playing the game on on 12 Accounts at |
| 1104s | once and doing actual pvm on 12 Accounts |
| 1107s | at once so does that sort of change |
| 1110s | perspective I think it's definitely I |
| 1112s | think most would see that as as a |
| 1114s | negative or a negative outcome related |
| 1115s | to this and whether or not that |
| 1116s | outweighs the the benefits of the |
| 1118s | accessibility but is there you know an |
| 1121s | opportunity to potentially look at that |
| 1123s | and say okay maybe that is crossing a |
| 1125s | line for a number of other reasons yeah |
| 1127s | it's difficult one because like yeah I |
| 1129s | mean you can apply the same logic to it |
| 1130s | right and it's all it's about whether |
| 1132s | the costs outweigh the whether the |
| 1133s | benefits outweigh the the costs of it |
| 1136s | um and yeah I think I think we would |
| 1137s | agree that that players multi-farming is |
| 1140s | a bad thing for the economy |
| 1143s | um it's it's |
| 1145s | it it's kind of like but I mean I guess |
| 1147s | you could you could again do the same |
| 1148s | economic analysis though right you could |
| 1150s | work out I haven't sat down I've done |
| 1151s | this now if anyone has but like is it |
| 1154s | actually worth doing that like could I |
| 1155s | put the same amount of time and effort |
| 1157s | into playing better on one account and |
| 1160s | farming the same amount of money I have |
| 1162s | actually kind of prep for this I I did |
| 1164s | some analysis okay you can beat all the |
| 1166s | best money makers in the game right by |
| 1168s | doing that right yeah so then at that |
| 1169s | point yeah it does become yes yeah It's |
| 1172s | Tricky the correct way to play the game |
| 1173s | is to play that way then yes I think I |
| 1175s | would agree It's tricky because |
| 1176s | ultimately for every additional account |
| 1178s | you have you are doing parallel work |
| 1180s | right like it doesn't matter let's just |
| 1182s | say this isn't a great money making |
| 1183s | method anymore let's just say I'm |
| 1185s | picking flags and you can pick Flex in |
| 1186s | 20 accounts you're gonna make 20 tons as |
| 1188s | much money assuming you can do it in |
| 1190s | this yeah at a certain point it will |
| 1191s | always be best to do that yeah yeah |
| 1194s | um but It's Tricky from a design point |
| 1196s | of view as well right in the |
| 1198s | yes for example like Tim's over here |
| 1200s | with 10 of his accounts killing hell as |
| 1203s | an example and I know you're not let's |
| 1204s | just saying oh yeah yeah |
| 1207s | um yeah what can we do from a design |
| 1209s | point of view is tricky because that is |
| 1212s | no different to you know for example 10 |
| 1214s | people killing her away from an economy |
| 1216s | standpoint I mean if every single person |
| 1218s | in the game had 10 accounts I mean |
| 1220s | obviously it's tenfold is a big problem |
| 1222s | it's It's tricky because what can we do |
| 1224s | and is it a problem for myself |
| 1227s | personally I think that from an outside |
| 1228s | point of view yeah it's not great like |
| 1230s | oh this person can make 10 times as much |
| 1232s | money but they've also invested in 10 |
| 1235s | accounts they've done that they've got |
| 1236s | to that point and they are just doing |
| 1238s | what 10 players could be doing but |
| 1240s | they're doing it themselves I don't have |
| 1242s | the numbers of course but I don't know |
| 1243s | how many people are playing on I know a |
| 1245s | lot of people play on two accounts maybe |
| 1246s | three but beyond that I don't know |
| 1249s | um it's a tricky one for sure I don't |
| 1251s | think there is a design solution because |
| 1253s | if we were to forgot for example let's |
| 1255s | just say it was to do with animate dead |
| 1257s | and we know found make dead because too |
| 1259s | many people are using multiple accounts |
| 1261s | for every person that's using multiple |
| 1263s | accounts there's probably like 100 |
| 1265s | people who are just playing on one and |
| 1266s | now we've nerfed it for them and they're |
| 1268s | the people who who you know |
| 1270s | benefit a lot from this feature now I |
| 1272s | can just you know whack wherever on and |
| 1274s | do this um so yeah it's a balancing act |
| 1277s | um ultimately we of course we want to |
| 1279s | make content that appeals to everyone |
| 1281s | now that's not we don't make every bit |
| 1283s | of content to people to everyone right |
| 1284s | we're not making a new boss to appeal to |
| 1286s | level tens |
| 1288s | um but we do want to try to spread and |
| 1290s | like stretch out the who can play this |
| 1292s | content or who benefits from this |
| 1294s | content |
| 1295s | um and I think yeah without going too |
| 1298s | much there's always a there's always |
| 1300s | um outliers on either end right the |
| 1301s | people who take things to the extreme |
| 1303s | yeah and the vice versa um tricky |
| 1306s | situation I guess yeah from design |
| 1307s | standpoint that's probably an outlier |
| 1309s | it's not that the majority of people |
| 1310s | were doing it and if I guess the the |
| 1312s | impact or the the need to make a change |
| 1314s | to like I don't limit how many accounts |
| 1315s | you can play at once would be you know |
| 1317s | great and significantly by you know if |
| 1320s | half of the people who played RuneScape |
| 1322s | wanted to do it that way yeah and yeah |
| 1324s | yeah I think that makes we worry a lot I |
| 1326s | mean like it's not I don't I don't want |
| 1328s | to make this out to be a business |
| 1329s | problem because it's not exactly but we |
| 1330s | we worry a lot more when it's something |
| 1332s | that can be done free to play than when |
| 1334s | it's something could be done as member |
| 1335s | because there's nothing to stop you just |
| 1337s | creating an uncapped number of accounts |
| 1338s | and just doing it endlessly |
| 1341s | um and so so from a design point of view |
| 1342s | we do occasionally look at that like |
| 1344s | it's not like members is like a magic |
| 1346s | barrier yeah of course but it but it |
| 1348s | helps to cut down for sure and if we |
| 1351s | wanted to go further than that from a |
| 1352s | design point if we'd run to the exact |
| 1353s | problem as care pack with um |
| 1355s | uh you know if we prevented it as you're |
| 1357s | alluding to like we could prevent |
| 1359s | players from doing that by preventing |
