Original Post — Direct link

So healers have been a big talking point in Smite for... well they have always been a big talking point in Smite. Anyways you've seen all these discussions in the past months, so let's just get into it.

Why should healing power be it's own stat?

  • Healers in Smite are liked by a vocal group of people, and disliked by a very vocal group of people. The main issue I see with healing is that it is tied to damage. Healers then do a lot of damage while healing a lot. Or they are tanks, and are now very hard to kill because they not only have strong base heals but tank a large amount of damage. There are very few items for healers to itemize into for their healing. There is Lotus Crown, for tanky healers, and Asclepius for damage healers (but that item isn't always very popular.) Of course there is Caduceus as a catch all for physical healers. The biggest issue with healers in Smite I can see is that they don't really need to build any specific thing to better their healing... not that they really can anyway. Making healing power it's own stat will decouple healing and damage, meaning people need to make a choice to deal damage, tank, or heal.

Why would that be better for healers?

  • Healers accomplish many things at once with the builds they have access to in Smite. Or they suck at everything. If healers had their own items that gave them stats and effects focusing on their healing and utility, they could actually build their god to play as a dedicated "enchanter" who focuses on providing direct empowerment, utility, healing and/or shielding to their allies. When choosing to build in this way you will sacrifice items otherwise used on damage or tankiness. There is no reason you couldn't still play your favorite healer as a damager or as a tank, just with this change when you do, your healing is going to be weaker. Healers go through a constant cycle of being very strong or very weak. Hi-Rez has tried many different things over the years, but never making healing into it's own stat to build for uniquely and independently of damage. If it was, high healing could find it's own independent niche, instead of also being tied to high damage or extreme tankiness. Yes, I'm sure there will be ways to hybridize heal/tank/damage items, but doing a hybridized build means you sacrifice an extreme.

Healing as a +1

  • Hi-Rez have stated that they believe healing is a additive to a gods kit, and should not define a gods kit. While I see this being the case on some characters, it doesn't make sense to me when describing most of the characters considered to be healers. Healers are much more defined by their healing and utility then they are by any other feature. Healers have an established player base who play them because they are healers. Let healers be healers. If someone wants to play a healing character as damage or a tank that build path will not be suddenly closed off to them, but they won't have as much healing or utility as they do currently when you choose to play them that way, which is the frustrating aspect of healers for many people; having strong healing and strong damage/tankiness.

How do we achieve this?

  • Healing should scale off it's own stat that directly increases healing and is not tied to damage. Adding items focused around healing with passive effects that provide additional utility when that healing is applied, and thus encouraging it to be timed well when applied, would facilitate this role.

So what roles would dedicated healers play?

  • Dedicated healer builds will probably end up playing either in a role of support and/or solo. They aren't going to play that role in the same way a typical frontline guardian or warrior might, they will be backliners. "But," you say, "supports have to be tanks in Smite." Supports are tanks in Smite because they have never been allowed by items to be anything else. Healer supports work in other MOBAs because those MOBAs have items that allow it. Currently all dedicated support items are stat sticks that provide tankiness to the support and a beneficial aura to nearby allies in the form of more flat stats, other than Stone of Binding, a bridge item. Dedicated healer items would allow gods to play the role of a dedicated healer/buffer, opening up the role to more variety.

How does this help build variety?

  • This new kind of playstyle will open up new ways for people to build a team. You could see a melee auto attack focused god become a viable ADC with the help of a dedicated healer support. You will see increased opportunity to play gods like Ymir and Cab in the middle lane, assisted by a healer rotating solo in the mid game. I'd love to see assassin mids also be viable in Smite as they are other games. You can still use all the old favorites in these roles, with the traditional team comps we have now. This change would not make them suddenly go away. Differently designed comps will do things differently, but not necessarily better or worse than other comps.

But will Smite players be able to build comps around this?

  • Smite for a very long time has had 5 classes with 5 roles, and each of those roles plays a very particular way. But other MOBAs don't have the same rigidness. Smite doesn't have to either. Smite players can already build non-traditional comps, and a lot of gods are now designed to be or played in roles that do not match their class. We have assassins that play support, warriors that play jungle, guardians that play solo, the list goes on. This kind of change, if implemented well, will only facilitate that more.

Will more people play support? Will tanks die?

