Original Post — Direct link

So, today I read a short post on this sub asking for nerfs to all healers.

And I was basically going to write a long tirade on how outside of two statistically overperforming outliers (Ra and Aphrodite), a quick analysis of the data on Smite.gg shows that the rest of healers are either painfully average, statistically underperforming, or too underpicked despite their relatively high w/l to warrant a nerf.

But honestly, while writing that response I thought that arguing who deserves a nerf and who doesn't was a little bit pointless, as nerfing or buffing gods ultimately doesn't solve major underlying design problems, all it does is to take healers in and out of the meta temporarily.

So instead I decided to write this post, in an attempt to explain what I think is the real problem and how it could be fixed.

And after about it for a while the conclusion I arrived to is in the title:

The real problem is that healers in SMITE have never been properly balanced because there's no dedicated healer/enchanter itemization in SMITE.

Currently the closest things we have to healer/enchanter itemization are Rod of Asclepious (which at this point is more of a counter to the absurd amount of antiheal in the game than a real healer item) and Lotus Crown, (which is more oriented towards itemizing like a tank than an enchanter).

So, it's safe to say that there really isn't healer itemization in SMITE.

Healers in Smite are a very problematic bunch of gods as they are in a permanent state of doing either too much dmg and too much healing at the same time (mage itemization), or being f*cking unkillable through sheer defensive stats and heal spam (guardian itemization).

You either build like yout typical burst mage or like your typical guardian, sometimes like an in-between. You don't build like a healer, because the items to build like a healer simply don't exist. This lack of dedicated heal itemization creates three major problems:

  • As I said, healers cannot actually play or itemize towards a healer archetype (aka: fragile and moderate in dmg, yet very high value in their utility), but rather, they are playing as a burst mage that also happens to have a ridiculous heal-utility, or as a tank that happens to have a ridiculous heal-utility.
  • This makes healers extraordinarily frustrating to deal with, because when they are in the meta they are just too good at too many things at the same time. So you end up with healers with ridiculous dmg/mitigation numbers while also pumping ridiculous heal output. Heck this happens even when they aren't specifically meta, all it takes is your teammates not knowing how to deal/itemize against them and suddenly you have a Hel/Aphro/Ra being a raidboss top dmg top healing monster to fight against.
  • This leads to antiheal needing to be overpowered in order to keep healers in check, which leads to the itemization of everyone being limited. It's very hard to justify not to pick up an item as efficient as Brawler's or Divine even when there aren't any dedicated healers or problematic healing in the game.

The way to fix this, in my opinion, it's to take a page of what League of Legends does with it's healers, which basically boils down to:

  • Reduce the power scaling on heals significantly.
  • Increase the power scaling of their damage.
  • Introduce a bunch of items with low stats but that greatly buff your heals/shields or give them some sort of valuable extra utility to be used in-combat. Examples from LoL: Ardent Censer, Moonstone Renewer, Staff of Flowing Water.
  • Nerf antiheal items so they aren't as ridiculously efficient.

This would accomplish quite a few things that I argue would be generally positive for the health of the game and the state of healers:

  • When you pick a healer you now have to make a real choice: go the mage route of dealing your typical mage-tier absurd dmg at the expense of high healing and defense, go the enchanter/healer route of high healing and utility but at the expense of your damage and tankyness, or go the tank route of being very hard to kill at the expense of your dmg and healing. Instead of being able to accomplish multiple of these routes with the same build.
  • Reduces the sheer frustration of fighting healers as now they have clear strengths and weaknesses depending on their itemization, instead of being overwhelmingly good at too many things when they get out of control.
  • Gives most builds 1 extra item slot. Since you are more enticed to only build antiheal as a real counter option, instead of building it regardless of what the enemy team is running because it's just too good.
  • Opens up a true healer/enchanter archetype that SMITE lacks, which would add a much needed gameplay variety to the roles like support, which since it's inception has been basically plagued with a guardian-esque tanky playstyle and itemization regardless of which class plays on it.
  • More distinct itemization routes will probably make it easier to specifically target which aspects of the healers are too strong or too weak at any given moment.

Mind you, I know what I just said it's probably too much to ask for the developers, as it implies re-balancing quite a few gods and designing/testing/balancing a bunch of new items that could affect multiple roles simultaneously. And I can imagine that would lead to a fairly long period of time of balance ajustments and experimentation that could be a nightmare to deal with.