| 1361s | anything from being AFK eat and then all |
| 1363s | the legitimate use cases would get |
| 1364s | thrown out as well and |
| 1366s | ultimately I think we probably feel that |
| 1368s | would be worse for the game I think |
| 1369s | that's that's ultimately the case is |
| 1370s | that's we have to make the decision you |
| 1372s | know the net decision is the most |
| 1374s | positive for the most people yeah |
| 1376s | ultimately yeah we're we want to make |
| 1378s | best fun content for everyone right um |
| 1381s | of course that's an impossible task yeah |
| 1383s | yeah it isn't it's definitely an |
| 1384s | impossible task here's one that I think |
| 1386s | the community has you know weighed in a |
| 1387s | lot on and it's probably the the most |
| 1389s | frequent Reddit complaint of possibly of |
| 1392s | all time but it's crypticators |
| 1395s | and how that landscape changes when it's |
| 1398s | not AFK a boss in an instance it's AFK a |
| 1400s | Slayer mob where there's scarcity so for |
| 1403s | example there are certain individuals |
| 1405s | who will do corrupted creatures or |
| 1406s | corrupted Scorpions on 40 Accounts at |
| 1408s | once and then anyone who actually wants |
| 1410s | to do a serotask can't and it's a mix of |
| 1412s | old farming and there's also a bot |
| 1414s | situation there but I think we should |
| 1415s | focus for for now just on the on the alt |
| 1417s | situation there and it's just the idea |
| 1419s | of this is definitely a problem but how |
| 1422s | can that be approached yeah |
| 1425s | um well the question to you is you say |
| 1427s | it can be a problem I'm off top of my |
| 1429s | head I can think of a couple of problems |
| 1430s | which problems are you thinking about |
| 1431s | specifically um they're not terribly |
| 1433s | economical I think it's uh it's a cause |
| 1435s | of kind of player pain if you're trying |
| 1437s | to do your Slayer tasks you've got to |
| 1438s | hop 30 worlds I think to me that's the |
| 1440s | most significant problem economically is |
| 1442s | that great do I personally feel like you |
| 1444s | should be able to play 48 counts at once |
| 1445s | no if it were up to me I would I would |
| 1447s | probably cap the amount of accounts that |
| 1449s | you could log into at one time and I |
| 1450s | know logistically that's impossible to |
| 1452s | do but you know if I had a magic wand I |
| 1454s | would probably do that just for you know |
| 1456s | the whole scarcity uh the whole scarcity |
| 1458s | issue but yeah my primary issue |
| 1460s | definitely just hogging every single |
| 1462s | world yeah I mean I think I agree with |
| 1463s | that from a magic one point of view we |
| 1465s | were talking about what we can do how |
| 1466s | can we address this problem from a |
| 1467s | design point of view and we said well |
| 1469s | actually maybe maybe allowing people to |
| 1472s | farm something on 10 account something |
| 1473s | instanced on 10 accounts |
| 1475s | doesn't isn't as bad as the cost would |
| 1478s | be of preventing that from happening in |
| 1480s | this case when we're talking about like |
| 1481s | so when we're talking about like well |
| 1482s | what you know from our design |
| 1483s | philosophical point of view what's the |
| 1485s | maximum number of accounts we would |
| 1486s | expect a player to play on |
| 1487s | simultaneously you mentioned two like I |
| 1489s | think it's probably not ten if we could |
| 1490s | just magically prevent people yeah if we |
| 1492s | had technology that existed that could |
| 1494s | just prevent multi-logging we'd probably |
| 1497s | cap it at two maybe three I think we |
| 1498s | probably wouldn't cap it at one I think |
| 1500s | there's a logistical no I know a lot of |
| 1502s | people that play multiple accounts we |
| 1503s | wouldn't want to count one I think that |
| 1505s | would stop you playing old school on RS3 |
| 1506s | simultaneously if you like capped it at |
| 1508s | four I think 99.9 of the player base |
| 1511s | would not ever run into run into that I |
| 1513s | think four is the most I've ever used |
| 1514s | like as a content creator from shooting |
| 1516s | cinematics for something I've got one |
| 1517s | account on freecam and and whatever else |
| 1519s | yeah I mean so one of the problems you |
| 1522s | listed was of course the not being able |
| 1524s | to find a world which I've been guilty |
| 1526s | of the same thing to the point where |
| 1527s | I've canceled my task or you know like |
| 1529s | you go in there to kill the I can't |
| 1531s | remember what they are the first ones |
| 1532s | you see is the Scorpions and then if you |
| 1534s | can't get a world there you just move |
| 1535s | over to do something nearby |
| 1538s | um yeah and I think there are some quick |
| 1540s | solutions to that which is we could |
| 1542s | instance the area right you could have |
| 1543s | instances |
| 1544s | um scarabs as an example which would |
| 1547s | solve the problem for the majority of |
| 1549s | players who can't find worlds but of |
| 1551s | course it means that now everyone can |
| 1552s | Farm them if they wanted to with no |
| 1555s | concern which has an economic concern |
| 1558s | but |
| 1559s | speaking like |
| 1562s | um quite high level and it like if you |
| 1564s | were to take 20 people that have 20 |
| 1565s | accounts you know what's the quick math |
| 1568s | 400 yeah it's only 400 people but then |
| 1571s | versus the other 100 000 players who can |
| 1572s | now do it we were probably just by |
| 1574s | instancing them alone the economy would |
| 1576s | change based on individual players not |
| 1578s | on alts being all up I get a free 20 |
| 1580s | worlds now |
| 1582s | um but yeah I mean it depends on what |
| 1583s | problems we want to solve I think that |
| 1584s | in an Ideal World Slayer has always been |
| 1586s | a problem for World hopping right back |
| 1589s | in the day it was and I mean we had this |
| 1590s | thing with Mining and smithing like we |
| 1592s | purposely made it so you can't there was |
| 1594s | no competing for rocks anymore right |
| 1596s | because of the same problem runescape's |
| 1598s | definitely moved in that like uh what's |
| 1600s | a good way of putting it something we |
| 1601s | talk about a lot used to design capacity |
| 1602s | there's a removal of yeah City yeah and |
| 1605s | and from a high level point of view now |
| 1606s | we we talk a lot about how RuneScape is |
