Original Post — Direct link

Diminishing Returns (DR) is an invisible application that reduces the Crowd Control (CC) duration of abilities if the victim has already had CC applied to them in the last 15 seconds. Recently, TitanForge (TF) "buffed" the affects of DR by "Increased CC duration reduction from 33% to 40% per stack (Max 2 stacks)" and "Decrease the CC duration minimum from .5s to .4s" in other words "CC duration cannot be reduced to lower than .4s through DR affects."

Seeing that there is more and more CC in the game, given the inherit addition of new characters, this would be a good thing, right? Typically it would, if ALL CC was affected by DR.

There are a few CC affects that are not affect by DR at all, most notably Knock-ups/Knock-backs but also includes any channeling ability, abilities specifically stated not to be affected by DR, or polymorph (for whatever reason).

So this means all other CC, when chained together within 15s of another, will be less affective or last for a shorter duration.

That being said, prior to the mid to late 2018, character were seldom given CC that was not affected by DR. However, since the release of Pele, every character since aside from Set, Tsukuyomi and Cliodhna have been given 1 or more CC abilities that is not affected by DR. IMO, that is insane and the DR "buff" will only hurt older characters with older kits that only have a single hard CC in their kit, think Ymir or Anubis. We should not continue down this path on trying to fix DR.

A suggestion to fix:

Have all CC affected by DR. We know from Awilix ult, if you beads mid air you will fall to the ground. We know from recent Shiva nerfs, the height of the Knock-up can be adjusted. Why can't DR be factored in with this concept? If a character has DR stacks and gets Knock-up/Knocked-back, the height (and therefore time in CC) should be reduced.

I can understand channeling CC cannot be DR'd, but polymorph should definitely have DR since it applies almost every CC in one go.

Opening the floor to ideas or suggestions on how to handle this issue better.

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over 2 years ago - /u/HiRezAjax - Direct link

Been seeing this comment a lot and I think its misleading, so jumping in to share some context.

First off, as was stated in patch notes, we are going to be continuing to look into the specifics of the DR rules and make continued improvements to its clarity and functions. That said, some abilities will be nearly impossible to DR because they are driven by specific scripted animations of specific durations.

Also, by this same logic - 10 of the 17 launch gods also have CCs unaffected by DR - This is certainly less than the window of time OP cited, but its not as huge of a difference as comments like this make it out to be. There are many gods all over the game that have non-DR CC's. So plenty of old gods also benefitted from DR nerfs.

I only cite that number to compare to OP, but I also don't think its a strong way to assess CC in SMITE. Simply counting if a god has any form of non-DR CC and assuming that means they got stronger is extremely narrow view of the situation. The context of the CC matters a lot. Is it on an ultimate or not? How important is it to the kit? How much CC does each god have that was affected by DR changes - many have both?

The truth is that this is much more nuanced on how it affected each individual god based on these details of how they use their CC. There are maybe a few outliers like Shiva - who is new and has 2 knockups, or gods like Thor, who rely heavily on their stun combo - but I dont think its accurate to say that this change overwhelmingly buffed new gods disproportionally to new gods.

We also can individually tackle balance for these gods who continue to overperform with these changes. If gods with no DR CC continue to overperform we can nerf them in other ways.

I'll also add that in many cases, knockbacks/pushes/pulls/banishes tend to actually have much higher variance than stun/roots/fear/silences - moving enemies around does in fact CC them, but can often cause your team mates to miss more abilities than they hit. Gods with lots of knockbacks tend to do better at high skill tiers but significantly worse in casual games. Its probably safe to assume that the type of opinion in this post is always assuming high-skill gameplay, but even in high MMR ranked we often see knockback gods performing much lower in win% than most players would expect. The main exception being the "knock straight up" like bacchus flop which is essentially a non-DR stun, and probably one of the best CC's in the game.

Either way, this issue has a lot more depth to it. Im not trying to specifically disprove anything or lock in our future plans. Just want people to understand the extra level of analysis involved and that we want to take our time on it. We feel like this was a positive change in the short term to weaken "chain CC's" which many players find especially frustrating. We knew it might have some strange side effects in the long term, and we will keep an eye on those as we move forward.

Thanks!