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So usually my MMR range is between 2k - 2.4k. I've been 1 game away from being in masters a few times with D1 and 80+TP. I do believe I'm a masters level player, I am commonly in games with masters/gm players from previous splits and do just fine or even well against them. Yesterday I was a little over 2.1k MMR in D3, and had a bad day of games. I lost a few games in a row and dropped down to 2068 MMR and dropped to D4.

This is when I queue up and get in a game with a player who has played 2 ranked conquest games in their career prior to getting in my game and has 1945 MMR. Their account level is 60, and they picked Au Puch "carry". The game starts, this player buys double chalice, and meditation... that's it. I immediately know this player does not belong in this mid diamond game. I ask them in chat "you still have 900 gold to spend, why didn't you buy anything else? They didn't reply, and there was alot more I wanted to say but I was trying to work with the situation. Au puch gets first blooded on the first wave in duo lane, goes 0-11, deals 7k damage by the end of the game with a terrible build.

I look at his history when the game is over knowing it's gonna show me he didn't really belong in that game. What I find is this player has bought meditation for every single game of Smite they have ever played, the builds look like they are out of a random build generator. He's in Bronze3 for conquest with 1945 MMR for 2 wins, for ranked Joust he has 972 MMR.

The 2 games this player accidentally won to get in a mid diamond games builds were

Xing Tian - Reinforced boots, mystic mail, sold an item (black space) to buy hastened ring, and finish with Typhons fang. + 225 MMR for this game

Medusa - Reinforced boots, Ichival, hunters blessing 3rd item. +220 MMR for this game

I will post my smite guru link if you want to see it or don't believe me, I just didn't want to post it initially because I wanted the focus to be on why in the hell this player is in my mid diamond game, and not on the build/god selection etc of any of the other 9 players in the game which I know would be subsequently brought up.

1 game isn't the end of the world, and I know the game's ranks don't accurately depict player skill by any means, but I play ranked because it's generally more competitive than casuals and for the picks/bans. I've had this happen years ago when I was a plat/gold player because gold MMR is starting MMR for some reason.. but being a player in mid diamond, who's in games with masters constantly, this simply should not happen. MMR starting at 1500 and allowing players to get into mid diamond games after 2 wins is a joke.

And as a side note, this is also a reason why players Smurf. I know I could easily get into masters if I started a new account. You give players the opportunity to play at the highest level the game has to offer within 10 games of making a new account. Their rank may not show "masters" after 10 games but if their MMR goes up that much for a win all they have to do is win 5 games from a new account and then go 50/50 win/loss until they hit "masters". It's actually kind of a joke at this point.

I want more players to play ranked so we have better quality games, but current this system is so sh*t and is literally ruining games everyday because we are assuming all new accounts to be average players. Why is that? And why do we give them enough MMR to skip an entire division after a win?

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over 4 years ago - /u/PonPonWeiWei - Direct link

Originally posted by IPHE7VOM

If you lower the starting MMR, and lower everyones MMR gains from wins/losses, the issues around sorting new players have not changed. They are the same, they will just happen in a more concentrated way, and at a lower MMR.

And if you're telling me that it is a problem that absolutely can't be fixed, and that it just has to be part of the sorting process, then what is wrong with making it happen at a smaller increment of MMR rather than ranging from 900-2.1k?

If this HAS to happen regardless, you would ruin less peoples games if you could keep it at an increment of lets say 900-1400 MMR rather than 900-2.1k?

Why am I dealing with this problem in mid diamond 2.1k MMR? How can I have masters/gms in my games and people who are buying Fatalis Xing Tian who are just barely learning Smite? I've put in the work to get out of low ranks, I know I'm a good player. That type of matchmaking is just unacceptable. Yes selfishly I don't believe I should be in games with them, but neither should the players below me in gold/plat that this same thing happens to. If sorting players is that big of an issue it should be as condensed as possible, not across the entire ranking system.

If you want a Matchmaking system that does the two following things :

  1. Distributes players based on their skill to provide fair matches.
  2. Attempts to maximize the speed at which is does this.

Then yes, this is a problem that cannot be fixed. We can tweak 1 to maybe start players based on some other skill (Their casual conquest performance for instance) but that adds noise into the system that will potentially provide more accurate initial placement but noise gets distributed throughout the curve lowering quality overall. We can tweak 2 to slow people down, but this means people will be at their unintended MMR range for longer. Rather than being pretty confident after 10-20 games and being very accurate at 35-40, you delay pretty confident to 35-40 and very accurate to 60+.

When a player enters the pool we don't assume they are average, instead their MMR really represents our confidence. We have 0% confidence we know their skill so we place them at the center of the expected skill distribution curve. As they play, our confidence rises and we can narrow what we think the center of their skill curve is.

Leaving variance high allows for that confidence value to more quickly figure out your MMR but obviously you experience the drawback. When we have a guess about someones skill we need to test it, and if it is wildly off that match feels off. You reduce the frequency of this occuring by moving players more slowly but now players who have to more quite a ways up or down take much longer to get there, ruining the matchmaking quality along the way for longer.

We have talked about the pros and the cons to changing this up, and if you research other Matchmaking systems often they are trading accuracy vs. feel. Both are important and in general over the last few years we have been trimming back on a lot of the feels changes from the past. As a result quality of matches have gone up and that has shown a strong positive correlation to players engaging in Ranked. It seems like focusing on making good matches even with feels pains has been positive but it that doesn't mean ripping all of the feels changes out is the best possible state of this system or for matchmaking as a whole.

over 4 years ago - /u/PonPonWeiWei - Direct link

Originally posted by ChrisDoom

Pon, I love the insight you provide as always but regarding ranked conquest and joust I’ve always wondered why a minimum number of matches played in those respective gamemodes isn’t an additional prerequisite? I know having a player who has absolutely never played conquest before trying ranked isn’t necessarily common but why make it even possible?

Mostly a matter of the frequency of a absolute new player to Conquest playing Ranked Conquest is uncommon. Additionally any requirement can be bypassed given time. Someone having an account in S4 playing Conquest and then jumping in late S7 has a lot of learning to still do, but they can queue.

You may want instead a "X recently played" but this is a decent undertaking for something that we know statistically doesn't occur often. Could be discussed more though.