| 1608s | a single player game in a multiplayer |
| 1610s | World sometimes like you want to play |
| 1612s | your own game but alongside your friends |
| 1614s | and stuff and that is something we do a |
| 1615s | lot of designed uh content for |
| 1618s | um sorry just a point |
| 1621s | and uh yeah I mean I think with relation |
| 1624s | to that the most recent Slayer dungeon |
| 1626s | update was the Abyssal creatures and on |
| 1628s | release date there was a lot of scarcity |
| 1630s | to try and actually find a tag and there |
| 1632s | was a lot of griefing and there were |
| 1634s | situations there and right off rip the |
| 1636s | the initial response was I believe |
| 1638s | within 24 hours there is now an instant |
| 1640s | system but it's designed in such a way |
| 1642s | that I believe five people can get into |
| 1645s | each dungeon instance and then it will |
| 1646s | just create a new One automatically so |
| 1648s | that if you want to play the game with |
| 1649s | your friends you can still enter with |
| 1651s | your friends |
| 1652s | um and it doesn't completely remove the |
| 1654s | aspect of other people but it does |
| 1655s | remove the competition it's difficult |
| 1656s | because I don't I don't think we have uh |
| 1658s | I don't think we have a an overall fixed |
| 1661s | certain design Philosophy for how to |
| 1663s | approach that problem so we're |
| 1664s | experimenting with different things like |
| 1665s | you've said with money and smithing with |
| 1667s | mining rocks I mean you could argue that |
| 1669s | it's a bit weird that they all never |
| 1670s | depletes but also it's a bit weird that |
| 1672s | it grew back anyway so like it's not |
| 1674s | like mining was ever realistic in the |
| 1675s | first place with monsters it would feel |
| 1677s | really weird to have multiple people |
| 1678s | farming one monster like it yeah oh |
| 1680s | absolutely it's hard to implement that |
| 1681s | in a way that even makes logical sense |
| 1683s | because monsters die when you kill them |
| 1685s | right like it doesn't really make sense |
| 1688s | um be instancing is a as a point is it's |
| 1691s | a quick easy solution right now easy in |
| 1693s | a good way like it's great for everyone |
| 1695s | um does it have an egg I never said a |
| 1697s | word does it have economic impact I'm |
| 1699s | sure it might but in the grand scheme of |
| 1701s | things probably not like |
| 1703s | we don't we don't balance I don't think |
| 1705s | or at least I'm not consciously aware |
| 1706s | that we balance based on drop rates and |
| 1707s | drop table values we don't balance on |
| 1709s | any storms the number of Slayer monsters |
| 1711s | that exist across all worlds creating a |
| 1713s | cap on the number that can be killed I |
| 1715s | don't think I've ever seen an analysis |
| 1716s | like that we don't it's not like we take |
| 1718s | that into account as a balancing Factor |
| 1719s | no so in theory if there were an |
| 1721s | infinite number of them it wouldn't make |
| 1722s | a difference to advancing any resource |
| 1724s | point of view we just assume there's |
| 1726s | infinite because there is right like |
| 1727s | there's infinite of any resource |
| 1729s | um just the same as bosses you know |
| 1731s | there's infinite amount of bosses anyone |
| 1733s | can do them I mean that's it that's |
| 1734s | actually a side point but it's just an |
| 1736s | interesting topic of instancing is has |
| 1738s | been a very powerful feature |
| 1740s | because imagine if you couldn't instance |
| 1742s | bosses and you all had baseball bosses |
| 1744s | like back in the day like be a crazy |
| 1745s | different game nowadays without however |
| 1747s | Quest worked I think that's how |
| 1748s | EverQuest worked all dungeons were |
| 1750s | non-instanced and so you had to be the |
| 1751s | first to get to the boss I mean even |
| 1753s | look at old school RuneScape until very |
| 1754s | recently they only have a few bosses |
| 1756s | that uh that run instances and for many |
| 1758s | yeah you just have to can you not even |
| 1760s | instance |
| 1762s | oh you can now |
| 1764s | recently that's a more recent date yeah |
| 1766s | just to put that in you know just for |
| 1769s | everyone like put that into perspective |
| 1770s | a moment if only one person per world |
| 1772s | could fight a boss crazy |
| 1774s | um but yeah instancing in general has |
| 1776s | been very good for us and as Tim |
| 1778s | mentioned Shogun tested the whole |
| 1780s | instance the area not per person but |
| 1783s | like you said five people whether the |
| 1785s | number is it's a nice way of finding a |
| 1786s | middle ground where it's still because a |
| 1788s | lot of instancing means that the game |
| 1789s | could end up in a position where again |
| 1791s | from a design point of view we don't |
| 1793s | want the game to feel empty so you if |
| 1795s | for arguments say let's just say we |
| 1796s | instance the Slayer Tower and you're the |
| 1797s | only person in the Slayer Tower it'll |
| 1799s | feel a bit weird you want to be in a |
| 1800s | tower where you see people on the other |
| 1801s | side of the tower fighting aberrant |
| 1803s | species |
| 1804s | exactly you don't want to entirely |
| 1806s | talked about it being sort of semi |
| 1808s | single player but it isn't single player |
| 1810s | it's not a single player game yeah your |
| 1811s | actions and game don't necessarily |
| 1813s | impact the other players around you but |
| 1815s | you still want to be surrounded by other |
| 1816s | players you want the feel of a of an MMO |
| 1818s | where you're you know you're interacting |
| 1820s | with with a group of other people who |
| 1822s | are playing on the same server as you |
| 1823s | and that has that has a really |
| 1824s | interesting effect on the whole idea of |
| 1826s | competing for scarce resources because |
| 1827s | part of the reason that we designed |
| 1829s | money is everything the way we did is we |
| 1830s | don't want other players to be an |
| 1832s | irritation that's like the word crashing |
| 1833s | right it's implicitly like I hate seeing |
| 1836s | another player I'm trying to get my job |
| 1838s | done I'm trying to get my thing done and |
| 1839s | another player existing is an |
| 1841s | inconvenience to me and that's not what |
| 1842s | you want from social MMO right that's |
| 1844s | very difficult to contrast that against |
| 1846s | the idea of like like with lot monsters |