I'm also not saying that my idea is perfect, for instance, one big flaw of my proposed changes for is that failing to properly balance/design just one of the new "healer items" could lead to having a very obnoxius "full dmg + 1 healer item" build that could ruin the meta for an entire patch.

It's a high risk to redesign and implement so many things at once, and they are not even guaranteed to work, I understand that.

That being said, I think that one way or the other something will have to be done with the state of healers in SMITE, as it's frankly absurd that every so often they jump from sheer mediocrity to meta-warping terrors and viceversa depending on the meta.

External link →
about 4 years ago - /u/PonPonWeiWei - Direct link

We have spent a lot of time over the years discussing healers, their role in SMITE, and how best to support them. I think you have done a good job outlining some of the variance caused by healers and an approach to resolve that; but I want to provide some more context of our opinions so you can see why we are where we are with healers.

Lotus Crown was an attempt for a more healer focused item. This item when released was incredibly potent creating what you described at the end as a problem state. You could largely flex this as a one off and make your heals provide super utility while still building full damage. There are likely healthier ways to do this but healing has some core truths that we also try to be careful of. These are simply what must occur when healing is strong.

When healing is too strong players die less. When healing is too strong combat can feel less meaningful.

We often bounce between a Tank Meta and a Burst Meta. While somewhere in between is best, if we had to pick one a burst meta would likely be healthier overall. We tend to see incredible frustration when things get too tanky or passive play is encouraged that results in less killing.

We also see complaints around healers that their Out Of Combat healing can become quickly frustrating. For example, outplaying your opponents and successfully defending a siege becomes less rewarding when an enemy team uses Ra or Hel to immediately reach full health and push you over. While this may feel hyperbolic when options like focusing the healer/anti-heal exist it doesn't fully lessen the negative feeling in the moment. It's one example but we often see pitches for some way to directly impact out of combat healing rather than ALL healing.

Because of the above generalities we are careful with healing.

We balance it towards being a +1 that you bring rather than an identity in itself. If it ever becomes the whole identity the character will likely introduce a high amount of frustration since it directly goes against what we know a majority of players enjoy. Its why we have shied away from creating more "healing" focused items. It pushes healer as an identity in itself rather than being the +1 strength that we feel is its most healthy.

That being said we do still see frustrations around healing. I am unsure what stat you are using but it isn't just Ra and Aphrodite. CasualSmite's ranked API currently shows Aphrodite, Chang'e, Guan Yu, Cupid, Hades, Ra in the top 10 in that order. Sorting only Diamond+ it is Aprhodite, Hel, Guan Yu, Cupid, Ra, Chang'e in that order. I counted 13 gods most would consider "Healers" and half of them make the cut for to 10. Healing is a clear strength that contributes quite a bit in SMITE. I imagine there are plenty of healer mains however that feel like they are shut down or their healing can be completely negated, making what they want to be their identity not even a +1.

 

I think that is really the area to tackle with healer proposals. Making it feel like a solid +1 and impactful where it doesn't create frustration scenarios while tempering the scenarios that do create frustration. This I think would be a summary of the Design Teams goal and how to best tackle that is something we strive to do. It may be something that can be resolved on case by case balance or might need to be more systems level. Creating a new subset of items could fall into the Systems level solution but I think you did a good job summarizing the risks involved there.

I don't really come here offering a solution to what I perceive the core issues to be however; but I felt it would be helpful in these conversations to see where our head space is at on the issue. It is possible that something I view as something true here someone may disagree. Getting it out in the open helps communicate that difference as when we discuss healing we often get pulled in a few directions. Looking forward to seeing the discussion in this thread, and Ill try to stick around and answer any questions that might pop up.

about 4 years ago - /u/HiRezAjax - Direct link

Originally posted by PonPonWeiWei

We have spent a lot of time over the years discussing healers, their role in SMITE, and how best to support them. I think you have done a good job outlining some of the variance caused by healers and an approach to resolve that; but I want to provide some more context of our opinions so you can see why we are where we are with healers.

Lotus Crown was an attempt for a more healer focused item. This item when released was incredibly potent creating what you described at the end as a problem state. You could largely flex this as a one off and make your heals provide super utility while still building full damage. There are likely healthier ways to do this but healing has some core truths that we also try to be careful of. These are simply what must occur when healing is strong.

When healing is too strong players die less. When healing is too strong combat can feel less meaningful.