  • Support is the least popular role in Smite. A big part of that is the way the role is played. Many support items gain their full effect by simply standing in the same general vicinity of their allies. This will expand the options in the support or solo role with a new type of character that actively and directly buffs and heals allies. You will have less setup but much more impact in regard to keeping someone alive beyond CC. Yes, there are guardians who can do that now, but these items will also be open to them to use this play style more if they so choose. More play styles are always a positive in my eyes. And tanks will not die, there always has to be a front and back line in every game, this change just expands they way it could be gone about.

Will this be more balanced?

  • Healers will no longer be able to have the best healing and tankiness/damage all in one package. Healing is hard to balance because it's always tied to another stat, and is always too strong or too weak. Let's separate them. Healers are rarely added to Smite because of their difficulty to balance, but this change which will help to balance them. I could even see this change compounding a new class, with gods from other classes being moved over. An enchanter class focused, and balanced around, buffs utility, and healing/shields. Other MOBAs have more then 5 classes, and this type of class is very popular for people, which helps Smite in the long run. Obviously some gods, or some items may not be balanced right away, as with all new changes. But making this change now helps the game in the long run, helps correct a very old problem, and allows any outliers to be balanced independently.

TL:DR - Decouple healing from power. Allow healers to be healers. Make it so healers don't feel overwhelming when their heals are strong because are also very good at something else at the same time. Allow healers to itemize for their buffs and utility when they so choose. This will help solve an old and frustrating issue that constantly comes back up, often multiple times per year: very overpowered or underpowered healers. This change will add increased variety to the game, roles, and to team comps. This admittedly is a big change, but I think it is time. Healers are subjected to whiplash balance, and most of them being too good or very bad is cyclical.

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almost 4 years ago - /u/HiRezAjax - Direct link

So we saw almost this exact same pitch a few months ago and ponpon wrote a solid and strong response here: https://old.reddit.com/r/Smite/comments/kdvfnn/the_problem_with_healers_in_smite_is_the_lack_of/gfz82cq/

The TLDR of pons comment is:

  • Healing should not be the sole identity of any character or play style. That level of healing is innately frustrating and likely to create unhealthy gameplay, even if it is a "unique" playstyle.

  • So, instead we consider how to make healing "a +1" for gods - something that specific gods of various archetypes have as a differentiator within their role or class.

Generally, we on the design team are not a fan of this pitch for 2 reasons.

  1. This pitch assumes we would be ok with these gods healing more than they currently do. We are firmly opposed to this. Even assuming that gods might have to sacrifice other stats - we strongly feel that a high healing, low damage, low tank playstyle would be universally disliked by players and opponents.

  2. We feel that similar or better results can be achieved through much more clear and intuitive changes.

Another way I like to think of it is - "what does this actually do?"

OP has written a lot of text and a lot of hypotheticals, but very little of this post describes how this would actually change healing in relation to how it currently plays on these gods.

Lets use Aphrodite as an example.

  • Aphro tends to be very high damage and high healing when played in mid and built full power.

  • Aphro can be played in solo as well and tends to be pretty strong there with a hybrid tanky build and some power

  • Aphro is often dreamed of as a support but generally strongly underperforms there

How would this proposed "new healing stat" actually affect these situations?

  • High Power Aphrodite will now need to deal less damage, or heal less because of the item tradeoff

  • Solo Aphrodite would struggle even more, as the hybrid strategy requires damage, healing, and tankiness, and the 3rd factor being added as an item choice would heavily constrain the build or possibly make it unusable

  • Tank Aphrodite could potentially become a support through absurd levels of healing combined with reasonable support-god tankiness - but following our goal of not letting healers do more healing than they are now - this is again a flat out nerf to the strategy.

Every way I look at this pitch I just see it as massive nerfs to every healer in the game. Not only are we nerfing your healing (by changing power scaling to healing scaling) - we are also nerfing you by forcing you to buy 2-3 items to get that healing back.

So if you want to play Mage Aphro and heal roughly what you do now - youre losing 2 or more whole power items to do that - and feeling a huge damage nerf as well.

Why would these be better than simply nerfing specific overperforming gods healing ability numbers (base and scaling)? Because the player gets to decide? But if one strategy becomes clearly optimal, how much do they really get to decide? If 2-3 items are mandatory on the god, how much better is build diversity now really? We also have now introduced a bunch of items that very few if any gods would use, which we generally avoid.