| 1848s | are logically scarce it's very hard to |
| 1850s | get my balance right I think a lot of |
| 1852s | this comes down to just balancing it is |
| 1853s | very hard because you don't want to go |
| 1855s | too far one way or the other but you do |
| 1856s | need to find the right balance that |
| 1857s | works for the majority of players and I |
| 1859s | think when you do so you are going to |
| 1861s | alienate some people on both of the |
| 1863s | extremes potentially where you know it |
| 1865s | isn't necessarily exactly how I would |
| 1867s | want it or someone else would want it |
| 1868s | but ultimately it's the decision that is |
| 1870s | made that is best for the majority of |
| 1872s | the player base so much of the stuff |
| 1874s | that I end up arguing with players about |
| 1875s | is where we've had to draw a compromise |
| 1877s | position |
| 1878s | and like you're saying like the players |
| 1879s | who feel quite strongly about one end of |
| 1881s | that compromise the majority of players |
| 1884s | is more is more of a focus like most of |
| 1886s | the time the only time it's not is like |
| 1888s | for example if we are very specifically |
| 1890s | designing the hardest boss in the game |
| 1891s | our focus is on the high levels we're |
| 1894s | not expecting you to just come out with |
| 1896s | your bronze sword and turn up but like |
| 1897s | if you can't do it great like that's |
| 1899s | that's intentional you can't do it |
| 1900s | um but for the most part when we talk |
| 1902s | about things like Slayer is probably a |
| 1904s | good topic Slayer is for everyone for |
| 1906s | the most part like we will be designing |
| 1907s | for the majority I think we've had um |
| 1910s | high level Slayer mobs so if we consider |
| 1911s | Ripper demons camel Warriors |
| 1913s | um I'm trying to think of the other ones |
| 1914s | mammoths we were discussing those |
| 1916s | recently skeletal wyverns like they're a |
| 1918s | bit more |
| 1919s | uh not your traditional Slayer mob they |
| 1922s | have special attacks or things to deal |
| 1923s | with like there are a group of players |
| 1924s | who like that but the majority don't yep |
| 1927s | yep and it's a case of I want for me |
| 1929s | sorry speaking out totally and as a |
| 1931s | player um for me this is what a lot of |
| 1934s | players say is I just want to go and |
| 1936s | slay and chill and not have to worry |
| 1938s | about getting one shot by Ripper demon |
| 1939s | or getting stomped on or whatever it is |
| 1941s | that the mammoth does to you or why |
| 1943s | Vern's dying to put you know it's it's |
| 1945s | like I don't want to fight a boss if I |
| 1946s | wanted to fight a boss I'll go fight a |
| 1947s | boss |
| 1948s | um so we have learned from that and |
| 1950s | we've we've you know tried to make |
| 1952s | Slayer creatures less |
| 1954s | and punishing and intense I guess at the |
| 1957s | same time we still |
| 1959s | do a little bit for it because the |
| 1961s | slayer's 120 skill we don't want you |
| 1963s | know the level 118 Slayer monster to |
| 1966s | fill no different minus it's you know it |
| 1968s | looks like it's not a chicken it looks |
| 1969s | like a wolf or something from a level |
| 1971s | one creature so there is a push and pull |
| 1973s | but yeah I think I feel like we've I |
| 1975s | mean I wouldn't want to be too |
| 1978s | prescriptive about content but I feel |
| 1979s | like we've reached an equilibrium where |
| 1981s | like the identity of the boss is it's |
| 1984s | kind of intense combat content and the |
| 1985s | identity of Slayer is that it's relaxed |
| 1987s | combat content and we've kind of through |
| 1989s | experimentation |
| 1990s | like we could design it completely AFK |
| 1992s | boss |
| 1993s | but why why would we do that like we |
| 1995s | kind of already have content in the game |
| 1997s | that if I'm in the mood to do that I can |
| 1999s | do it yeah whether that's older bosses |
| 2000s | or Slayer or other things if you think |
| 2002s | about that as well gemstone dragons I |
| 2003s | think for me personally are a good |
| 2005s | Slayer creature in that it has a |
| 2007s | mechanic that you can avoid but if you |
| 2009s | don't you're not dead you know like you |
| 2012s | get hurt I can't remember damage let's |
| 2013s | say two to three k Max from hydrx and |
| 2016s | you know you get a dren um |
| 2021s | annoying and punishing but it doesn't |
| 2024s | mean you can't just not care so much but |
| 2026s | versus like Ripper demons and stuff |
| 2027s | you're dead like there's a lot of dead |
| 2029s | scenarios no absolutely and and to your |
| 2031s | point of them being very contentious for |
| 2032s | slow mobs I know a number of people |
| 2034s | there's probably I would call them a |
| 2035s | full sub community of RuneScape players |
| 2037s | that would not touch a camel Warrior |
| 2039s | task with a 10-foot pool so and I'm one |
| 2042s | of those people I have a thousand |
| 2044s | Mammoth kills I got a thousand Ripper |
| 2045s | demons I got a thousand living wyverns I |
| 2047s | have 12 camel Warriors just because the |
| 2050s | level of intensity is not looking not |
| 2052s | what I'm looking for personally what is |
| 2054s | it that you don't like specifically |
| 2055s | accuracy |
| 2057s | um it's just the level of effort needed |
| 2060s | is not congruent with what I'm trying to |
| 2061s | do when I'm slaying I'm trying to slay |
| 2063s | I'm trying to you know play that kind of |
| 2066s | as a second monitor game more or less |
| 2067s | and when you're doing camel Warriors |
| 2069s | you've gotta continually retarget the |
| 2071s | the minions and then you've got the |
| 2072s | tornado that Stacks up and if you stop |
| 2074s | paying attention for 10 seconds it just |
| 2076s | it multiplies by two every tick until |
| 2078s | you have died so it hits nothing at the |
| 2080s | start but it's not designed for you know |
| 2082s | losing any amount of focus and |
| 2084s | I wouldn't say they're a bad Sarah mob I |
| 2086s | just think they're probably not designed |
| 2088s | and that's what we yeah I mean we went |
| 2089s | into that project I think |
| 2091s | like what what is the identity of Slayer |
| 2093s | can we make content that's a bit more |
| 2094s | like this and you know we experimented |
| 2097s | we tested it and I feel like the answer |
| 2099s | has been a pretty conclusive now maybe |