We often bounce between a Tank Meta and a Burst Meta. While somewhere in between is best, if we had to pick one a burst meta would likely be healthier overall. We tend to see incredible frustration when things get too tanky or passive play is encouraged that results in less killing.

We also see complaints around healers that their Out Of Combat healing can become quickly frustrating. For example, outplaying your opponents and successfully defending a siege becomes less rewarding when an enemy team uses Ra or Hel to immediately reach full health and push you over. While this may feel hyperbolic when options like focusing the healer/anti-heal exist it doesn't fully lessen the negative feeling in the moment. It's one example but we often see pitches for some way to directly impact out of combat healing rather than ALL healing.

Because of the above generalities we are careful with healing.

We balance it towards being a +1 that you bring rather than an identity in itself. If it ever becomes the whole identity the character will likely introduce a high amount of frustration since it directly goes against what we know a majority of players enjoy. Its why we have shied away from creating more "healing" focused items. It pushes healer as an identity in itself rather than being the +1 strength that we feel is its most healthy.

That being said we do still see frustrations around healing. I am unsure what stat you are using but it isn't just Ra and Aphrodite. CasualSmite's ranked API currently shows Aphrodite, Chang'e, Guan Yu, Cupid, Hades, Ra in the top 10 in that order. Sorting only Diamond+ it is Aprhodite, Hel, Guan Yu, Cupid, Ra, Chang'e in that order. I counted 13 gods most would consider "Healers" and half of them make the cut for to 10. Healing is a clear strength that contributes quite a bit in SMITE. I imagine there are plenty of healer mains however that feel like they are shut down or their healing can be completely negated, making what they want to be their identity not even a +1.

 

I think that is really the area to tackle with healer proposals. Making it feel like a solid +1 and impactful where it doesn't create frustration scenarios while tempering the scenarios that do create frustration. This I think would be a summary of the Design Teams goal and how to best tackle that is something we strive to do. It may be something that can be resolved on case by case balance or might need to be more systems level. Creating a new subset of items could fall into the Systems level solution but I think you did a good job summarizing the risks involved there.

I don't really come here offering a solution to what I perceive the core issues to be however; but I felt it would be helpful in these conversations to see where our head space is at on the issue. It is possible that something I view as something true here someone may disagree. Getting it out in the open helps communicate that difference as when we discuss healing we often get pulled in a few directions. Looking forward to seeing the discussion in this thread, and Ill try to stick around and answer any questions that might pop up.

Thanks, Pon! Nicely said!

I'm afk for a bit with the little guy, and Pon probably said it better than i ever could anyway.

Happy to see the community starting such deep discussions! And we have already been thinking/working on this topic already - i love when design + community align.

We will discuss more with olympians and pros and ill be back in this thread later if needed.

There are a lot of different ways to adjust healers, and we will be clear with our goals and our processes when we present anything on this to you all in the form of patch notes.

about 4 years ago - /u/PonPonWeiWei - Direct link

Originally posted by Caesarthepeach

This sounds weird ,but here's one thing I think that helps solve the problem that we have as healing and anti healing itemization. The healing spike from asclepius, or the anti heal spike from things like divine and brawlers make healing just WAY to binary. If your team is scrambling to get anti heal online the match feels terrible, but then suddenly you have cursed ank , divine and brawlers and it just feels like a landslide difference.

Why I bring this up is, the problem with percent pen was very similiar, where the fall and spike in the effectiveness of prots and %pen were just too sudden. Why not try to spread out the anti heal stat amongst some items kind of like what was done with percetage pen, and then introduce new items that have spread out stats that provide % healing bonus as a stat..along with that, I think most "healers" should have their scaling on heals waayyy lowered way down , but you can encourage itemizing specifically into a new tree of healer items that each provide a ramp up to healing increase , instead of just buying rod of and lotus crown , and then going on to build full damage or full tank. I appreciate how open you guys are with your game philosophy and I think having an open conversation about such a polarizing topic is good, thanks pon! :D

I touched on that a little bit; the per fight feeling of your healing can wildly vary from moment to moment. It isn't even about people knowing if anti-heal exists as Diamond+ Healers have a clear advantage. Ff those players cannot recognize when to buy Anti-heal and apply it regularly then basically no-one can (or healers are not shut out entirely but can feel that way).

about 4 years ago - /u/PonPonWeiWei - Direct link

Originally posted by Avernuscion

Well that is interesting. From my perspective I'd have thought being able to tank more in itself among all classes would be somewhat of a feelsbetter as it allows for more reaction and less frustration value as it allows for more counterplay. While games go quicker because players are being deleted, it still from what I'm aware of leaves a sour feeling thing in people's heads that they just got insta-gibbed.