OP also describes "item passive buffs" (like lotus crown i assume) as a big positive for healers to add to their "utility" - But if this becomes a significant part of their desire to be on a team comp - we now have a very equalized application - all healers roughly do the same thing - and we potentially hurt god diversity.

We have been following this subject closely, since well before pons post. And we have a clear action plan, and I can share some results of the current changes. (our plan does not involve healing as its own stat)

  • Brawling was introduced to specifically introduce out of combat healing - and it has. It has also affected the big team healers much more than self healers. There isnt any data to point to "collateral damage" gods

  • We also learned that out of combat healing is not as big of a factor as we initially thought. This is a specifically strong strategy at high level play but it is not the bulk of total healing done. Most healing happens in combat. We still wanted to nerf out of combat healing for those specific high level reasons - but it did not have the desired effect on healing as a whole.

  • 8.1 Itemization changes make it very hard to clearly see or feel these changes. Some new starters have more sustain than last year, some classes are opting into more lifesteal (devos is back) and others are going with less (junglers spamming manikins instead of bumbas)

Going forward

  • We will be looking at the anti-heal items and the brawling stat to receive more balance changes with the overall goal of nerfing healing game-wide more in 8.3

  • After seeing the data and results from that, we will look into nerfing the specific overperforming gods ability numbers. Likely their healing base and healing scaling, but possibly other aspects as well depending on the gods and situational performance of each individual case.

Healing in SMITE has always been strong. Its been a strange battle of community perception along the way, though. For many years we would see constant complaints about how anti-heal was too strong and healer players felt less impactful.

This has never been statistically true.

We are happy to see discussions like this coming up in the community because this shows a strong alignment between the perception (feels) and the reality (stats). When devs and players align we can make changes that people agree with and look forward to.

TLDR Nerf the healers. This is what OP is suggesting anyway, there is just a few different ways to do it and we would prefer something that has more specific and direct balance impacts.

almost 4 years ago - /u/HiRezAjax - Direct link

Originally posted by Lyefyre

damn AJ you beat me to it, I was just looking for the other thread.

Edit: Would you consider the global "not brawling" debuff introduced in 8.1 a success? judging by your post, you're still not happy with healing..

Yes id say it was - its just a much more specific success.

It weakens a specific strategy of healing between fights while the enemy team has to back.

We clearly need to do more to address healing as a whole though, and maybe we were too careful in 8.1 and should have just nerfed it heavily in one-go, but theres a lot of advantages to taking it step by step.

almost 4 years ago - /u/HiRezAjax - Direct link

Originally posted by Blawharag

You know, I've got to disagree with the base assumptions here. Coming from a game like heroes of the storm, where healer is it's own specific role, having primary healers to play against is not itself a boring role to play or frustrating to play against. Some people really enjoy characters like that, and as long as the healer isn't also dishing out incredible damage or reaching tank levels of survivability, it's really not a problem to play against. They become a dive target, someone you prioritize to win a team fight, and they can change the dynamic of a team fight as well, turning it into a longer term conflict of thirty seconds to a minute of straight combat rather than fifteen seconds tops and done.

I'm not saying dedicated healer builds are definitely the way to go, but ponpon's basis for being conceptually opposed to the idea is definitely flawed

Conceptually, across different games. I agree with you.

But this isnt HoTS, This is SMITE. And we dont need to worry about the concept when we have the evidence and gameplay right in front of us.

How would it feel to play against an Aphrodite with MORE healing than she has now?

Why can't we just nerf specific aspects of her damage, healing, and survivability as a way to balance her as a healer? If we just decrease her damage to make her focused toward being a healer - couldnt that create the exact success situation you described without having to rebalance 6-8 gods and create 6-8 new items?

My post today has the goal of getting people to think more about the specific gameplay changes and applications of ideas like this.

almost 4 years ago - /u/HiRezAjax - Direct link

Originally posted by Just_passing_by_exe

Like lifesteal and pen why not add a heal cap for all gods so either hp % or a flat max heal some other way, thereby limiting hp healed overall but not affecting mage dmg and item bonuses. But making it appropriate so that tank healed aren't at a disadvantage. There should be a heal coefficient so damage is unaffected but healing is capped.