| 2100s | not like let's not make Slayer content |
| 2102s | like this because actually there isn't |
| 2104s | much update for it and we do yeah we |
| 2106s | make sure we provide content of that |
| 2108s | intensity in other ways so I've got a |
| 2110s | follow-up for you then um the most |
| 2111s | recently update was were the Abyssal |
| 2113s | features do you feel they kind of hit |
| 2115s | the mark for what they were you know |
| 2117s | supposed to be with regard to just |
| 2120s | design balancing the level of intensity |
| 2122s | that you know you wanted for the player |
| 2124s | base I could give you my personal view |
| 2126s | yeah yeah |
| 2128s | um I was slaying them for my no |
| 2131s | discredit of course and the contents for |
| 2133s | different players but yeah I was getting |
| 2135s | my key and my trim wreck you know the U |
| 2137s | Chevy |
| 2138s | and yeah I just did not have fun at all |
| 2141s | um I think it's just because the |
| 2143s | teleporting around was annoying |
| 2146s | um I wanted to Revo them but I was full |
| 2148s | manual in them and sorry I was |
| 2150s | formatting them and I think I changed it |
| 2151s | to Revo in the end because |
| 2153s | um I tried yeah it was just it just |
| 2155s | wasn't for me um I don't know about from |
| 2157s | our point of view than if you know any |
| 2158s | more I do I I mean as far as I know like |
| 2161s | we we consider the projects to have been |
| 2163s | successful I haven't analyzed it on that |
| 2165s | level okay I haven't analyzed it on that |
| 2167s | level specifically about whether or not |
| 2168s | it has informed our Slayer design going |
| 2171s | forward I guess thinking about it from a |
| 2172s | high level design point of view like |
| 2174s | like if we talk about like trying to |
| 2176s | find the right balance like like we |
| 2177s | could always design Slayer so that it is |
| 2182s | um always trivial but that could be our |
| 2184s | design philosophy like Slayer is always |
| 2186s | trivial they basically just stand there |
| 2187s | yeah maybe they hit you but you're never |
| 2189s | really in any risk but that feels wrong |
| 2191s | I think we can also say like Ripper |
| 2193s | demons or Cam Warriors your example are |
| 2194s | like no that's also too far the other |
| 2196s | way yeah so actually we want it to be |
| 2198s | somewhere in the middle but whenever |
| 2200s | you're trying to hit a line in the |
| 2201s | middle you are going to get like well |
| 2203s | actually for some people it's not quite |
| 2204s | you know you've got this big broad band |
| 2206s | of like where people where a given |
| 2208s | player would ideally like it to be yeah |
| 2210s | and different pieces of content are |
| 2211s | always going to come down on different |
| 2212s | parts of that line and as you said like |
| 2213s | different content for different people |
| 2214s | yeah I mean I'm actually more |
| 2215s | specifically talking about the Lords I |
| 2217s | didn't like the other two are fine but |
| 2218s | they're lower level right you whack a |
| 2220s | cannon well it's also supposed to use a |
| 2222s | cannon and then you get caught out |
| 2223s | because you can and two of them but |
| 2225s | that's my fault |
| 2226s | um how about you I also think I think |
| 2228s | something with with Slayer that has |
| 2230s | gotten a lot better of late |
| 2232s | um just the addition of the VIP tickets |
| 2234s | and then if you've got the 120 Cape the |
| 2236s | addition of player choice I think allows |
| 2239s | more room for a broader range of of |
| 2242s | different tasks because players are will |
| 2243s | have their favorite tasks and they get |
| 2244s | the opportunity to pick them very often |
| 2246s | and I think it would be very different |
| 2248s | if you got forced to one task and it |
| 2251s | wasn't easy to skip it I think at that |
| 2253s | point you'd have to go back and look at |
| 2254s | camel Warriors and say this task is |
| 2256s | making people stop training the skill |
| 2257s | yeah yeah they would just they would |
| 2258s | just brick wall and never drain Slayer |
| 2260s | again yeah yeah I have a hot take for it |
| 2261s | well it's not hot take it's a question |
| 2263s | I'll give you my view |
| 2264s | you talk about player choice |
| 2267s | um what if just for argument's sake if |
| 2269s | you could pick |
| 2271s | your Slayer task every time but there's |
| 2273s | a caveat that you can't put the same you |
| 2275s | know there's like you have to change it |
| 2276s | five times before you pick the first one |
| 2277s | for example or take boss layer uh sorry |
| 2280s | repo reboots yeah and you could pick |
| 2282s | your boss every day but maybe you get |
| 2284s | less points because we we'd sub it by 20 |
| 2286s | okay good or bad what do you think |
| 2288s | if you offer that as an option or if you |
| 2290s | replaced the existing uh as an option so |
| 2294s | you could pick whatever you if we use |
| 2295s | boss reap as a bet for example you can |
| 2297s | pick whatever boss you like today and |
| 2299s | you will earn 20 less points just to get |
| 2301s | a guaranteed Reaper's choice on the |
| 2303s | first one yes that's very interesting I |
| 2305s | think |
| 2306s | balancing aside I don't think that's a |
| 2309s | bad thing necessarily I don't personally |
| 2311s | think |
| 2312s | people are generally getting a Reaper |
| 2314s | for like a boss they don't feel like |
| 2315s | doing and then deciding yeah I could use |
| 2317s | some more kills on my Max main I think |
| 2319s | for a lot of people and I could be wrong |
| 2321s | with this this is my personal opinion on |
| 2323s | it what I'm doing for a Reaper I've got |
| 2325s | three bosses that I'm open to doing and |
| 2326s | a boss that I'll pick and I get a choice |
| 2327s | if I gotta reproduce I'm taking so like |
| 2329s | I'm open to Ambi I'm open to raksha I'm |
| 2331s | open to Rago and that is pretty much it |
| 2333s | so I'm just gonna keep hitting next |
| 2335s | assignment until I get one of those and |
| 2337s | then as soon as I get one of those I |
| 2338s | don't really I'm not fussed about how |
| 2339s | many Reaper points it ends up being |
| 2341s | because Reaper points if you do your |
| 2344s | Reapers most days you can accumulate a |
| 2346s | lot of them you know very quickly and to |
| 2348s | me I'd rather do one of the bosses that |
| 2350s | I actually am interested in yeah I'm |
| 2352s | interacting with the reason I ask you is |