I do however think that healing metas are more frustrating on the visual perception of it being your enemy just instantly stimpacks back to full and I suppose being just helpless to do anything about it? In a sense a heal is a translation of mana to hp over time, whereas if one doesn't have a heal then this mechanic is scrubbed out entirely. If healers also get speed steroids and so on in the case of Shield of Regrowth and Hel's Inspire but also in the proliferation of having items that increase their movement like Doom Orb, Charon's and Relic Dagger, that's also some big frustration values there (you can't kill them because they just walk away from you while healing). Other than Ankh and applying antiheal or having like a Bacchus/Sobek or something there isn't that much answers to healing which means it's more frustrating to deal with a skilled healer. Also being against a healer is sort of asking players to divert their builds and focus on specific anti-healer items also pushes people out of their comfort zone so to speak by lowkey forcing them to counter the healers or get really shaved in the mid to late game.

What I guess I'm saying is that tank meta's aren't inherently bad as it gives people more chances to do things and have this sort of back and forth play, but healers kind of mess up that dynamic by forcing the flow to go one way. Burst on the other hand sort of forces it to go the other way because whoever does an alpha strike with the easiest to use but highest damaging abilities sort of wins overall to the point players then start wanting nerfs on those characters mentioned for deleting others too quickly.

Also from some new player's perspectives I think burst metas aren't the best for them to try and learn the game as well, when I tried to get some new players into Smite they just said "what on earth was that" (referring to Pele's ult) and that they said they didn't have much time to react to it. I did say Aegis Shell etc exist but then they sort of replied by saying that Smite was "well it's kinda fun but damage spikes are too high". I did try to convince them though but they just sorta left it at that. Sometimes I wonder if I might have got more of them interested if Pele wasn't deleting people left right and center (they had the unfortunate coincidence of playing into Pele twice in a arena and conquest game mode I was helping them in). To add to this I think there's generally an awareness that the assassins with the quickest time to kill are the ones that are globally favoured in ranked and are often quickly seen as cheese gods, more so if they don't really have any direct counters (e.g. Arachne kind of floated like this for a time, rekit Thor meta, Nemesis post 2 buff, Tsukuyomi release, Ao Kuang with pre-nerf Hecate, etc).

In final I also want to say that I feel a lot of people play Smite for the characters and also that they don't need to rely supremely high on reactions and massive amounts of awareness with how the game is constructed- at higher levels it becomes more of a noticable thing to keep an eye on things, but generally there's more control in Smite than there is in other mobas like Dota which rely on hotkeys assigned to individual items and their passives. A burst meta sort of goes against that kind of philosophy that draws in players like that because it's like they can't appreciate the game niches and details. With the need for higher awareness is also an increased push for others to win at all costs because of the nature of it, when one side goes wrong there, toxicity stuff goes up because people blame each other for not keeping an eye on each other. Slightly slower games I would say means that the awareness and control stuff is a lot more open and easier going for them to be enticed to play more.

I should clarify burst a bit. In general what I mean is that when players dump their kits into each other, someone dies. Since they have to dump multiple abilities even burst comes out over a few seconds. MOBAs should have a higher time to kill than say a game like Counterstrike by default.

When things get TOO bursty (see old Loki, when you feed a He Bo, etc.) it can become frustrating as you often feel like you cannot play a fight.

Some characters will push for faster responses (if you hear Kuku ult you better Aegis) while others will allow for slower fights but the detrimental slowness is when gods can dive each other, dump 1 to 2 rounds of their full kit, and nobody has died yet. Even if it feels fun to someone who enjoys those types of fights it can be difficult to even end a game in that scenario.

Burst does have a distinct disadvantage as if you aren't attuned to reacting to it (new player as you mentioned) you are more susceptible to what feels like instant defeat. Ideally they are playing against newer players as well who cannot execute a Thor dunk into 2 inhand cancel double taps so they get more time to but it isn't always the case; especially when partying into a potentially higher level match. That's a difficult balancing act as slowing it down for newer players almost certainly introduces too slow of gameplay for core veterans. The solution there is probably ensuring abilities that can burst hard have their proper level of conveyance so a newer player can at least pick up on what killed them without needing to ask.

about 4 years ago - /u/PonPonWeiWei - Direct link

Originally posted by Sinisterniik

Thank you for responding here. It's always helpful to get insights from designers.