You could also change healing entirely and had a sort of diminishing returns to healing so constant spam healing like yemoja, aphro guan and hel cause less healing over time similar to mass spammable CC. This can be altered so it's only Aoe healing affected and any personal healing is unchanged.

Another thing to add is unless you go the new anti healer starter item, your less likely to fight at the start since you will end up increasing their healing if you attack them by removing the brawling debuff of 30%, the original antiheal items like brawlers, divine ruin got pretty badly nerfed at 30% antiheal. People just don't go antiheal since they think they are better off just working with the not-brawling debuff.

You could also just nerf healing values across the board or buff antiheal items and relics across the board so healing meta goes in the trash where it belongs.

i like all of these options more than the "create a new stat and rebalance healers entirely" concept

almost 4 years ago - /u/HiRezAjax - Direct link

Originally posted by Persies

Can I just say I absolutely love when you have detailed responses to posts like this. It's great insight into your thought process. Smite really has such an amazing dev team and it's a huge reason why I play the game.

<3

almost 4 years ago - /u/HiRezAjax - Direct link

Originally posted by Lyefyre

Sorry for asking holes into you here on reddit, but I'm curious if you think that ALL types of healing are still problematic right now. In my experience, people have issues with healing, when it comes in the form of magical abilities.

On physical healers like Horus and Guan it feels like a solid +1, an addition to their kit as you outlined in your post.

I was wondering if someone like Aphro can ever be a "+1 with healing" god without a rework. There's her 3 which has almost all the weight of her kit: Healing and dealing damage. Then there's her 1 which does almost nothing except enable her to heal her target.

in 8.1 A lot of the top winningest gods and top pick/banned gods (so OP via perception or reality) - have high amounts of self healing or team healing

you can confirm this yourself on sites like casualsmite.com

almost 4 years ago - /u/HiRezAjax - Direct link

Originally posted by [deleted]

[deleted]

I don't think id say that - we could plan it for 9.1 or something and make it happen if we really wanted to.

But i dont think its the best design option nor do i think its the best value for our players for us to invest in.

almost 4 years ago - /u/HiRezAjax - Direct link

Originally posted by Blawharag

I definitely see what you're saying, but I think approaching it from a different perspective could also be helpful:

You're right, this isn't HotS, this is Smite. In Smite, we have items, and that's a huge deal. Items are what allow Hades to be played in the solo lane, they allow flexibility in play style. Yes, we could rebalance Aphro to be a dedicated healer, and yes making 6-8 new items would be a herculean effort, but I think it's worth considering the payoff there: Suddenly, builds and counter builds become more important. Aphro building damage or healing completely changes the dynamic of playing against her as well as the best way to counter-build her.

It also has the benefit of not removing old play styles of Aphro. If you play Aphro because you like her damage kit and the healing is a nice bonus, then build her damage with maybe 1-2 healing items like you've always done and your Aphro experience will be mostly the same. If you want to play a dedicated healer though, and you aren't really as concerned with damage, then making the path via items enables that without eliminating the old play style.

I think you are overestimating the value of the build diversity and counter building.

Aphro will still heal enough to merit needed anti heal even if she is going full power in the new hypothetical system.

Full healing Aphro will either be similar to Aphro now but with less damage (same effect as dmg nerf) or too much healing to the point where it feels uncounterable or frustrating.

I just don't see the payoff the same way you do it seems. Maybe we won't change each others mind today and thats ok. We still have healing changes planned so we can see how those go and get feedback over time.

Id like to clarify that im not overly concerned about "the amount of work" - we can plan the time for it. Im concerned that results are far less fun than they sound, and lead to actually more unhealthy/dangerous playstyles rather than improved ones.

almost 4 years ago - /u/HiRezAjax - Direct link

Originally posted by jpoyser2

As part of this post you mentioned that you don't want to add items which few gods use. Why is this? I personally like it when certain items are only built on a select few characters.

Its not terrible for the game, we just generally try to avoid it. It essentially wastes the potential of an item and it creates confusion or mistake scenarios for players like buying golden blade on a god who specifically doesnt need it.

almost 4 years ago - /u/HiRezAjax - Direct link

Originally posted by GollyWhoKnows

Thank you so much for taking the time to respond to my post, I'm honestly a little star-struck. And thank you very much for letting us all know what your current thoughts and plans are moving forward with this situation. I'm not sure how much valuable insight I have, since I'm just some random person who plays this game.