| 2354s | because |
| 2355s | that's another thing from like talking |
| 2357s | about design in general |
| 2358s | giving the player choice is is a really |
| 2361s | powerful thing sometimes like not giving |
| 2363s | you choice or giving you Choice |
| 2364s | occasionally has its own value like oh |
| 2367s | yes I find and you know I get to pick my |
| 2368s | task is really cool like when you get it |
| 2370s | I'm like yeah I get to take what I want |
| 2371s | yeah um but with with Reaper as an |
| 2373s | example I'm the same as you I roll down |
| 2375s | to zero and then I'm like well there you |
| 2377s | go I'm not doing it well no Reaper today |
| 2378s | exactly run it back tomorrow |
| 2380s | um and there is a degree of the reason I |
| 2381s | pose the question is because |
| 2383s | we we do need to have these questions |
| 2385s | sometimes of like what ifs you know what |
| 2387s | if we did just give everyone the ability |
| 2389s | to pick what boss they want today for 25 |
| 2391s | less would more people boss answer could |
| 2394s | be true like yes because for example for |
| 2396s | me |
| 2397s | if I rewrote down to nothing now I have |
| 2399s | no reason to boss like I might go and do |
| 2401s | something else but if I could just go |
| 2402s | you know what I'll have everyone do some |
| 2404s | rats right now give me the reaper for it |
| 2406s | 25 less as an example and those are |
| 2408s | things that we do again sorry off topic |
| 2410s | but it's just a way of like something we |
| 2412s | think about |
| 2413s | sometimes is looking back at content and |
| 2415s | it's fine it is but could we change it |
| 2419s | um obviously I think I think that I |
| 2421s | think that is quite relevant to the AFK |
| 2422s | discussion in that it's quite it's quite |
| 2425s | similar on the topic of optimization |
| 2426s | right like you give players freedom to |
| 2428s | Optimus optimize players will optimize |
| 2430s | so like like if I if I have a |
| 2432s | hypothetical maximum Choice layer scale |
| 2435s | like where I can always choose my tasks |
| 2437s | then I will always people will always do |
| 2439s | always do the same one test there'll be |
| 2440s | one that's optimal it's not the best |
| 2442s | drops or the best time or whatever and |
| 2443s | then it might be slightly different for |
| 2444s | different players which is good but for |
| 2446s | the most part they'll go read a guide |
| 2447s | and they'll say do this and yeah does |
| 2449s | that fit the spirit of the skill and |
| 2450s | does that have people you know well I |
| 2452s | don't I don't super mind about whether |
| 2454s | or not like because we talked earlier |
| 2455s | about like well if if we end up |
| 2457s | accidentally implementing something |
| 2458s | which is better then |
| 2461s | um that's fine like we don't we're not |
| 2462s | super fussed about that but like if you |
| 2463s | if you imagine like the Slayer skill |
| 2465s | only had one mob and it just gradually |
| 2466s | scaled like if there was a version of |
| 2468s | the same mob at every level and you |
| 2470s | basically just killed the same thing all |
| 2471s | the way to 120. that would be that |
| 2472s | wouldn't be good |
| 2473s | and it's the variety that makes it |
| 2475s | interesting but the more player choice |
| 2477s | that we allow for |
| 2479s | the more that that variety doesn't play |
| 2481s | in so again it's a it's a really |
| 2482s | delicate balance of life and |
| 2484s | Slayer is in a good spot now with the |
| 2486s | VIP tickets and with 120 Cape I think |
| 2488s | there is a lot of choice but it's not |
| 2490s | exactly the same every single time yeah |
| 2492s | but uh related to what you're saying |
| 2494s | about Reaper assignments I think for |
| 2496s | some players I would do my Reaper more |
| 2498s | often I don't think I would pvm more |
| 2500s | often because if I don't get a Reaper |
| 2501s | I'm just gonna do whatever boss I want |
| 2503s | to do anyway but I think for some |
| 2504s | players I'm sure there's a subset of |
| 2506s | players that they roll the dice on a bus |
| 2508s | and that's the boss they do every day |
| 2509s | and they enjoy that and it actually gets |
| 2511s | them to explore other parts of the game |
| 2512s | so it's it's it sort of fits into the |
| 2515s | the same |
| 2516s | discussion of you have to find the |
| 2518s | correct balance yeah yeah so with |
| 2521s | relation to to Slayer and sort of a |
| 2523s | level of intensity we've also got |
| 2524s | Revolution plus plus that was added to |
| 2526s | the game I believe |
| 2527s | 2017 maybe 2019 it'll show up on screen |
| 2531s | but uh with relationship I kind of have |
| 2533s | a hot take with repo plus plus and we |
| 2535s | talked earlier about you know pros and |
| 2537s | cons of anything but it's anime dead you |
| 2539s | know it's accessibility but also maybe |
| 2540s | does it help some people go a little too |
| 2542s | far and one of my thoughts on Reba plus |
| 2545s | plus is it is good overall for the game |
| 2548s | potentially |
| 2550s | um but I think aspects of it are |
| 2551s | probably a mistake and I know that's |
| 2554s | probably not gonna be a popular opinion |
| 2555s | because people love Revo and I enjoy |
| 2557s | Revo as well for a number of things but |
| 2559s | I think the ability to fire off a pretty |
| 2562s | much full-fledged ability rotation with |
| 2564s | no manual input at all I think has made |
| 2566s | it more difficult for people to actually |
| 2568s | learn the game when it's time to you |
| 2571s | know start pdming all of their binds you |
| 2573s | know they're not they're not used to |
| 2574s | using any manual input in combat and I'm |
| 2577s | wondering kind of where you guys lie on |
| 2579s | that I think it's probably a hot take |
| 2580s | that Revo plus plus was a mistake but um |
| 2583s | in my opinion if I were you know able to |
| 2586s | go back in time and I was weighing in |
| 2588s | there I would probably make it |
| 2589s | unlockable so that players get used to |
| 2592s | reboing just your Basics firing a couple |
| 2594s | abilities manually and then at a certain |
| 2596s | point they unlock the ability to turn it |
| 2598s | on and then be able to access those |
| 2600s | completely completely laid-back |
| 2602s | playstyles but yeah where do you stand |
| 2604s | on that |
| 2605s | um yeah |
| 2606s | um |
| 2607s | I think it I don't think it was a |
