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VALKING.GG just released Ranked Distributions as of Patch 3.0 and I was wondering what the general consensus was. Personally I believe that having ~77% of players in Silver and below, although probably making the quality of games at higher ranks better, creates an incredibly frustrating and chaotic environment in the lower ranks, which is where most new players find themselves.

I mainly only play with friends who are new to tactical FPS's and FPS's in general, and they can get extremely demotivated and tilted simply because of the immense skill range there can be in bronze-silver. In their eyes it just feels unfair and unfun. Do you think these things are related or not?

Do you think the current distributions are a good balance? Or does RIOT need to make some changes?

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over 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by TimeJustHappens

Have Riot ever commented on why they choose to make Silver the average rank?

No, it is something I have brought up over the years in both the Valorant and League of Legends communities, but not garnered a dev response. There's not really an argument either way which is healthier, but it definitely would help to have commentary from someone like /u/EvrMoar who knows the ranked ladder better than anyone - perhaps he has an opinion as to whether Riot is happy with the current distribution curve compared to other games.

To start, we don't balance our ranked distribution based on what League is doing or their system. While I do talk with their designers, the Valorant team believes in the decisions from my team to do what we believe is the correct distribution for Valorant.

There are two outcomes I'd like to hit when setting our ranked distribution:

1.The community can start to paint a picture of skill related to that rank; "That was a Gold play", "That player has the crosshair placement of a Bronze player", etc.

2.Climbing ranks feels like you've increased in skill to get there, and by getting better at the game that rank increase feels meaningful. This prestige can also be seen in the population % of each rank, especially at the high ranks.

So with the above goals in mind you have to decide on 1 of 2 ways to balance your distribution:

1.You balance based on MMR, so every rank is even. For example; Iron = 500, Bronze = 600, Silver = 700, Gold = 800, etc. Because you use 100 MMR between each rank, that means a silver playing against a bronze player would be the same skill difference of a gold playing a silver. This makes it so as you climb you feel like each rank has a similar amount of skill difference to them.

2.You balance based on populations %'s and wanting each rank to have a certain amount of players in each rank.

Personally, I'm a bigger fan of balancing based on population than on a static MMR number that's the same for all ranks. You could actually get pretty close to the population %'s you want for each rank if you did a static MMR system and worked out the math. But again, I'm a bigger fan of balancing based on population %.

The reason I like balancing on population % is that I think it's easier to digest than MMR, especially if your MMR system is not forward-facing(like ours). How are players talking about our system? When I talk about my rank I often like to say "I'm in the top x% of players when I'm Diamond", and I know others who do the same. So we balance the system how players talk and think about it. There are some other reasons, but I'm dragging this on a little too long.

Now, why is Silver the center point? Silver "feels" like the center point of most ranked systems. When I've played games in the past Gold has always felt like the first step into the higher-skilled player pool and I want to keep that feeling. Silver should feel like "I made it to the middle of the pack" and going above that should feel like climbing above that group. You could also argue that this thought of silver being "Middle of the pack" can be seen in society or other games.

As a designer, I'm very focused on the player experience. Above I called out, when playing other games, I've felt like gold is starting to get into the higher skill pool. This is super important because players coming from other ranked systems often have expectations or ideas of what the ranked distribution should be. So I combine what I believe is best for the community, what players expectations are from playing other games, and we looked at League because it's another Riot game players may be familiar with. Obviously, Gold in league is a very important rank because that's where you get your ranked skin, so it just reinforced my belief that I wanted gold to start to feel "Above the pack".

I also like the higher ranks having a smaller population % because it feels very prestigious to get those ranks. Ranked is about improving your skill and being rewarded for doing so. I haven't been a huge fan of systems where the higher ranks become a hangout spot for a large group of players. You also want to take into account match making pool(so ranks aren't too thin). You also don't want ranks to have too big of MMR spreads, then ranks feel bloated with players of different skill. There are also some data considerations, and other small factors but I think talking about the player experience paints the best picture on why we ended up where we are.

This post brought to you by 1am EvrMoar wanting to answer /u/TimeJustHappens, because they have been such a positive force in the community. Seriously thank you for all you do, I often will get to a post and see you helping players out with questions they have around our systems. This post was written quickly, and I'm sleepy, so sorry for being a little all over the place but I wanted to answer because it's a fun topic!