I make this suggestion because I have seen a lot of discussion about it, and while healing is strong I really love healers, and I know a lot of other people do too. The answer to this right now in the short tern is just nerfing healing a lot, but to be honest I'm more attached to providing a lot of healing than dealing a lot of damage when I play these characters. So I wanted to look for a kind of solution where that could still exist. It's interesting to me when you say that high healing with low damage and defense shouldn't exist. To me it seems like it already exists on characters, in addition to one of those other things already. So I'm not sure why that would be MORE frustrating to play against. But, I'm not a game developer, so I really wouldn't know. Also I might be misunderstanding.

Yes this would be a nerf to healers who build full power in the mid-lane, but I think it's considered they need that right now. Anyway it feels like slowly overtime healers are being moved away from being healers and more toward being damage focused. I mean obviously that hasn't totally happened, but I simply feels like that is a direction that is being taken.

My recommendation of making an option for healers to be played more as supports when build that way doesn't necessarily require they do more healing than now, or become tanks. I just think if they could itemize in a way that focused on utility in addition to healing they could be a supportive aspect for a certain kind of comp. Like if I were to give an example of an item I had in my mind it would be like +Healing +whatever moderate stats and a passive that was something like "extends the duration of buffs applied to gods targeted by your ability heals for x amount of time" or "gods effect by your ability heals gain haste for x seconds." Don't pay too much attention to those specific effects but that was sort of what I had in my mind in a broad sense. When I say passive effects, I mean a lot of support items are often simply "stand near this person and give them extra physical protection or attack speed or something." And that isn't something actively done, to me it isn't very exciting, and I think that is part of what makes support as a role unpopular.

It would be a nerf to healers in some ways, but it also has the potential to be a buff, as I see it. Really I think it would just make them more consistent. Focused ealers could find more identity in their healing status, and every other build healers use would have a different sort of identity more focused on other aspects of their kit, be that damage or tankiness or whatever. Now ideally this would be balanced between builds. One playstyle might rise to the top, which will surely happen at times, but other gods have been able to use more than one build to play than one role. I think the best way for healers to do what would be better isolating their strengths and focusing on them, but focusing on their healing in a way that doesn't also just come with making them competitive damage dealers. I just think that if healers can compete with damage dealers, and heal so much too, they would always win out. But this way healers can still be great healers without being competitive damage dealers.

A lot of other games from various genres have some kind of class or role like this. It seems part of this kind of change is that it's simply not a direction Smite wants to take, or maybe thinks the game can. I believe it can and should. I obviously can't say what would REALLY be for the best, but I've been with the game for a long time so all I can say it what I've felt as a player over the years. Healing being perceived as very good or very bad by the community has historically always been a thing. As a healer player, that doesn't feel good. Sometimes when healing is considered very good, and I can only speak for myself here, I just don't want to play because I know a nerf is coming. When healing is considered bad, it can often feel very frustrating to try and use. When antiheal is really strong sometimes an entire part of my kit, the only part I'm really interested in, can feel worthless. It statistically isn't, and I know that, I'm merely saying it can feel that way and that's rough... I'm suddenly healing for nothing at all, as a player it's very frustrating, because other gods don't actively lose the functionality of part of their kit in the same way. (Other than rarer stuff like beads or aegis I guess)

TL:DR Anyway thank you to everyone who has read my post so far, I kind of favor this change because I understand healers need to be nerfed, but love healing as a mechanic and want a solution where healing as a playstyle can still exist and be powerful. This was the best idea I had for where everyone can be happy and and find a role that fits their playstyle. I've seen ideas or sentiments like this echoed over the years so I proposed it. I think historically healers are always viewed as, and viewed as because they feel, great or terrible. That's what makes me as a player feel unless something more drastic will continue either that cycle will only continue or overtime healing will just slowly go away as damage and tankiness are favored in builds and kits. Again, I'm not a game designer, I don't know what's really best. I'm just a fan and this is all my opinion.