| 2609s | failure uh sorry you didn't say failure |
| 2610s | you said mistake sorry I don't think it |
| 2612s | was a mistake |
| 2613s | um |
| 2614s | I think it's a way of putting it like |
| 2616s | you you said um it doesn't help people |
| 2618s | get into pvm yeah um I think there's a |
| 2621s | current if I'm wrong maybe an assumption |
| 2623s | that you have to full manual to pvm or |
| 2626s | is that not what you're saying not |
| 2628s | necessarily I I think instead of saying |
| 2629s | to PBM I think that was an assumption it |
| 2631s | makes it harder for one year I think it |
| 2633s | makes it more difficult to get into full |
| 2634s | manual because the players are not used |
| 2636s | to actually manually firing any |
| 2638s | abilities and the difference from |
| 2641s | um you know going from base people that |
| 2643s | fired all your Basics but you're used to |
| 2644s | firing a threshold in the ultimate and |
| 2645s | then tacking on a few other Basics you |
| 2647s | can even do it one at a time I think |
| 2649s | that was a very gradual kind of |
| 2651s | progression towards using full manual |
| 2653s | whereas now the majority of players |
| 2655s | start on a full repo they reboot |
| 2657s | everything and when they want to go to |
| 2657s | full manual I know I I've heard it could |
| 2660s | be very daunting because all of a sudden |
| 2662s | it's just |
| 2663s | it can be a lot all at once and you're |
| 2665s | not used to actually firing keybinds |
| 2667s | period yeah no okay um I think that yeah |
| 2670s | so I think it's a really good idea for |
| 2672s | us I think it's been very beneficial |
| 2674s | um now speaking from like as a player um |
| 2678s | I I learned so I started Revolution |
| 2680s | before I went to full manual now I don't |
| 2682s | think you need to go to full manual |
| 2684s | that's number one like for anyone out |
| 2685s | there yeah I agree with that yeah yeah |
| 2686s | full manual is not needed for anything |
| 2689s | in the game yeah Revolution is like I |
| 2691s | have plenty of friends who just use |
| 2693s | revolution and they've got you know |
| 2695s | finished like 2K Telos with Revo 4K |
| 2697s | easily yeah |
| 2699s | um and there's nothing wrong with that |
| 2701s | so I think that to some degree to just |
| 2703s | on your point if you're never going to |
| 2705s | go to full manual and this is your |
| 2707s | RuneScape like this is how you eat bread |
| 2708s | and butter it's perfect I think and |
| 2710s | that's what I think it's really good for |
| 2712s | um |
| 2713s | I think that speaking personally I think |
| 2715s | ultimates is a bit of a iffy one and the |
| 2716s | ultimates don't really work with Revo |
| 2718s | because they're all situational right |
| 2719s | like why and when you want to death |
| 2721s | swiftness for example you don't just |
| 2722s | want to whack it on your bar unless your |
| 2724s | AFK and content and you follow someone |
| 2726s | there's a huge impact on AF King versus |
| 2728s | if you're manually fighting a boss on |
| 2730s | full Revo you're probably gonna manually |
| 2732s | hit your dead swiftness anyway it's one |
| 2733s | click per minute that's not a huge |
| 2735s | engagement to make but it's definitely |
| 2737s | yeah been a huge huge point in AFK stuff |
| 2740s | because you can actually pop off a fully |
| 2742s | AFK like good rotation that does a solid |
| 2744s | amount of damage yeah yeah no for sure |
| 2747s | AFK is obviously a different ballpark I |
| 2750s | reckon um it has made AFK possible right |
| 2753s | because like if we think back to I want |
| 2755s | to say like 2007 you just think about |
| 2757s | old school RuneScape |
| 2758s | combat was automatic there were no |
| 2760s | abilities right pre-eoc now we have |
| 2762s | abilities what about all those people |
| 2763s | who don't want to press them if you |
| 2764s | don't press them you are |
| 2766s | you're not you're doing no damage right |
| 2767s | like unless you're going legacy mode but |
| 2769s | there's different story |
| 2770s | um so if you just stay in like let's |
| 2772s | call it ability mode EOC mode and you're |
| 2775s | not doing abilities you're basically not |
| 2777s | playing the game right so Revolution |
| 2779s | allowed us to give you that opportunity |
| 2781s | to and like you said it started with |
| 2782s | Basics with encouragement to use |
| 2783s | thresholds and ultimates |
| 2785s | um |
| 2786s | I think they've just given just where |
| 2788s | the game got to I think it was just a |
| 2789s | good change |
| 2790s | um |
| 2791s | do you think mobile had any impact on |
| 2793s | that too because with Mobile coming out |
| 2795s | it's difficult to fire abilities period |
| 2798s | on mobile and do you think that was a |
| 2800s | consideration remember if the design was |
| 2802s | made for that specific reason but it is |
| 2804s | something that is something we think |
| 2805s | about more like |
| 2807s | can is there a way that we can make more |
| 2808s | content accessible on mobile |
| 2810s | is something we take into account I mean |
| 2812s | his Revolution didn't exist sorry for |
| 2815s | Evo plus plus didn't exist like it does |
| 2816s | now chances are we would have made it |
| 2818s | exist now for mobile just exclusively |
| 2820s | for mobile I don't know |
| 2824s | um obviously we try to avoid exclusivity |
| 2826s | between the two because it's one one |
| 2827s | game right |
| 2829s | um and but yeah I think that like |
| 2831s | depends on which side of the fence you |
| 2832s | sit on I think there are a lot of |
| 2833s | players who don't do have no interest so |
| 2836s | RuneScape is a huge game don't need to |
| 2837s | tell you that right |
| 2839s | um and combat is just a part of it it's |
| 2841s | definitely gotten bigger over the last |
| 2843s | let's just say 10 years like bossing |
| 2845s | became a RuneScape thing because once |
| 2846s | upon a time we had kbd and thank you |
| 2849s | right yeah |
| 2850s | um and because of that because combat |
| 2852s | isn't everyone's thing and they want a |
| 2854s | skill like having the ability to use |
| 2856s | revolution plus plus as we're calling it |
| 2858s | I just call it Revolution now right yeah |
| 2859s | it's just it's basically just Revolution |
| 2861s | now yeah um has changed the game for |
| 2863s | them I'd go as far as to say it's |
| 2864s | changed the game |
| 2865s | um because |
| 2867s | they can slay they can they can do basic |