What puzzles me is that Hirez recognizes that healers are strong and then continues to buff them. Ra and Guan both recieved buffs recently (and Aphro/others before that). Caduceus Shield was brought in as yet another way to buff team healing -something that was rare for a solo laner to consider up till now. You also changed the healing mechanic in 7.11 so that there's even more healing across the board. Other than Tsukuyomi, the last several gods ALL have healing in their kits going back to Set/Horus.

So while you seem to recognize that healing is an unfun and difficult to balance mechanic, you continue to both buff existing healing while introducing new ways to heal.

I just dont understand the rationale. Adding the antiheal crit item is nice, but it shouldn't be Anhur's responsibility to apply antiheal to an enemy Hel. Contagion doesn't stack with Pestilence, so there really isn't any new way to apply antiheal with a frontliner. Why not antiheal boots or an antiheal bruiser item for 1700 gold?

I guess I hear Hirez say one thing on this and then do the complete opposite time and time again.

We have a few different approaches to balance. In general Warrior healers were not seen as effective and more specifically Guan Yu was not seen as effective. It did not matter that Guan Yu was statistically performing; he was often placed as a very low priority pick across the board.

Ra was in a similar spot until recently, seen as a mid to low tier mage at best. It did not matter that he statistically does well.

We have seen this year that focusing on the perceived strength of the character and how it feels to fight as them and against them in the context of a match is much better than pointing at our spreadsheets and going "We are right, sorry guys".

Gods having healing in their kit is contextual. Healing itself isn't bad; my argument is too much healing is bad. Tsukuyomi's healing is somewhat limited in that he won't find much to Basic Attack for long enough to heal. Set MUST be fighting a god to heal and Horus' heal has very low scaling making it largely flat and his passive requires active combat to heal up. These types of healings are either +1's or are major cooldowns that must occur while actively fighting. I wouldn't say any of these are an "identity" or their main purpose on a team. In Horus' case if we were to improve these heals I do think we could easily fall into the territory above where it is too strong.

So taking Horus as a small example, lets say people felt he was underwhelming and wanted a buff. Healing would probably be one of the things we focus least on. His current healing feels like a +1 and not something that can create problem scenarios. I think significantly buffing his healing would be contradictory to the above post and push him in an unhealthy direction.

about 4 years ago - /u/PonPonWeiWei - Direct link

Originally posted by Xaoyu

When healing is too strong players die less

thats... the point ?

Why would anyone play healer rather than a pure damage dealer if he can't get as much value from his healing as from a potential higher burst damage ?

A dead enemy can't hurt me. So if i can't stay alive thanks to my heal, how can being a healer be as good as just dealing more damage ?

You created the problem by making your playerbase entitled to get kills quite easily : someone is out position he just dies. and everything that would prevent that death is considered as frustrating and game breaking.

The healer role existed in a lot of other moba (multiplayer pvp games in closed map) and people were used to deal with it. It was just part of the culture. "Focus the healer !"

The whole heal-anti heal thing in Smite is an articifical feature. Strong heal abilities are here to give an impression of kits diversity and anti heal is here to nullifie it and keep the game in it's basic mechanic -> we used our abilties on you therefore you must die.

Anti heal items are way too powerful to not be automatically pick even to just counter lifesteal.

The whole thing doesn't make sense.

Yeah, that was the point. I wanted to make it clear what it means for SMITE when we turn the healing knob up across the game.

Taken to its extreme, imagine a god that can ONLY heal. That god existing in that match would have to significantly reduce the kills to be considered even remotely effective.

My major point was to the original poster. He was pushing for healing to be its own identity supported with a slew of items. This turns the the knob up across the game by default. It must result in less kills; there is no other possible outcome to that proposal.

I think there are players who would 100% prefer that type of game. But we have to decide if that is the type of game most players would prefer and we have some historical evidence and we have made choices from the beginning of SMITE that tend to push the game in a different direction. The direction of SMITE has also changed over time as the design team refines and adapts our goals based on player feedback and how we evaluate our changes. I mostly came here to explain where we currently sat on healing to inform discussion.

How fast players die, how punishing should mistakes be, how supported should a healer archtype be? I think these are all fine questions and some players (and I imagine designers) could answer quite differently. My post doesn't fully go into the full history but rather summarizes our current opinions.