Gonna keep this one shorter even though there is a lot here but my main counterpoints

  • I think the type of support you have described will be inherently unviable in SMITE. You need a tank/frontliner. We have overwhelming data to support that. If you are playing a healer+buffer support who is still squishy, you will likely have a higher chance to lose the game (unless you counteract that with intensley strong buffs/heals, stronger than we have seen before)

  • The other types of game you are comparing this too arent relevant to SMITE - LoL and Dota should be the most high priority comparisons. LoL does tend to have supports that rely less on being pure tanks - but nearly all the top tier supports in the game right now are tanks (via op.gg stats) - and they have actively made changes to reduce/mitigate healing in the past, and generally see high healing as a complaint. Dota focuses on more extremes between characters and more blurred lines in meta and roles - but I dont think id say it has any "dedicated healer class/role" - These examples are strong indicators that although healer classes might be fun for MMOs or Co-Op style games - they are not particularly successful parts of MOBAs.

  • Healing has been perceived as weak before yes, but those perceptions were just wrong. Healing was always good, its just hard to change peoples minds. We might not have this problem anymore now that most people seem to know how strong healers are.

almost 4 years ago - /u/HiRezAjax - Direct link

Originally posted by Lusacan

I don't think it's wise to dismiss this so quickly, if healing gets its own stat and hybrid itemization you can always keep it in check. Meanwhile with this "not brawling" system I've seen people withdraw trading hits with the enemy in the mid game because "they'll get healed more afterwards" (and they were right). As of now it is absolutely counterintuitive and tedious.

This situation doesn't occur if you hit the god with anti-heal effects though.... right?

almost 4 years ago - /u/HiRezAjax - Direct link

Originally posted by XBLSynergous

I understand exactly where you're coming from, but your idea pitch here is based on the current items in Smite and how healing works in kits. This could be changed with effort.

For example you could create a new series of hybrid items that have the healing stat on them combined with traditional stats, as well as editing current items to have the same approach. Healing within God's kits would also need to be changed to exclusively work with the healing stat beyond their base healing. Obviously the approach here will need to be well thought out and will likely take a series of balancing efforts, but I truly believe a healthy level of balance could be achieved.

Let's take lotus crown for example, and Aphrodite:

Why lotus crown? Well it's already an exclusive healing item because of the passive.

  • +30 Magical Power
  • +60 Physical Protection
  • +20 MP5PASSIVE: Any god affected by your ability heals - gains 20 increased Physical and Magical Protection for 5 seconds

Aphrodites Healing/damage on her 3:

  • Heal per Tick: 10/17/24/31/38 (+10% of your Magical Power)
  • Damage per Tick: 15/25/35/45/55 (+15% of your Magical Power)

Now what could we change here?

  • +10 Magical Power
  • +40 Healing Power
  • +40 Physical Protection
  • +20 MP5PASSIVE: Any god affected by your ability heals - gains 25 increased Physical and Magical Protection for 7 seconds

We would also change the scaling in Aphrodites 3 to scale off of the new Healing power stat (+15% of your healing power). Essentially this change makes this item give less power, so you are dealing less damage, but with the trade off of now being more healing focused and having better heals while also giving slightly better utility but being less tanky. We are now seeing this particular god become a slightly better healer and utility support, but do less damage and be slightly easier to kill. That to me sounds balanced.

Now, in order this to work in the big scheme of things. We would need a series of new items to truly create balance. This would entail new boots that are more healing specific, a new category of healing items that are explicitly designed like the changes to lotus crown above, and appropriate healing power scaling changes made to current God's that are in the game.

I think this approach makes a lot of sense, and may actually help a healthy burst meta that people more so enjoy. God's that have strong self heals subsequently because they build power for glass cannon damage would now be easier to kill because they'd only be benefiting from their base kits healing without healing power items. This change could also put healing God's into a more support based role as well. Think of Ra with hybrid healing items that give very little power. You would essentially be creating an actual support out of God's that are stuck playing one role because of how binary the current system is.

I appreciate you using some real examples and numbers, i think this helps illustrate the concept a lot better than hypothetical descriptions.

But this doesnt change my thoughts or my key 2 points

  1. we dont want a class specialized on high amount of healing

  2. doing all these changes vs just nerfing specific healers healing or damage has almost the exact same effect. The only downside is the direct nerf option doesnt allow players to opt into high healing strats (see rule #1 though, so this isnt actually a downside)