| 2870s | I say basic pvm they can do goddess one |
| 2871s | they can do goddess two with all the |
| 2873s | things we discussed earlier |
| 2875s | um they if they want to expand their |
| 2877s | ability they can Revo um Kara packs and |
| 2880s | zaps and whatever else raptures but they |
| 2882s | will need to put some input in I'm sure |
| 2884s | there is a Revo bar out there that does |
| 2886s | work but at that stage you're probably |
| 2888s | and you can do the kill you may as well |
| 2889s | just press you're getting into crazy |
| 2891s | mode no as soon as you do that like you |
| 2892s | can I've done a fully AFK hard mode Care |
| 2894s | Pack kill with a Revo bar camping a |
| 2896s | shield where like zero inputs and it is |
| 2898s | doable but it's a 17 minute kill like |
| 2900s | there's no actual feasibility to it but |
| 2903s | you could actually do that same with |
| 2904s | basing a raid if there's a bar that I |
| 2906s | have that can just base the whole raid |
| 2908s | with no inputs so that you know if I |
| 2910s | really wanted to in a pinch you could do |
| 2912s | that but you're right that that's not |
| 2913s | you know generally what it's what it's |
| 2914s | made for and it's not you know generally |
| 2917s | what uh you know what benefits the |
| 2920s | player base the most personally like |
| 2921s | it's a it's a similar question of trade |
| 2923s | officers with the anime dead example |
| 2925s | earlier that |
| 2926s | um |
| 2927s | the the your question essentially was do |
| 2930s | you do you think Revo plus plus makes it |
| 2933s | harder to learn for manual essentially |
| 2934s | and I think I see your logic and I think |
| 2935s | I agree with you like it it it's kind of |
| 2938s | like learning a bad habit right it's not |
| 2939s | a bad habit because because revo's fine |
| 2940s | but like you know what I mean like on |
| 2942s | the assumption that you want to do full |
| 2943s | manual you're learning a bad habit and |
| 2945s | it's then harder to break that habits |
| 2947s | and I think I agree with your logic |
| 2949s | there but the question is like does that |
| 2952s | mean it's it's bad in that specific |
| 2954s | circumstance but does that mean it's bad |
| 2955s | overall |
| 2956s | and I'm not sure I necessarily agree |
| 2959s | that the benefits as you've been talking |
| 2961s | about it makes more content accessible |
| 2963s | to more players in a different way you |
| 2965s | outweigh that specifically I mean I |
| 2967s | think I'm I'm absolutely biased there |
| 2969s | because my bread and butter for the last |
| 2970s | 10 years I've been teaching people how |
| 2972s | to pvm and I have noticed a a strong |
| 2975s | decline in people like people having a |
| 2977s | lot of difficulties learning full manual |
| 2978s | especially since Rebel plus came out and |
| 2981s | I think from that |
| 2982s | specific angle it's made it a lot more |
| 2985s | difficult but I would absolutely be |
| 2987s | willing to concede or agree that for the |
| 2990s | entirety of the game an absolute |
| 2991s | positive it's just specific for for that |
| 2993s | one new community it is one thing that |
| 2995s | makes the game a little bit more |
| 2996s | difficult to learn in lieu of a you know |
| 2999s | a slew of other things that make it |
| 3000s | difficult it's also worth like um I'm |
| 3002s | just thinking about the difference |
| 3003s | between free just wherever and when we |
| 3006s | made it River plus plus on the original |
| 3008s | Revo it would rather all basic abilities |
| 3010s | which meant that you you still had to |
| 3012s | understand gcd to be able to use your |
| 3014s | thresholds because otherwise oh it's |
| 3016s | just doing another basic again whereas |
| 3018s | now the ability to do both you can |
| 3020s | you know for example I moved back to |
| 3022s | Rapid Fire and I decide I want a |
| 3023s | snapshot I can press if I miss it and it |
| 3025s | Rapids fine I still get a threshold off |
| 3027s | it didn't use a basic so I'd argue that |
| 3029s | yeah I think plus plus has definitely |
| 3031s | been good for the game |
| 3032s | um I still agree with you on that it |
| 3035s | does make it hard to learn full manual |
| 3036s | but at the same time I think it actually |
| 3037s | helps a lot because if you think about |
| 3039s | just going from Basics to full manual |
| 3042s | you've been you would argue you've been |
| 3044s | pressing your |
| 3045s | um thresholds and stuff this whole time |
| 3047s | but you've been relying on the game to |
| 3048s | do the basics so for me personally when |
| 3050s | I went from Revo to full manual I did |
| 3052s | exactly what you mentioned uh basics of |
| 3054s | revoed I also had threshold Revo but I |
| 3057s | would interrupt I would pretty much do |
| 3058s | it myself for the most part and then I |
| 3060s | turned it off eventually and noticed my |
| 3062s | DPS went down because I was missing yep |
| 3064s | cycles and stuff |
| 3066s | um for pressing it so therefore it was |
| 3067s | using like another needle strike or |
| 3068s | something |
| 3069s | um |
| 3070s | but yeah I mean without like talking too |
| 3073s | specific about it |
| 3075s | um I also wonder if like it's also just |
| 3077s | about because Revolution relies on your |
| 3079s | ability bar being in a set order that |
| 3082s | changes everything as well right because |
| 3083s | if your bar is around the wrong way yeah |
| 3085s | DPS is half as good |
| 3088s | um so for players who have no let's say |
| 3091s | no particular interest in learning it |
| 3092s | they just want to be told what to do you |
| 3094s | know you whack open a Wiki page |
| 3097s | done good to go yeah I mean if you gave |
| 3100s | me the bar and then told me you need to |
| 3102s | press needle strike before snapshot you |
| 3103s | need to do this before that that's like |
| 3105s | cognitive over like load that some |
| 3107s | players just don't want so yeah |
| 3109s | um for accessibility I think it's super |
| 3111s | positive no that's that's good |
| 3112s | perspective and I would not disagree |
| 3114s | with you at all that it makes the game a |
| 3115s | lot more accessible okay well that is |
| 3117s | all the time that we have for this |
| 3119s | episode thank you all so much for tuning |
| 3120s | in once again mods Ryan and Jack thank |
| 3122s | you so much for joining no thank you and |
| 3124s | until the next one |
| 3126s | foreign |