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Sorry for being arrogant, but I'm very confident in these ideas that I'm tagging /u/proletariat_andrew

Talent system needs rework.

The problem with current system is that the restricted pools and few points cause it to lock into certain few optimal builds. As we saw a few months ago, a single talent change (Recovery nerf) can reshuffle the whole deck. You kind of have to choose one of the optimal combinations and can't quite aim towards certain kind of build if the pieces don't happen to fit together. Even if you'd like to make certain build, it's either impossible (missing 1 point) or simply not providing as much value as some other build.

The choice-exclusivity of the talent pools is a weird thing. While it's nice way to organize the system and give each individual talent some flair of belonging to a category, it just arbitrarily makes some combinations possible and some not. While it could potentially be used to nerf overpowered synergy, I don't see how it's doing that. For example, you just can't pick Vigor together with Focused Mana for no particular reason. Or what if you wanted a regenerating shield on a DPS build (Fortitude+Fervor)? Meanwhile, Vigor as obvious synergy with Recovery, making Recovery make even less sense to use alone. Basically, the talent pools don't make sense. I'm not sure what should be done to this part, as simply putting all talents in one pool would be kind of... boring?

Part of the problem is the small number of points, which makes pricing very imprecise. This together with the pool restrictions has caused the effect of talent costs having to be adjusted to control what kind of builds are possible instead of actual value each individual talent brings. For example, according to number of points alone, Fervor is 50% more valuable than both Focused Mana AND Recklessness, which is obviously not right, but it works because the balance is based on choice-exclusivity and possibility of certain combinations, not value. If the system were to be changed into something less restricted and more value-based, most talent prices would probably need to be reconsidered.


How I see the core idea a talent system: Each talent has its inherent nature that fits certain builds and playstyles. For example, the characteristic of Focused Mana is most valuable to builds with occasional shots, such as Frostborn or a stealth Toxic assassin, while Fervor specializes in continuous spell spam (especially useful on Wind and Lightning). Recovery suits builds that draw out fights, such as Toxicologist that may often slip away with stealth or maybe tempest that flies away in the air. Fortitude is an anti-frost shot and stone talent more than anything else. Wouldn't you agree?

Well, the problem is that certain combinations simply being more valuable in general takes priority over whether a talent fits into a build. So, I for example, end up taking Focused Mana on Tempest because it gives some damage, and (before nerf) Recovery on Pyro because it gives a lot of defense, even though it has nothing to do with my playstyle, which is certainly not drawing out fights on Pyro. Similarly, there are filler talents (Dexterity, Finder's keepers) you end up picking not because you would specifically need it, but because there happens to be that sized hole in your build. Or, if you wanted Fortitude to counter frost shots, you can't just incorporate it into your build, you have to throw everything out of the window and build around it.

As a combat game, all additional offense and defense increases your likelihood of winning an 1v1. So, usually, you just end up choosing one of the best talent salads that bring as much general value and hopefully have synergy with your playstyle.

Basically, the current system is just too inflexible and does poor job at serving its purpose of build customization in a meaningful way.


How to fix it:

1. Make pricing more granular by increasing both costs and available points, to make it possible to price Talents properly according to the value they bring.

2. My main idea to eliminate the problem of surplus/lack of points and builds locking into few viable combinations: Make it possible to spend more points in a single talent. You would have a talent with its base cost and ability, and then you could have an option to add 1 or 2 more points (in current pricing) to it to further beef it up. The benefits of this would be:

- You could choose mainly talents that actually make sense in your build, without filler/extra talents and have all your points spent.

- Any combination of talents could be viable and equally valuable (as long as they make sense in the rest of your build).

- With surplus points of your build, you would get to choose what aspect to beef up. For example, if your build has Fervor, and Runic Fluency and some surplus, you could choose to get a little more attack speed or a more cooldown reduction for your runes. More choice in building = good.

- This would increase build variety and make more specialized builds possible. Current maximum potential of talents is a bit stale in my opinion. For example, you could make a hyper aware and mobile slippery build with Foresight and Escapist+2, (assuming that boosted Escapist would also increase the non-combat movement speed). Or what about a ultra reckless naked Recklessness+2 stealth build that would leverage Recklessness' unique point of giving high value when not wearing armor (possibly paired with Fervor or Focused Mana)?

Even with just current talents (repriced to correspond their value), this would open up SO many new possibilities that simply aren't possible or viable due to inflexibility of current system, and would make talent choices feel more purposeful and satisfying. I mean, why would the only possible glass cannon build have to be a weird salad of conditional boosts? Why shouldn't you be able to just spend more points on attack speed if that's what you ultimately want and leads to approximately same result?

Something I need to emphasize is that pricing of levels for certain talents could be difficult and not very obvious, you can't just throw some numbers in. For example, Fortitude gives a shield that regenerates in 30-60 seconds. So, (with the current pricing), what would make it turn from worth 2 points into worth 3 points? Giving two shields would be too powerful, and while lowering the cooldown would be useful, it doesn't increase its effectiveness in fast fights. So, the cooldown might have to be reduced to like 15-30 to be useful for drawn out fights. Similarly, Runic Fluency gives additional rune charge, so an extra cost might reduce cooldown, which is quite different thing. The value of cooldown reduction would have to be considered separately. For damage modifiers and stat boosts value calculations are simpler, but you might have to take into consideration overpowered synergies when going to more extreme end. Generally though, I think modifiers should give about same value per cost.


Side mention: In general, add more utility talents. Most talents simply give you more damage or make you more beefy in one form or another. In practice, this allows you to adjust time to kill suitable for your build, which is a good option to have, but when most of the talents are for just this one variable, it's lack of variety. The addition of Foresight (new more aware playstyle) and Ambidextrous (opens a plethora of combat and utility options and combos) are a good start.

TL;DR need more salad and beef

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almost 4 years ago - /u/ogles_proletariat - Direct link

Expect a pretty significant shake-up of Talents in Chapter 2. ;)