I hope everyone is having a good first Act of the new Episode. Thank you all so much for making me feel welcomed in the community(I just hit 8 months at Riot!). I'm excited for the next year, and all the future Valorant content we will get to experience together!

over 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by Method320

Silver should feel like "I made it to the middle of the pack"

The problem with balancing for population, is that it makes silver an enormous cesspool of varying skill. I was in silver briefly last act and managed to get out of it, but while I was in there, every game felt like a dice roll. Either my team would get destroyed, or my team would do the destroying. Some blame this on smurfs and maybe theres something to that but the bulk of it, I think, is because you guys put everyone in Silver. Even low gold has this problem. It wasn't till I was in gold 3/getting low-mid plats in my games that things started to feel more fair.

The forward-facing rank doesn't determine the matchmaking, or skill difference in your games.

We could make 80% of all players be silver, but you would still get matched against the same players around your skill. So the games feeling like a dice roll isn't due to the rank pools we chose.

I think it's actually a good thing that you started to define plat as "games felt fair". That means you are seeing a difference in skill when climbing ranks "Plat feels different then X rank" are statements we want to hear and why we balance distribution this way.

I think lower ranks can feel chaotic to some people who expect a certain way to play, and players are often very swingy in skill. I think this leads to believing there are smurfs, or you run into a cracked player, in lower ranks. Players in low ranks play in lots of weird ways, that throw players expecting a certain way to play the game out the window. Also some players only are good at X agent, or X map. There are players that are Gold when they play Jett, or play Haven, but are only bronze when they play something else.

Also, because players dry peak and just kind of take duels in lower ranks, sometimes players just naturally counter each other. It's very common to have players stomp teams and not know why, just because they are pushing and the enemy team doesn't know how to handle it. Or, because lower ranks are very swingy in skill, some low-rank players just have an insane match.

So the idea that games feel a dice roll are more about match making, the players around your skill feeling swingy, and every once and a great while(it's a little overblown in how often it happens) you run into a smurf. We always match you around players in your skill. I believe lower ranks feel less structured because those ranks just have less structure in how to play Valorant(which is why they are lower ranks).

over 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by IatemyBlobby

I’ve got an anecdote about this. I (at the time was gold 3) found a silver 3 in my lobby who top fragged. His account had several expensive skins, so I was convinced he was not smurfing. He was a chill dude, so we added him to our 4 stack. His career was full of him, being silver, in full gold lobbies. He plays very well too, able to match mvp a significant portion of his games.

I brought this up because I think this is an example of why rank and matchmaking should be related. A player consistently fighting against and beating golds should be in gold. He was good at the game, but not being rewarded for it.

edit: this was last act, where you lost as much mmr for a match mvp loss as you can gain in a win. He had many lost match mvp games or games where he finished top half, which effectively canceled out all the games he won.

Your ranked gains are directly related to your MMR. And after around 30-50 games you will converge at your MMR.

That's why if you maintain a 50% winrate(sometimes even less) as a silver player playing against golds, you will climb to gold. Your gains/losses are multiplied a specific way when your rank does not equal your MMR.

I've talked about this a lot in comments, on why we choose a system that isn't 1:1. But in the end, if we did a straight-up MMR system it would still take 30-50(sometimes more) to get to your actual rank. Getting better at the game, and raising your MMR, is the only way to climb.

I'm willing to bet that Silver 3 was in the middle of climbing, and climbing would look like that in any skill system. If he's winning and match mvp'ing the system will keep pushing him up and up, because rank is a ladder and you beat people above you to climb.

If we put you in Plat after placements, because that's the exact middle(or top) of your MMR range the system thinks you belong, there is a chance we could be very wrong and you just end up demoting over and over. It becomes an awful experience just because we assumed your rank incorrectly. It's better to underestimate and have players prove themselves upwards, than be wrong and have them fall because of our mistake(or a few lucky games).

I definitely understand the sentiment, but no system even a direct MMR as rank system will give you your actual rank after a small number of games. In that regard, we aren't very different than a straight-up MMR system, and your MMR is what determines your rank and is tied directly to it.

over 3 years ago - /u/EvrMoar - Direct link

Originally posted by VincentStonecliff

Man explaining how silver is now middle of the pack makes me feel like my climb from bronze 2 to silver 2 is just redistribution and not be getting better over the past few months lol

Silver has always been the middle of the pack for the most part. You've definitely gotten better! The more you play, the better you get. It's just a question of are you getting better, faster, than those around you(that's how you rank up).

It's not just about the rank, it's about the plays and friends you've made along the way!